TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[BBmolla]

Hey BBmolla, what are your thoughts on this scumteam: Ajax, Gaoth, KK. In that order because my Gaoth scum read is based on him being Ajax's scumbuddy specifically.

^This is what I'm feeling at the moment.

But I expect to be wrong about one of them.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 2, Votecount 3

Magua (1) - DeasVail

Not voting

(10): xRECKONERx, MagnaofIllusion, BBmolla, Kublai Khan, Magua, Quilford, T-Bone, theamatuer, hitogoroshi, Zar

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline:

June 3rd at 4:01pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-06-03 16:01:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: (expired on 2012-05-24 16:01:00)

[Zar]

Zar, why do you post Reckoner and theamatuer reads but no Kublai Khan reads?

still re-reading them too. Also, re-reading Ajax for interactions.

[DeasVail]

I feel like there is something wrong with the assumptions that the theamatuer wagon was scum driven and therefore on town. I feel that this is made more likely if KK is scum, but I actually doubt that.

Obviously we know The Fonz was town and I think KK is as well. It was hardly a proper counterwagon and it seemed very likely that Ajax would be lynched anyway. Captain Ajax tried to build wagons on others before that, and it would have seemed obvious to him that a Gaoth wagon wasn't going to save him (and I think Gaoth is scum anyway), so I could easily see him voting theam in an effort to distance. Another thing that supports this is that you could hardly say Ajax was trying to convince people of theam-scum. And then, the 4th vote on the wagon from Magua is him choosing between theametuer and Ajax. If he's scum, he didn't really have much choice but to to do that.

I find it hard to tell if theametuer is actually scummy or not, but I believe that Ajax-scum does not clear theam at all. If anything, theam is incriminated by the Ajax flip, because scum often make weak attacks on other scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay.

I re-read the whole game witha dedicated mindset.

Pseudo-vote is on Magua.

He's scum for sure. Goath's only post had a "ha-ha, let's not be to hasty in reading Captain Ajax as scum" defense. Magua then defended against the Captain Ajax wagon strongly with a strong amount of bullshit. So much so that he almost seemed to be going for the "big lie" before Captain Ajax' shitty claim. Plus there's Captain Ajax arguing against a Goath-lurker wagon.. Evidence is just too strong overall.

Quilford is super-town. His case on Captain Ajax speaks for itself. No way would scum ever bus that hard.

DeasVail is town because he picked up on a major town-tell I committed and has defended me when he would have no reason to as scum. I'm going to hold back on what it was for now (and I ask that he do as well), because I want BBmolla to ISO me and read the Scummies 1C QT and figure it out.

Speaking of BBmolla, I feel he's town (along with hitogoroshi) mostly for 103. Captain Ajax wouldn't have had a problem with Quilford's early reads if Quilford mentioned a scum-partner as town.

T-Bone reads as town. His biggest post in the whole game was his reasoning for switching to the Captain Ajax wagon and then spent his time questioning Magua's strange vote when Captain Ajax was at L-1.

Zar is a weak scum read. Barely comments on the Captain Ajax wagon, instead trying to generate interest in a BBmolla-wagon later on.

MagnaofIllusion isn't scum. Probably. I mean, I'm pretty sure. There's the fact that he pushed a Captain Ajax wagon hard and the likelyness that he wouldn't NK The Fonz unless something went awry with the scum NK. There's just some nagging doubt in the back of my mind. He mentioned that in this specific setup that scum have an entrenched interest not to bus, which is something I hadn't considered at all which maybe betrays where his thinking is at. But it's a minor thing and it's WIFOM. So, he's very probably town.

hitogoroshi I mentioned earlier. Plus overall he's got a very town-y mindset. He's looking for ways to take advantage of the setup without giving away any ground.

theamatuer is a wildcard. He's been absolutely useless. I mean, I know he's a VI, but 219 is ridiculously bad. Plus he's the only one that asked for a claim, then seems to honestly consider it to be valid (310). So it's the age-old question of "dumb or scum?"

xRECKONERx is another tough read because he had so much going on during day 1. I didn't like his 65 because he acknowledge's Goath's post as bad but starts a random other wagon, which is exactly when scum-xRECKONERx would do to subtly bus a buddy (of course this depends on Magua flipping scum, so I'm heavily in hypothetical land). The "scum-slip" that I was aluding to ealier from 96 was that I thought he was saying that he knew everyone was in a scummie-judging group, which is something only scum would know. But I completely mis-read it, so.. yeah. Egg on the face and all that.

