TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Regfan]

I don't really care if anything I do may or may not be perceived as a scumtell by some. I'm working in my own way and I'm fine with that. This game isn't a normal game and I'm not playing it like one. I'm using my QT and I may or may not share all information out of it as I see pertinent. I don't really care how that looks because - shocker - I'm not scum. I've done several things already that would be very questionable for scum to do, but I'm not going to bother pointing them out as I think they should speak for themselves.

Not caring if some of your actions can be perceived as a scum-tell is one thing but saying that you're more certain that your scum read on Captain is correct because of his push is another thing. It's very clear that his reasoning has a lot of ground, so why is him pushing on you for something that is genuinely scummy a scum-tell on his behalf? I really don't follow that line of logic at all and just reads as an attempt to justify maintaining your vote on him doing little else.

Also if there's some actions of yours that are 'very questionable for scum to do' I'd rather you point them out for me because I don't see them.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 1.17

Amrun (4) - Johhog, Captain Haddock, Regfan, Llamarble
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Captain Haddock (2) - Amrun, Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Benmage
Johhog (1) - SocioPath

Not Voting (2) - Thestatusquo, Matias

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Mod Notes

Bub Bidderskins is V/LA until May 14.

[Amrun]

I think Haddock's attack on me is certainly more valid than his attack on Matias; still, I don't find it especially good. They're semi-valid criticisms that apply much more strongly to about 5 other people in the game. What's the difference between me and them? They're not attacking Haddock. Haddock has had interactions with ONLY people criticising him, exclusively, and I find it quite scummy indeed. I acknowledge that he's the weakest link on the playerlist (and pointed it out myself), but I'm not going to ignore scummy behavior from him. Most interesting is his interactions with YOU, especually because as I've said, I have an iron solid town rea on you. You break down concisely why his argument against Matias is bullshit, but say you think he is town. He treats you VERY differently than he treats me and Bub, who basically said the same things with the twist that Haddock is scum. Haddock is super image conscious and that's scum mentality 101.

If asked for my biggest towntell this game, I'd point to my behavior around tsq (regardless of whatever alignment he actually ends up being). I brought a lot of attention on myself arguing against his wagon before he'd posted, especially the particular argument I employed. Then, when the pressure on him had mostly dissipated, I said I find him scummy but not auto-scum for ~mystery reasons~ which may or may not be the same as yours (our team doubts they're the same). There are about 20,000 easier roads for scum than that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(This is boring.)

Hmmm.
-MetaMafia seemed like it would require too much devotion. I'm already strapped...plus now I have to help my teammates .
-Scummies popularity contest.
I chose 1-3 as possible choices I'd wanna play in. Just got WF.

Benmage, if you were so ambivalent about which one you'd get, why did your team pick WF in the first round? My team is the only other one that picked WF in the first round and I sure as hell wasn't ambivalent.

[Captain Haddock]

I have lots of townreads, and several other reads that are leaning scummy in a more slight way,

but no one jumps out at me as much as Haddock. I have been observing Haddock and seen nothing to dissuade me

Well why have you let Bub push the lynch for you?

I don't really care if anything I do may or may not be perceived as a scumtell by some. I'm working in my own way and I'm fine with that.

This game isn't a normal game

and I'm not playing it like one.

So the town objective isn't to lynch the scum?

They're

semi-valid criticisms that apply much more strongly to about 5 other people in the game

. What's the difference between me and them? They're not attacking Haddock.

No they're not, no one has made as many posts as you and they have suspects even if they parked their vote. But try and back that up anyway.

If asked for my biggest towntell this game, I'd point to my behavior around tsq (regardless of whatever alignment he actually ends up being). I brought a lot of attention on myself arguing against his wagon before he'd posted, especially the particular argument I employed. Then,

when the pressure on him had mostly dissipated

, I said I find him scummy but not auto-scum for ~mystery reasons~ which may or may not be the same as yours (our team doubts they're the same). There are about 20,000 easier roads for scum than that

Actually, she said he was scummy when he had 4 votes on him.
375, 387

[Benmage]

(This is boring.)

Hmmm.
-MetaMafia seemed like it would require too much devotion. I'm already strapped...plus now I have to help my teammates .
-Scummies popularity contest.
I chose 1-3 as possible choices I'd wanna play in. Just got WF.

Benmage, if you were so ambivalent about which one you'd get, why did your team pick WF in the first round? My team is the only other one that picked WF in the first round and I sure as hell wasn't ambivalent.

