NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

[NihilisticNinja]

I'm sorry that I've apparently offended you, that is not my intention. I do agree that my posts may come off as a bit aggressive and even abrasive, that is simply my playstyle. I'm honestly not a mean person IRL, so I'll try and tone it down a bit. Let me try and rephrase my questions, then.

What hangups do you have with the rack wagon?
How am I not processing the content of your posts? (Oh, and how do you feel justified attacking me when you just accused me of misrepping you without elaborating? Ok, sorry. Being a bit snappy again. I just HATE IT when people attack me without providing justification.)
Why are you not voting shotty?

[Candy Corn Vampire]

Ninja you certainly are...motivated.

I haven't read the thread in depth enough yet, but how did there become a large consensus on rack since I left? He hasn't made any new posts. Or was that one post I cited as scummy enough?

[rack]

This post, and all posts up until now, are me, Head A.

Head B is supposed to be coming along soon to extract us from the shitstorm I've managed to cause.

And no, we aren't revealing our heads, so get over it.

[redFF]

I don't know why, but your posts read as annoying. They cause this instinctive "ugh" reaction.

[redFF]

This post, and all posts up until now, are me, Head A.

Head B is supposed to be coming along soon to extract us from the shitstorm I've managed to cause.

And no, we aren't revealing our heads, so get over it.

hey dog instead of waiting on your other head to save your ass, how about you do some scumhunting or something.

[The Mini-Librarian]

This post, and all posts up until now, are me, Head A.

Head B is supposed to be coming along soon to extract us from the shitstorm I've managed to cause.

And no, we aren't revealing our heads, so get over it.

Head A. I want reads now.

[Macros]

I'm confused, this head a and head b, does this mean rack is an alt controlled by to members?

[NihilisticNinja]

I don't know why, but your posts read as annoying. They cause this instinctive "ugh" reaction.

I assume that was to me? I'll try and cool down my attitude from now on. Rereading, I agree that I tend to be overaggressive. Need to calm down.

rack, Psyche- Any reads?

Macros- yeah, rack is an alt.

[mastin2]

Broken up post, for fear of 500 error.

PART ONE: INTRODUCTION:

So I'm going to attempt to explain my reads logically. This...probably will not go well. I'll do my best, though, since, well, I really want to push myself to be more logical, and play less irrationally.

(Given that I'm up against Khan Man--who I've never won a battle of the wits against--this actually will be more of a mental challenge than any other game could offer me. I can throw my weight around when needed. Heck, I might even be able to get him lynched despite having the objectively-weaker argument, because I'm quite charismatic when I need to be.

But I wouldn't have grown from it at all, as that's what I do in all of my games, getting people lynched by pushing hard and aggressively, rather than doing any real convincing with logical arguments. So I'll at least try to use logic, even though it's probably a losing battle. How else can I grow, other than by fighting against someone I'm hopelessly outclassed against? I certainly don't get better by pounding against someone who's worse than I am. Anyway, enough rambling. To the point...)

[mastin2]

PART TWO: STRONGER TOWNREADS--

Town

:

(Roughly ordered strongest to weakest.)

redFF

:

I have a super-secret tell that red tripped in one of his posts, which makes him (to me) almost confirmed town, as I canNOT see it being faked by him as scum, and it seemed quite legitimate. (Not the best start for me being logical, given as how I can't explain by showing you which post or why it's a towntell, as it wouldn't be a supersecretz towntell if I told you everything about it. )

His posts also are quite reminiscent of what I remember of his townplay, so that also helps things out.

scooby

:

I had a townread on all three of our last-to-confirm players before scooby had even posted, because of the interactions which had transpired already in-thread. This alone, however, wasn't what earned scooby his spot (as it amounted to little more than gut, even to me), however--what makes scooby a relatively strong townread is people's willingness to attack scooby, a sure sign that he actually is town.

In particular, Khan's passive attack against scooby here:

Pine... You know better. There is scum motivation in avoiding posting content until you see where other players stand on issues. scooby is deserving of the pressure that The Mini-Librarian is trying to exert.