In general, it feels like town-xRECKONERx would give more of a shit. I mean, he didn't even read the end of Day 1? And instead just does some lazy wagon-analysis? "Durr, theamatuer is the second-biggest wagon, therefore scum" is just lazy-bad. I know, I know.. The North Carolina thing and I'm a hypocrite when talking about laziness.

Still, the SDC should be picking up the slack. He's a null-read which will decend to a scum-read unless he picks up his game.

--
Also, I guess I'll be spokesman for group 2C (a 3-person group) and confirm that we did have 3 awards to choose from yesterday.

[DeasVail]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the towntell.

KK is more town than I thought.

[theamatuer]

@KK. Actually, I was trying to tell if scum's had daytalk or not. The claim is stupid and fake as shit, but I wanted to push at it to see if his response would slip something. Scum not having daytalk would make it far easier to read scums for relationships as they had less planning.

Also I'll be representative of 2B

[Quilford]

Exams finish in two days. Expect stuff then.

[Zar]

working in the elections today. Should be back with stuff tomorrow.

[hitogoroshi]

Still, the SDC should be picking up the slack. He's a null-read which will decend to a scum-read unless he picks up his game.

This is a pretty bad sentiment.

Make sure to keep tight lips today regarding scummies because scums are 100% guaranteed not to be in every group.

(As evidenced, I'm back and happy, not voting Magua until scummies nonsense is done, etc.)

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to split my discussion today into smaller posts because I’m fucking tired and that’s the easiest way to do it right now. More lengthy MoI-style posts to be expected tomorrow.

First topic

– Fonz’s death and the Best Newbie Kerfuffle.

With the votes that have been reported in thread (or lack there-of, I’m looking at you T-Bone) there is no easy way to get a handle on how the scum manipulation might work. If we knew if there was Daytalk it would go a long way to clarifying thoughts I have on the issue.

I will say that if there exists a possibility for scum to direct a Scummy to a Town player and then actively Nightkill them I will be very disappointed with the Mods as that is a TERRIBLE possibility in a game like this.

Suffice it to say each QT should ACTIVELY chose the recipient of each Scummie that everyone should be 100% required to vote on pain of death before the Scummie choice is hammered.

And Fonz was clearly chosen for a reason. I will re-read his ISO and mull that over later.

--

Second topic

– I think it impossible for scum to be ‘randomly’ distributed to a majority in any judging group. That would also be terrible Modding given the set-up and I refuse to believe that our glorious Mods would do that to us.

Thus for the moment I am making the following PoE statements for later in the game –

The following group has only 1 scum maximum – Reck, Quilford, T-Bone, MoI
The following group has only 2 scum maximum (yes, that’s redundant I know) – hito, Magua, Zar, TheAm
The following group has only 1 scum maximum – KK, BB, Deas

[MagnaofIllusion]

Next some questions before I really dig into ISOs –

Magua

–

For someone so terribly wrong yesterday your “Look at me be casually active” sthick makes me want you dead even if you are Town.

Let’s do this again – give my your Top 3 candidates for the last two Mafia today and at least a smidgen of why with each.

--

Zar

Yesterday you really avoided commenting in any way other than very weak “I don’t like his posts" statement. Please explain why you, as hypo-Town, avoided commenting on anything of Ajax’s play until he had already nailed down himself as scum with his terrible fake-claim.

Also please explain why Post 416 isn’t something that warrants to rope today. Because that is exactly the kind of post I expect to see from scum … a PBP ISO review that looks at each post for ways to consider it scummy and comes to a conclusion completely divorced from the actual realities of how the Day played out. Your unvote approximately 11 hours later to me is a big red-flag, especially if scum do have Daytalk.