I dont know how the round picking works... I thought you just picked the 4 you wanted.. Didn't know they were ranked.

Prolly WF was 1st, simply because it was #1 (no?)... And Both MoS and I said 1-3 for us.

[Equinox]

Thestatusquo has been prodded.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(This is boring.)

Hmmm.
-MetaMafia seemed like it would require too much devotion. I'm already strapped...plus now I have to help my teammates .
-Scummies popularity contest.
I chose 1-3 as possible choices I'd wanna play in. Just got WF.

Benmage, if you were so ambivalent about which one you'd get, why did your team pick WF in the first round? My team is the only other one that picked WF in the first round and I sure as hell wasn't ambivalent.

I dont know how the round picking works... I thought you just picked the 4 you wanted.. Didn't know they were ranked.

Prolly WF was 1st, simply because it was #1 (no?)... And Both MoS and I said 1-3 for us.

And that leads to a list of WF-Back Room-Scummies-Almost/Closed Normal how?

[Benmage]

(This is boring.)

Hmmm.
-MetaMafia seemed like it would require too much devotion. I'm already strapped...plus now I have to help my teammates .
-Scummies popularity contest.
I chose 1-3 as possible choices I'd wanna play in. Just got WF.

Benmage, if you were so ambivalent about which one you'd get, why did your team pick WF in the first round? My team is the only other one that picked WF in the first round and I sure as hell wasn't ambivalent.

I dont know how the round picking works... I thought you just picked the 4 you wanted.. Didn't know they were ranked.

Prolly WF was 1st, simply because it was #1 (no?)... And Both MoS and I said 1-3 for us.

And that leads to a list of WF-Back Room-Scummies-Almost/Closed Normal how?

I looked back at the QT, and after we got into TM... listed the games, we all said which we'd want. Than T-Bone said we got 1,2,4,5 so I imagine he selected... but there wasnt much conversation at the time... and it was never ranked like THIS THIS THIS!!! etc etc....

Whats the point of this question?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Whats the point of this question?

Are you really asking me why I'm quizzing about seemingly contradictory information? Especially when the original post wherein you explained why you picked White Flag was rambling and contradictory?

[Zachrulez]

Dodging the prod I'm probably going to receive tonight.

I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Bub Bidderskins]

MOD: I'm off V/LA now

Right now, I'm really not feeling the Amrun wagon. It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything. I'd much prefer a Haddock or Johhog lynch.

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

My current distribution is something like 0.8 scum in {Johhog, Matias, Regfan, singersigner, SocioPath, Zachrulez}, 0.8 scum in {Captain Haddock, Bud Bibberskins, Amrun}, 1.4 scum in {Thestatusquo, benmage, Llamarble}. 46.67% is pretty decent odds.

That's not the chance of him being scum. You also need to factor in the very real chance that your whole distribution is complete bollocks.

Nah. I spent some time calibrating that and I'm pretty sure it's an accurate representation of my beliefs.

It is also possible that your beliefs are complete bollocks.

[Regfan]

Right now, I'm really not feeling the Amrun wagon. It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything. I'd much prefer a Haddock or Johhog lynch.

I don't even know where you're getting that it's from 'an off-hand comment', it has nothing to do with any specific comment but rather a lack of stated scum reads given the amount of posts she has. Also meta-states that Johhog wouldn't take a scum role and I still think you're wrong about Haddock.

[singersigner]

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

Are you saying you're expecting scum to be among the most active players? If so, why is that?

No, I'm saying there are scum among the players that are actually posting, so its stupid to attack people who won't respond to you when there are scummier people who will.

I might have something to say about 354 once a certain ongoing game ends.

I meant that DGB and I were the only ones (to my recollection) that still thought he was scum AFTER the tracker thing. But it's not important. I don't remember all the details.

Well, you obviously didn't get the implication I was going for. And I do believe consistency is normally a scum tell, yes. So what do you conclude from that?

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: Amrun

So, sad news: I can't share why I now suspect TSQ. I don't know if I'm willing to stake his whole alignment on what I wanted to share but cannot, but it does make me lean scum on him.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

I think what he means is that at this point, most onlookers to the Me vs. Haddock feud would narrow it down to town vs. scum. He just believes that Haddock is the town one. I think that's based on the fact that I told Haddock to search my replies to his case, because I'm not writing them down again.