...Was quite discouraging to any thought of scooby-scum.

shotty

:

Much like scooby, this townread is less based off of what shotty has done, and more based off of what others have done. (It's the way that was recommended to read VIs in one of the threads I browsed in MD. So this was actually a piece of advice that I HAVE incorporated into my play.) The willingness of at least a quarter of our playerlist to lynch shotty (I haven't done an exact count on the number willing to lynch him, but I do believe it's a significant amount) strongly suggests that shotty is in fact not a scumlynch. (That, or he ticked off his buddies THAT badly in the scum QT already. )

Lady Lambdadelta

:

Admittedly, I don't really know LLD's playstyle that well, despite having been in at least two games with her. (Probably more.) So I can't really say for certain that this is her townplay. But her posts definitely sent off a townvibe overall to me. That, combined with her interactions with Ninja and drmy (we'll get to those two later) among others make her a relatively strong townread.

Nero Cain

:

I'll admit, Nero's posts give off a bad vibe, but a few things do place him firmly in the town category. For starters, there's his willingness to antagonize a player. (In this case, HezLucky.) As scum, that just brings unnecessary attention to oneself, and potentially creates problems for them in the long-run.

Furthermore, there's also the fact that multiple people seem to be expressing early suspicion in him. Yes, it's a tell which normally applies to VIs, but I think in his case, it applies as well. He's basically painting a target over his head, which reads "EASY PICKINGS". His play comes across as being weak enough to be attacked, but due to his veteran player status, has none of the fear scum'd have from attacking a VI like shotty.

To give specific examples of scum taking advantage of this, you need look no further than Khan:

@Nero Cain -
You made the argumentum ad populum that drmyshottyizsik is a "well-known VI", then tried to shift the burden of prooving your own assertion onto NihilisticNinja who seems legitimately confused by your behavior. And so am I. If anyone is drawing out the argument and making it "tedious and a distraction" it's you. You are acting scummy and shifty for no concievable reason. I looked up and found a game with both you and drmyshottyizsik in 2 minutes, why can't you?

(Which is a reverse of his original initial townread), and NihilisticNinja, whose ISO is half-devoted to Nero.

All of this combined makes Nero among my stronger townreads, despite my initial doubt of him.

[mastin2]

PART THREE: WEAKER TOWNREADS--

Librarian

:

Mostly based off of meta, I'll admit. Librarian and I just finished a game where we were scumbuddies. In it, both Uber and I were aggressive, and Librarian chose to be more conservative to create a contrast between us. (It worked; Librarian was a legitimate townread of mine along with most of the town until lylo where POE began to suggest him.) This game, he's appearing far less so, showing aggression.

This doesn't necessarily make him town (if he has conservative scumbuddies, it'd make sense for him to not be conservative himself), but it's enough to have gotten him a townread at this stage in the game.

Junpei

:

Another case of a supersecretz towntell I found for him. It's not that strong of one, but it's strong enough that based off of what I've seen of Junpei, he's got a spot on my townlist.

Pine

:

Another

case of a supersecretz towntell, but this being Pine, I can't really be certain of it. I've always had trouble reading Pine, to the point where he's normally got his own category of "PINE". As part of my effort to become the new me, however, I need to shake my bias towards him and think things through a little more objectively. I can't tell quite yet (given the early nature of the game), and most likely will need to look at his interactions closer along with the nature of his posts' tone, but he does kinda give off a townvibe overall, combined with the tell to make him--albeit weak--a townread of mine.

Candy Corn Vampire

:

Mainly earned this spot due to Ninja, like vijay and Maxous below, but CCV's interactions with Ninja are stronger. (Of note, however, is that while CCV is the strongest town of the three if Ninja's town, he's also the strongest scum if Ninja's town.)

vijay

:

I'll admit--vijay looks incredibly suspicious to me. Then why is he a townread? Purely for his interactions, in this case, with Ninja (and to some extent, drmy).

Maxous

:

Like vijay, only more! Or, well, in this case, less. As in, less of a townread. His posts give me a bad vibe, but his interaction (Ninja, again) sorta suggests town.

Benmage

:

His interactions with Khan make him weakly leaning towards town. His unintentionally playing also added a slight towniness to my read on him, but I have to say, overall, he's probably my weakest townread. Well, of people having posted, that is.

moaner and sorgster

:

Like with scooby, they started off as gut townreads. They remain gut townreads.

You'll note by this point that a LOT of my reads are based off of Khan and Ninja. (To some extent, drmy as well.) Which I myself lampshaded. Over 40% of the playerlist I have reads on come at least partially from around 8% of the total playerlist.