--

KK

So you spent yesterday flailing around calling me out for suspecting you. You avoided actually doing anything in regards to Ajax other than saying “he wasn’t setting off alarm bells for you”. Your scum reads were TheAm, BBMolla (Town in my eyes even pre-flip), Quilford (obv-Town yesterday), T-Bone (weak play but not very scummy) and Reck (for the mythical scum-slip). Why shouldn’t reads that bad combined with pushing (and I’m using the term loosely given your general lack of content) the counter-wagon to Ajax result in your lynch today?

Second why shouldn’t I see your Town read on my while I was calling you scum that today morphed into a Oh, he’s probably Town but I just want to leave some nuggets I can claim are troubling me here to reverse the read a sign that yesterday’s read was appeasement given that I was one of the two biggest proponents of an Ajax lynch (with Quilford).

Lastly – you actually attacked people yesterday for pushing on Gaoth (you called Zar’s vote opportunistic which isn’t a Town attribute) yet today Magua becomes your top suspect. Should I not think you are Mafia trying to stoke those fires simply off the strength of hito / my end of Day statements about him being a dead man?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hito

–

Dear Brofist Buddy …

Please re-read KK and Zar for me today. I know we both thirsted for Magua’s blood yesterday but I’ll like some serious due diligence done on those two as I think they very much could be scum also.

Thanks so kindly,

MoI

--

What makes you think I have no reasoning?

Well firstly the complete lack of any given with your vote. You are not a special snowflake and are not going to be ‘catching’ scum if you are Town by derping around and waiting for scum to attack you on bad points. This game is at a level you are apparently unused to. That sort of play isn’t going to work as evidenced by your “Fonz is scum attacking me” statement. Either adapt or just stay out of the way if you are Town. If you are not I'm pretty sure we will work it out sooner or later.

Not to mention that even voting at this stage is monumentally stupid given that we want to have EVERY LITTLE DETAIL of things ironed out in all Scummie QTs today. Which is why you should FOS instead. You should have been able to reason this out on your own.

What do people think of theam pretty much ignoring Ajax and the wagon on him?

I think that your reasoning on why he is scummy is pretty terrible and he should not be lynched before LYLO given how the wagons of the day worked.

Furthermore your complete avoidance of other players like KK and Zar who also pretty much ignored Ajax doesn’t inspire me with confidence.

--

I'm up for lynching Zar or Magua.

Actually at this stage I’m thinking I’d put Magua third on my depth chart behind KK and Zar. Yes heresay I know. But both the others are hitting my gut pretty damn hard. Especially KK given his overall-site activity versus his activity here yesterday.

Please re-read KK for me Quil. I’m not seeing anything remotely Town. And the fact that he has COMPLETELY avoided actually talking about his “slip” that he witnessed from Reck is making my desire to hang him grow and grow.

--

Everyone else falls into some shade of "null" and I'm willing to back off of MoI for awhile because everyone thinks I'm fucking insane and Fate has threatened to drive to my house and torch it if I don't stop letting the hate blinders take over (pretty much direct quote) and he's insane enough to fucking do it

If you still harbor some illusions that I could possibly be scum after yesterday where I ground Ajax into the ground you need to dispense with them immediately. I ignored your little “MoI is scum for thinking I’m Town” posts yesterday because responding would serve no Pro-Town purpose.

If you can’t work past your pre-conceived notions about me please don’t complain to me in any way post-game about that. That is 100% on you. I’ve done nothing this game but make sure that old wounds were not opened for scum to exploit after getting a solid Town read on you.

[T-Bone]

I'm back but I'm exhausted.

[Magua]

Next some questions before I really dig into ISOs –

Magua –

For someone so terribly wrong yesterday your “Look at me be casually active” sthick makes me want you dead even if you are Town.

What does "casually active" mean? I could be voting someone now, but there's no point until after the scummies are done.

Also, you shouldn't want me dead if I'm town. Less chance of winning + less points even if we do win. =P

Let’s do this again – give my your Top 3 candidates for the last two Mafia today and at least a smidgen of why with each.