Reg: I think Benmage was 100% meta on that flip. I was scum with him during a game before, and he knows I take the convoluted route as town (I have a crazy thought process and will throw myself into blah blah blah blah, you know this, as town. However, I'm more reserved and calculated as scum)

He just recognized this meta with DemonHybrid, not Matias.

Llarmanle, Amrun isn't making up that thing about TSQ. I noticed something the same thing she did too.

I can't work out your Johhog-thing but I did go and do a meta-check through all a bunch of his games. Didn't read them in detail and only came across one scum game of his but his play here and the 'changing votes without explanation' is something he seems to tend to do as town which is mostly what I wanted to look to see if it was the case or not. I did come across this and this post of his here he states he much strongly prefers town roles, though he was scum in that game. Looked a little further and found him saying essentially the same thing in this game so I'm nowhere near as comfortable lynching him anymore.

Amrun, why have you barely talked about me since your 19th post out of 63? And why haven't you called anyone scum since then? VOTE: Amrun

This was something I noticed and have been waiting for a response from my team-mates for a while but they all seem to have gone AWOL.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

I asked them about TSQ but didn't get an answer quite yet. I have no clue what to make of his obvlurking. I don't even know if it's even inherently scummy.

My reads are a jumble after Haddock's last post

[singersigner]

I've caught up, I just don't really have the energy to say the things I want to say re: these posts so I'm posting them as a bookmark to actually comment. Sorry I'm a useless git right now.

Still like my vote on Shea thus far, but seeing the Johhog love. Not seeing Amrun, though I understand points brought against her.

Etc, etc.

/tired

[Equinox]

Johhog has been prodded.

[Zachrulez]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

How is that a valid point? How do you see what he said as being accurate?

Fanning suspicion without it being noticed actually has some scum motivation. It's weighed against the probability that Matias' attempt to analyze me was genuine. (For this specific instance I find the latter the more likely possibility.)

[Johhog]

Sorry for not posting earlier, weekend and all. I'll read up.

[Zachrulez]

Last two pages... urgh.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

[Johhog]

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

This IS a good point.

Also if you want a comment on something else I have a town read on Haddock and feel similarly about the idea of his lynch as you apparently do for a lynch of TSQ.

You're contradicting yourself here. Bub is saying that a TSQ-lynch essentially would be a random lynch but you say that you have a townread on Haddock. Can you please clarify this?

Grey thinks Amrun's TSQ scumtell she can't talk about is BS for reasons I can't talk about.
I'm open to the possibility we just missed something though. It seems an odd thing to fake.

I guess she could've gotten the idea from my Johhogtell though.
And I know she can fake odd things.

Can we just seriously stop this out-of-game related chat before someone gets hurt?

^Town unless Johhog's scum.
Scum don't randomly spike plausible mislynches often, and especially don't put in a bunch of meta effort to do so.

Pretty much this.

It's like they ignore context all by themselves.

Oh yeah? Please point out the context for me.

I dont know how the round picking works... I thought you just picked the 4 you wanted.. Didn't know they were ranked.

Prolly WF was 1st, simply because it was #1 (no?)... And Both MoS and I said 1-3 for us.

I don't buy this. The chance is extremely small that your whole team would misinterpret the rules. That brings up the question of why you would lie. A guess might be that one of your team mates wanted the game but when he got a scum PM/town PM (probs scum PM) he didn't want it and you got it instead.

Thestatusquo has been prodded.

Again? It's really time for TSQ to contribute now.

It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything.

How did you get to that conclusion? I see a lot of points brought up against Amrun.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

It's alarming for the sake of the game but please explain; how does that make him scum? I know from experience (for example this game) that posting little does not equal scum, I've not had that urge to post myself which makes it easy to see him thinking the same way.

And fuck, this game sure died by the looks of it. Hopefully it'll be resurrected soon.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

This IS a good point.

No. It's a sucky point even if the basic notion (that we have no info on TSQ) were true.

[Johhog]

Why do you think that TSQ is scum?

[Zachrulez]

So what, you think my argument against a Haddock lynch consists of it being no better than random? I'm pretty sure I didn't make that argument.

Pretty sure I said I feel similarly about a Haddock lynch. (Which means similarly about the dislike for a lynch, NOT the reasons for the feeling.)

[Johhog]

Well, I interpreted that the wrong way then. Sorry, English isn't my first language.

[Zachrulez]

Well, I interpreted that the wrong way then. Sorry, English isn't my first language.

I think I can see how you got that interpretation.

I feel pretty strongly about wanting TSQ/Benmage back to back actually. I think that slate has a good chance of ending the game outright.