Now with that out of the way...

(Disclaimer: All further sections in here are either out-of-date or incomplete, but I figure I might as well post 'em.)

[Nero Cain]

Nero- what are your current reads?

shotty is a vi. both of them.
pine and mastin are lovers.
thar be scum in NN, KK, LLD, Psyche, jason,mage
redFF is a jew.

[mastin2]

PART FOUR: NULL--

Null

:

jason

:

Can't read him, yet.

HezLucky

:

I've seen Hez as town, and I've been linked to his play as scum, but I can't really say that I remember what his play was like. He kinda gives off townvibes, but I'm not sure, yet.

Macross, Firestarter, and Praetyr

:

There's nothing to read. By POE, I'm strongly beginning to suspect at least two scum in them, though.

rack

:

rack's posts instantly gave off scummy vibes, for much the same reason that Ninja's did, which CCV said best:

These questions don't really need answers and more amount to him trying to think of things to say rather that saying things he thinks needed to be said.

That was my thought, exactly. However, I also had the thought that, if rack were an alt, that it wouldn't be as bad. rack's a hydra, apparently, but the same thought process applies, giving me some doubt about my scumread on them.

And now for the moment of truth...

(Note: Hez probably should be moved to town. Also, I'm not sure who Psyche is on the playerlist, but whoever it is needs to be not above null, since I haven't really liked Psyche's posts. rack *might* be moving to my scumlist, but I need to confirm a few things first. I'm kinda guessing Praetyre as town, and at least one of [if not both] Macross and--in particular--Firestarter to be scum, but I haven't read anything since day 1 officially started and I've mostly been skimming since, oh, page six or so, meaning said reads are in need of updating.)

[mastin2]

PART FIVE: KHAN, SECTION ONE--

Scum

:

Kublai Khan Man

:

People might think that my random vote (which I haven't actually made yet, as I'm typing this up while we're still in confirmation; it's just that I planned out said random vote the moment I signed up for the game) was just RVS joking. In a way, they're right, in that I intended to make that vote regardless of the circumstances of the game.

...But one might note that I'm not unvoting right now. And anyone paying attention to the above sections can figure out why--I have a legitimate scumread on Khan, and am about 90% sure on him being scum.

Much of it amounts to the same thing I have against Nihilistic Ninja, in that Khan appears to be trying to contribute helpfully...while not actually doing anything helpful. He's playing subtlely, taking a passive stance in this game, pushing things indirectly. Exactly as I would expect from him if he were scum.

He's being slightly withdrawn, and overall, his post structure is highly...well, structured. It's careful wording, an artificial construction meant to get people thinking he's town. And the sad thing is, it's worked perfectly, as the only person other than myself to have picked up on it was LLD, noting herself that something in his words seemed off, though she couldn't pin what it was, observing that by the words alone, he would look town.

But one of the things I instantly took from my research that I had begun to forget is that the ONE thing which has ALWAYS given me the edge over Khan is that I have an ability which I like to think of being unique, in that I DON'T look at just the literal wording, and I look beneath the surface.

(I'll try my hardest not to rely on it, though, since it's difficult for me to explain.) By pure logic, Khan is probably one of the strongest players on the site, in that he can carefully tailor his words to suit his needs--what he says appeals to people's senses, making them think that what he says, well, makes sense.

However, another piece of advice to take into mind is to look at the motive behind the words. Most players won't do this without flips (LLD seems to think it's a scumtell, even), but it's part of my signature style to observe interactions before flips.

In this case, with looking at Khan's posts--are his posts consistently pushing for a scum agenda, or for a town agenda? To me, he is distinctly the former.

But I can't rely on that alone to get others to lynch him, now, can I?

Was Jesus Jewish?

This is the first instance of Khan being cryptic. Instead of being blunt and to the point, Khan takes a roundabout way of answering things.

I'm starting to wonder if there's a point to having an open thread confirmation stage. We have our role PMs, either dam the river or open the floodgates.

And this is an example of Khan saying something which is made to make himself look more town, by saying something which on the surface sounds kinda town...but when you think about it, is nothing more than fluff, which had no actual town motive to say. It furthers his scum agenda, of trying to make himself look town, because it looks like a legitimate question, but when you look at it again...is it? No, it's little more than fluff.

mastin2 could be town. Time will tell. I'm in no rush to lynch him. He'll slip up later if he's scum.