Discussed this with Regfan a bit in the QT.

We think that there was one busser on Ajax's wagon, which was probably BBmolla, and one scum off of the wagon, which is probably theamatuer or Kublai Khan.

As is my wont, I'm operating under PoE, so this isn't really a case *for* either BBmolla/Kublai Khan/Zar/theamatuer so much as a case against other people:

On Ajax's wagon:
Captain Ajax (7) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla, T-Bone, MagnaofIllusion, Magua

I think you're town. Regfan's not sold but I dun really care. Of the people on the wagon, you're the most likely to bus, as well, but I don't think you would bus D1 because you tend to bus later for more towncred, and I think you're in this to win this and don't want to take the hit tot he D1 tiebreaker score. So.

Quilford, DeasVail both Regfan and I read as town.

T-Bone Regfan reads as town for meta reasons. My read is meh, but I'm conceding to Reg's better meta knowledge in this area.

hitogoroshi was my D1 scumread, but strong positioning on the wagon against, again, my impression that scum are not going to bus D1 for the points, made me rethink this. This is reflected in my "Sorry for all the terrible things I said about you" comment at the end of D1.

So, when I replaced Gaoth, I threw a scumread of BBmolla into our team's QT, and Regfan told me that I was wrong, that that's just how BBmolla is (I've seen BBmolla as scum in Secret Society, and very, very, very, very briefly as town in Paranoia, never played with him). Regfan's come around to my view now.

--------------

Off the wagon:

theamatuer: The thing that gets me is that "See?" that theamatuer throws at the end of D1. Like, he really thinks that he did this great thing getting this cop claim, when it was obvious that the claim was going to die in flames. I'm just not seeing this, overly much -- that a scumbuddy would read that and not see what was going to happen and not just jump on because it was inevitably going to happen. There's weird interaction between him and Ajax D1, but I'm reading him as the counterwagon, whereas Regfan's reading him as scum.

Reckoner: The opposite of theamatuer. I think his "What did Ajax claim yesterday?" looks forced and planned; Regfan finds it to be a towntell. My reservation with a Reckoner scum-read is just that if Reckoner were actually scum, I would expect him to be *better* at it. This is the opposite approach of KK's Reckoner read.

Zar: I like his D1 play. D2 play so far is more meh, but I'm willing to overlook that until after the scummy judging is over

and people start voting me

. Reg repeats "look out he loves playing scum," but doesn't currently read him as scum.

Kublai Khan: Again, more PoE than anything else. I simply suspect everyone off of the wagon less than him. Also, OMGIS.

I actually suspect BBmolla more as being the bussing partner than I suspect anyone off of the wagon, but if I had to choose someone off of the wagon it'd be KK.

[Kublai Khan]

KK

So you spent yesterday flailing around calling me out for suspecting you. You avoided actually doing anything in regards to Ajax other than saying “he wasn’t setting off alarm bells for you”. Your scum reads were TheAm, BBMolla (Town in my eyes even pre-flip), Quilford (obv-Town yesterday), T-Bone (weak play but not very scummy) and Reck (for the mythical scum-slip). Why shouldn’t reads that bad combined with pushing (and I’m using the term loosely given your general lack of content) the counter-wagon to Ajax result in your lynch today?

It's a big ask of me, I know. I played like shit on Day 1. No analysis, just off-the-cuff skim-analysis as I was too busy to really commit to the game properly. I sat down and read the entire game with the flips in mind, making notes as I went before I made my post. I can't erase any previous bad play, so all I can do is mea culpa and play better.

Second why shouldn’t I see your Town read on my while I was calling you scum that today morphed into a Oh, he’s probably Town but I just want to leave some nuggets I can claim are troubling me here to reverse the read a sign that yesterday’s read was appeasement given that I was one of the two biggest proponents of an Ajax lynch (with Quilford).

Take it as a compliment. I wanted to despretely put you in the Town column, but you're a good enough player that I'll focus on any doubt I have as being something of significance.

Lastly – you actually attacked people yesterday for pushing on Gaoth (you called Zar’s vote opportunistic which isn’t a Town attribute) yet today Magua becomes your top suspect. Should I not think you are Mafia trying to stoke those fires simply off the strength of hito / my end of Day statements about him being a dead man?

Well, you shouldn't think that because it makes no sense on two levels.
1) If I'm scum trying to get Magua mislynched today, that means you're suggesting that I was buddying to

Goath

of all people on Day 1? Keep in mind that Goath is one of the few people in this game that I've never played with before and therefore would least know how to manipulate. Or you're suggesting that I was "defending" Goath from a mislynch for towncred. Which is hilarious because nobody ever gets towncred for trying to failing to prevent a mislynch.
2) My suspicion of Magua developed organically as I re-read the game with the scumflip in mind. I had him down as scum way before I got to the bromance posts between you and hitogoroshi.

[T-Bone]

I'm back but I'm exhausted.

And now I'm more exhausted thanks to another game which I can't talk about.

No one in my QT kept up with this game in my absence, so I'm flying blind. Here we go anyway.

The great thing about the Ajax lynch, is that it divides our playerlist. There were 7 players on his lynch, 6 players who were not (2 of which who are dead) leaving 4 players, at least one of which is scum. Maybe two because since this is team mafia, winning with a full scumteam earns you more points than not. We know that both Fonz and Magua were guys who defended the wagon. Fonz was town, though I type that and then realize Magua hammered so he isn't even in the group I'm talking about.

It's Thematuer, Zar, Reck, and KK. I want to call Thematuer town. I don't think Ajax was trying to counterwagon on another scumbuddy. As much as I thought Thematuer could be scum Day 1, I believe Ajax's flip makes him more likely to be town. Moving him out of the group.

Zar, Reck and KK. This is an interesting group to me. I did read Zar as town early on, I liked his Goeth vote and his reasoning looked pretty genuine to me. I even tried to give him our Group's power (albeit late). Reck, I've played one game with him and we were masons, so I've never had to read him before. Reck's rage style of posting throws me. Looking through his ISO, it's not apparent to me why he votes Quilford in one post, and then unvotes him calling him town the next. Makes no sense to me. KK, I thought he town slipped early on in his ISO. He made a statement about scum in the judging groups as if he thought there was only one judging group. A sentiment I also had when the game started. Surely scum would know that there was multiple scum groups because they have to be in more than one right? Unless scum don't have daytalk in which case this could mean nothing.

I've convinced myself of nothing by the way. Anyone have any thoughts to build upon these?

[DeasVail]

MoI

So you thought I just voted Magua because his name sounded cool? How low is your opinion of me as a player exactly? I don't think it's quite as low as you make it out to be, but I suppose it could be.

I really wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something, but I don't see what's wrong with voting...

I don't think I've said anywhere that theam is scummy.

Yes, I have ignored Zar, but I haven't ignored Kublai at all. I actually plan to defend him if his lynch looks likely. Even if he's scum, I won't feel that bad because obviously I'm not going to influence anyone.

Everyone

I am really irritated by people calling theametuer town for being a "counterwagon". Captain Ajax did not make any attempt to get people to vote him and when he did vote theam, what were his options if theam was his buddy? There was NO ONE he would have been able to lynch, so the best move would obviously be to vote theam, who from Ajax-scum-with-theam's opinion, would need all the help he could get.

Additionally, Magua voting theam is completely irrelevant considering it was a choice between theam and Ajax.

I'm not saying theam can't be town. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was, but the silly counterwagon thing is, in my opinion, a terrible reason to consider theam town and I think it needs to stop, unless someone can give me a good reason why I'm wrong.

Regarding Reck: I think he could be town if Magua is town because of his vote on Gaoth, which brings it to equal Ajax's sizeable wagon at the time. Wagoning someone who's posted once to compete with a wagon on a known scumbuddy? Is it just me, or does that seem incredibly uncomfortable?

I need to look more closely at Zar, and reconsider KK too, but I'm pretty sure I'll have a townread on the latter.