This quote is wrong in more ways than one, too. Khan's only once seen me as scum. When he himself was also scum. It's the infamous Emerald City game, which got him the title he now so proudly wears, in that he claimed miller. I pushed him, hunted him, tried everything I could do to lynch him, because (just as now) I had him pegged as scum. People didn't buy my logic (nothing new there), and I was lynched for (essentially) being seen as irrational.

So he's never actually seen me "slip up" as scum. He's only seen my townplay. (As even in said scum game, I wasn't pushing a scum agenda in trying to get him lynched. Quite the opposite, I was trying to help the town out, as my faction was already at a disadvantage, so I wanted to send a "SCREW YOU" to them. It backfired, obviously, as the only reason the game wasn't a completely perfect Vermillion-scum win is because the Cerulean Scum nightkilled one of their members.)

But there's also the fact that he's taking the passive stance on me. I could be town, but he's not saying one way or another if he thinks I am or not. He's also leaving the door open to lynch me later-on, via the (wrong, as pointed out in great length above) statement about me slipping up later-on. It basically means Khan can try to lynch me at any point if my logic (which is already my weak point, mind you. >_M) begins to degrade, which he could then use as "proof" that I am "slipping", and am therefore scum.

(Then again, you can't really slip if you've already fallen off the slope... )

[mastin2]

PART SIX: KHAN, SECTION TWO--

Nero Cain, drmyshotgun, & Maxous are earlytown.

Note the later reversearound on Nero. But that aside, part of my suspicion on drmy comes from the fact that I'd expect Khan to put one of his buddies in the earlytown slot. It's not Nero, due to the way Khan had his reversal on him, leaving drmy and Maxous. Of which, Maxous is a weak townread due to his interactions. HezLucky is also on the list as well, technically, but is more likely town due to the "he's wrong, though" comment.

Speaking of which, that comment itself is further evidence of Khan saying something which sounds town, but really isn't--since Hez said he was going to tunnel on Nero, and Nero wanted Hez to tunnel on him, all things made abundantly clear early-on. Khan ignoring that and treating it as a legitimate early scumread (which people ignoring the context would see, thinking Khan was town for saying it) when anyone reading the context would understand that what Khan was saying wasn't town at all.

Candy Corn Vampire has some bad mojo going on. Not a fan of vijay2vasandani either.

Again, this is him not taking a strong stance (CCV), and him attacking an easy target (vijay). Vijay's play has honestly degraded, to the point where he used to be a strong player, but now is seen widely as a VI, on some players' blacklists due to his antics. Khan sensed weakness, and immediately jumped onto it. For CCV, it was similar--CCV had posts which were weak enough to get a start on, but which Khan could Edited 04-11-2012 02:47 PM
always back out of if necessary.


...And that's as far as I got. I didn't get to finish on Khan (but there's of course more), I didn't get to cover anything by Ninja, nor have I gotten around to drmy. (Those three are my strongest scumreads, in the order Khan-Ninja-drmy, obviously.) Of note, however, I predicted 5-6 scum, hence my suspicion on Firestarter, Macross, and rack.

I'll see if I can finish it later, but this'll do for now.

(*Insert obligatory accusation that "Mastin is tunneling hardcore on Khan!" here*. )

[Junpei]

God dammit Mastin, how many games are you in? This is a ton of reading... how about you just tell me what town tell you're talking about.

Mastin I can already tell that your massive walls could EASILY be trimmed down a ton. You are not following ANY of your advice you make threads on; it's great that you KNOW what to do, but you are completely failing to APPLY that knowledge. Are you scum intentionally swamping the game?

This game should never have started in confirmation phase, I am going to have trouble catching up...

[drmyshotgun]

VOTE: rack
He has no avatar.

[Nero Cain]

VOTE:SHOTGUN

[drmyshotgun]

Why?

[Nero Cain]

Why not?

[drmyshotgun]

I'm Town.

[Nero Cain]

Ok then. Mastin called you scum and I called you a vi. Instead of responding you instead join a bandwagon with a vote that attempts to look like an RVS. Why would you do this as town?

[drmyshotgun]

Mastin...called me a scum?

[Nero Cain]

avoidance. cool

[drmyshotgun]

Hmmm...does the vote which has big size count?