[hitogoroshi]

Second topic

– I think it impossible for scum to be ‘randomly’ distributed to a majority in any judging group. That would also be terrible Modding given the set-up and I refuse to believe that our glorious Mods would do that to us.

No, there's no reason for the mods to put hard re-random conditions in place like that. If the scum manage to get, say, 2 scum mates in the 3 person group, there's a group they're completely blind about, and anyway we can still ask them to say where it went and etc. I imagine it's just normally random.

Now, those assumptions aren't necessarily WRONG, but no, I wouldn't say it'd be terrible modding to have the allocation be totally random. That's the assumption I'm flying under anyway.

@Hito

–

Dear Brofist Buddy …

Please re-read KK and Zar for me today. I know we both thirsted for Magua’s blood yesterday but I’ll like some serious due diligence done on those two as I think they very much could be scum also.

Thanks so kindly,

MoI

I'll do this - maybe not in the next day or two, though, because I have a final Wednesday. For the record, given the sum total of what I have on Magua, I'd have to seriously disagree about your valuation of him as third most likely scum. But hey, due diligence is due diligence, and if I'm right on Magua (and from the start Ajax being scum was always less sure in my mind than Magua being scum IF Ajax is scum), then it'll be a useful thing to have around D3.

[BBmolla]

So, when I replaced Gaoth, I threw a scumread of BBmolla into our team's QT, and Regfan told me that I was wrong, that that's just how BBmolla is (I've seen BBmolla as scum in Secret Society, and very, very, very, very briefly as town in Paranoia, never played with him). Regfan's come around to my view now.

What gave him the initial townread, and what changed his mind?

I was going to say that this sounded very genuine until the last sentence, which confuses me. IIRC, Regfan has read me correctly for the most part in games I've played with him, and for him to randomly decide I'm scum out of nowhere doesn't make any sense.

Walk me through it if you will.

[BBmolla]

Oh yeah and your scumread should be explained to. I look forward to you somehow comparing my play here to SS Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What does "casually active" mean? I could be voting someone now, but there's no point until after the scummies are done.

Also, you shouldn't want me dead if I'm town. Less chance of winning + less points even if we do win. =P

Casually active means you’ve popped up to look like you are engaged (asking Deas questions) but are doing it in a way that isn’t related at all to finding scum IMO. And that you are playing it ‘cool’ given that you should have expected to be hit with a barrage of fire and brimstone today.

Town Magua should really have been more proactive trying to actually find scum IMO. You may disagree but it doesn’t serve Town’s long term interest for you to just not make your thoughts and feelings known even if you are eating rope today.

The last sentence's truth hinges on you being Town and quite frankly I have not a lot of faith in that right now.

We think that there was one busser on Ajax's wagon, which was probably BBmolla, and one scum off of the wagon, which is probably theamatuer or Kublai Khan.

I think if there is a busser on Ajax it’s you (and that’s really not bussing). The fact that you understand the ramificiations of bussing = less points for your Mafia team given the first quote makes this statement not very credible in my eyes. I'd like you to explain how BB's vote looks like bussing at all given the timing of it and the flow of the votes at that stage of the game.

I think you're town. Regfan's not sold but I dun really care. Of the people on the wagon, you're the most likely to bus, as well, but I don't think you would bus D1 because you tend to bus later for more towncred, and I think you're in this to win this and don't want to take the hit tot he D1 tiebreaker score. So.

Given that Regfan has never played with Scum MoI that I can remember this statement makes me want to change my opinion on you being the third most likely scum. I honestly can’t see a Town Regfan (aka Magua Town) as thinking this way at all given how yesterday developed.

So, when I replaced Gaoth, I threw a scumread of BBmolla into our team's QT, and Regfan told me that I was wrong, that that's just how BBmolla is (I've seen BBmolla as scum in Secret Society, and very, very, very, very briefly as town in Paranoia, never played with him). Regfan's come around to my view now.

You’ll need to explain what turned Regfan around on this because frankly I can’t see BBMolla as scum at this juncture.

Zar: I like his D1 play. D2 play so far is more meh, but I'm willing to overlook that until after the scummy judging is over and people start voting me. Reg repeats "look out he loves playing scum," but doesn't currently read him as scum.

What exactly do you like about his Day 1 play? Be specific because I don’t see much at all redeeming in it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

KK, I thought he town slipped early on in his ISO. He made a statement about scum in the judging groups as if he thought there was only one judging group. A sentiment I also had when the game started. Surely scum would know that there was multiple scum groups because they have to be in more than one right? Unless scum don't have daytalk in which case this could mean nothing.

I have my doubts about the viability of this ‘Town Tell’. First I really don’t put much stock in Town tells to begin with (call me the anti-Magua). Second KK is experienced enough and quite skilled enough (see his Best Serial Killer Scummie) that faking such a Town-tell is well within his wheel-house.

--

So you thought I just voted Magua because his name sounded cool? How low is your opinion of me as a player exactly? I don't think it's quite as low as you make it out to be, but I suppose it could be.

I really wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something, but I don't see what's wrong with voting...

Did you read the post you are responding to? I ask because this portion of your post indicates you didn’t.

You gave no opinions with your vote. I don’t really care what your reasoning is … be it lazyiness, ineptitude or your own personal form of scum-hunting (which is what I credited you with in my first post BTW if you had bothered to read). I want reasoning with all votes and tend to treat players (even very skilled players like Faraday) who don’t give it with varying levels of disgust.

It probably should be clear since no-one else is voting … there is no need to rush down a vote until after all the Scummies sub-groups have done their thing. We are ahead of EVERY other game and given the fact Magua is very likely the lynch today there is rush to vote so early. Today is a great day to take our time and make sure everything gets properly hashed out and all opinions and options discussed. Town is in a great position.

I don't think I've said anywhere that theam is scummy.

Frankly this post where you say “If anything, theam is incriminated by the Ajax flip, because scum often make weak attacks on other scum.” seeks to disagree with this statement. You’ve registered your dislike of TheAm getting PoE Town treatment solely based on the wagon on him. It’s noted.

Personally said “Why is TheAm cleared” thinking reads to me as scummy. Scum absolutely hate PoE working in favor of weak players and giving them protection. At this point you are really outside my pool of lynches but your play isn’t striking me as very Town oriented.

Regarding Reck: I think he could be town if Magua is town because of his vote on Gaoth, which brings it to equal Ajax's sizeable wagon at the time. Wagoning someone who's posted once to compete with a wagon on a known scumbuddy? Is it just me, or does that seem incredibly uncomfortable?

So let me get this straight … you are unwilling to say that TheAm’s wagon (which frankly had only 1 player on it with even the slightest bit of effort in pushing it and that was Fonz) doesn’t make sense in clearing him but this is the reasoning you give for clearing Reck (who should be clear for many other reasons and yesterday you were very vocal about not liking the many Town reads on him)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@KK

– I’m going to ask you directly since you’ve avoided actually stating it despite being asked to numerous times.

What was the scum-slip you claimed you saw from Reck? You need to specifically point out what it was and why you thought it was indicative of a scum-slip. Failure to do so in your next post will be considered a scum-claim.

It's a big ask of me, I know. I played like shit on Day 1. No analysis, just off-the-cuff skim-analysis as I was too busy to really commit to the game properly. I sat down and read the entire game with the flips in mind, making notes as I went before I made my post. I can't erase any previous bad play, so all I can do is mea culpa and play better.

Um, what? Yesterday you were REAJHSHH, KK SMASH when I pointed out you were not scum-hunting. In fact you dropping this –

Ah, so you disagree with me and therefore I'm scum. Ok.

little bit when I called you out on suspecting both Quil and TheAm. So at that stage you were presenting your scum-hunting as a solid effort. You also commented that your efforts at uncovering "Scum-Quilford and Scum-TheAm were unappreciated". Now we get this response? Um, no.

Take it as a compliment. I wanted to despretely put you in the Town column, but you're a good enough player that I'll focus on any doubt I have as being something of significance.

Nope I don’t take it as anything other than suspect play. As I mentioned before in my Deas response scum don’t like PoE at all. So you distancing yourself from your previously stated Town read on me due to a scum flip that I was half the driving force on makes my gut tingle. And not in the same way as when I visit an "All You Can Eat" mexican buffet and go hog wild on spicy food.

1) If I'm scum trying to get Magua mislynched today, that means you're suggesting that I was buddying to Goathof all people on Day 1? Keep in mind that Goath is one of the few people in this game that I've never played with before and therefore would least know how to manipulate. Or you're suggesting that I was "defending" Goath from a mislynch for towncred. Which is hilarious because nobody ever gets towncred for trying to failing to prevent a mislynch.

This is a terrible false dichotomoy you have set up. My thinking you are scum looking to hop on the popular scum-read from Day 1 isn’t at all a case of either “buddying or defending”. It’s pretty ludicrous to suggest those are the only options.

Here is what you said re Gaoth / Magua Day 1 –

Gaoth - One post and there's a wagon? Feels opportunistic as fuck. Null read, for what it's worth.

Yup … that’s it. That is the extent of your posting regarding the slot Day 1 as it pertains to his alignment. You basically fence-sit on him here in saying he’s a Null read. You do, however, find those people on his wagon to be scummy for it as shown in these quotes –

Zar - The Goath-vote and explanation feels opportunistic as hell.

I never said "leave Gaoth be". I just thought it was scummy that despite everything that was going on, you're hyper-tunneling on a guy who has one post and is being prodded. It's an easy way not to stick your neck out.

So yesterday you were more than willing to throw stones at those who wagonned Gaoth / Magua. In fact your Zar suspicion looks very much like distancing … attacking him very weakly making sure that your “suspicions” are on record but doing nothing to actually drive attention his way.

Magua’s flip as Town or Scum really don’t look good for you either way to be honest. I may have some confirmation bias going on here since you are scummy as fuck IMO but him flipping Town really strengthens my “KK was playing to set up attacks based on his inside knowledge that non-performer Gaoth was an ‘easy’ Town target” feelings. Meanwhile a scum flip from Magua means your “epiphany” overnight is just scrambling to distance yourself from your second teammate going down and that your more or less refusal to call either one anything (either Town or Scum) in Post 153 is another nail in the coffin.

You need dead and how well before endgame. That’s how I see it right now.

2) My suspicion of Magua developed organically as I re-read the game with the scumflip in mind. I had him down as scum way before I got to the bromance posts between you and hitogoroshi.

See this … this makes me chuckle. You are basically stating that “Well it developed honestly and naturally as I read overnight. Yeah, there is no evidence that it happened that way you will just have to trust me”. No, I don’t have to trust you at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, there's no reason for the mods to put hard re-random conditions in place like that. If the scum manage to get, say, 2 scum mates in the 3 person group, there's a group they're completely blind about, and anyway we can still ask them to say where it went and etc. I imagine it's just normally random.

Well we are approaching MD territory here but I disagree. Scum clearly have some ability to monkey with distribution of Scummies (unless you think one of myself / Reck / Quil / T-Bone is scum with Ajax and lied about our vote). Being able to get enough scum into a judging group to outright control it means that they would have multiple way to screw over Town’s distribution of PowerRoles.

We have no idea if Scum have any power-roles outside the Scummies. Even assuming they don’t giving them the ability to control distribution of possibly 2/3s of Scummies per Night (rendering them useless to Town via Nightkill or granting to themselves) renders this a pretty much Mountainous game IMO. And 9-3 Mountainous is in no way balanced.

If I’m wrong post-game I’m wrong and will own that wrongness. But I’m going to work from the assumption that scum cannot have gotten a majority in any Day 1 judging group. If we ever see the appearance of a Vig power that’s even more likely to be true for balance reasons.

But hey, due diligence is due diligence, and if I'm right on Magua (and from the start Ajax being scum was always less sure in my mind than Magua being scum IF Ajax is scum), then it'll be a useful thing to have around D3.

Agreed.