TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[Zar]

I think his posts demonstrate that he doesn't relate to me as town. I

think

it's normal as town to have conflicting thoughts and to be unsure of things and not being able to fully explain townreads. However, Zar is taking a very scummy (in my opinion) approach to my reads, as he obviously doesn't get that I'm likely to have those as my thoughts and express them in that way.

Stating vague, uncertain reads you don't show any intent in helping find scum. You state an opinion which you are immediately cancelling out.

I don't actually get where this is coming from either. Does he think I'm scum?

Yes.

The degree of his push for me to be more involved and clarify my reads suggests not.

The degree of my push is to assess your intent. You've been coasting. Dropping the casual vague remark.

Does he want to be able to better read me?

No. I want you to demonstrate town intent, if you are town.

Again, his questions/requests don't seem to be for that purpose. The way he's attacking my reads just seems so much like it is from scum's perspective.

Can you explain how does me asking you to elaborate on your reads make sense to you from "scum's perspective"?

1. No, it's not fencesitting. I'm explaining how I feel about Reckoner. I have decided on having him as a moderate townread.

This is your read in short: "a moderate town read based on X/Y/Z, but I'm not sure and I get a scummy vibe". Tell me, how does this not fit the definition of a fence-sit? If you have a moderate town read on Reck, why do you feel the need to establish having a "scummy vibe from him"? It just feels to me you are adding room to look consistent if you have to change your mind.

3. The question is, why do you want to know? My answer though is that I find it difficult to explain what I find townish about him, it's just a feeling from his posts that it's what town would say rather than scum. And I wasn't sure about Ajax, but he was my strongest scumread. My problem with Molla was what I perceived to be a lack of consideration for the possibility of Ajax-town.

Because you aren't giving a solid stance to base your opinion. You're just throwing out a vague "there are things he does" but aren't giving any sound examples to base your impressions. Reads of the sort do not foster debate and discussion.

4. I think that underlined sentence is pretty clearly in favour of KK-town. I think the Magua vote was explained already. I remember reading it as quite an eager vote (i.e. from someone who actually thinks Magua is scum) Scum are unlikely to be so eager because they'd know they're joining a mislynch (and although they'd feel happy about it, they wouldn't want to show it).

This is WIFOMish. You are saying that Scum KK would not want to look eager to hammer so as to not be suspected. From my experience, Scum fall at any level among a wagon (they can be starters, bussers, middlevotes, second-to-last, eager hammerers, hesitant hammerers, apathetic, what have you). Is this reasoning of yours based on KK meta?

5. If you want this because you'd like to be able to read T-Bone better, I'll try explaining to you. Otherwise, no. Another problem, Zar's comments on my reads rarely show any real thought as to what his own are.

No. I want it to understand your train of thought, and to try to discern your alignment from it. I also don't understand how my comments on your reads do not show what I thought about them. I thought I was quite clear.

6. Another recent post of mine has the main ones. Theam asking for an investigative role being the main one. He had a townread on Magua when everyone else had a scumread, and didn't explain it, as far as I'm aware.

Ok.

7. Yes, and it was because he was the most certain of the pairing and I was interested in what his reasoning was.

Why? Do you find hito's certainty of this pairing suspicious?

[DeasVail]

-638 was sarcasm by the way.

-The problem with your wishy-washy accusation is that the

but

s are not indicative of a lack of read on anyone, but are merely used as conjunctions(?). It's like this: I think you're town,

but

can you answer these questions so I can better read you. Nevertheless, I know I am often wishy-washy according to the definition, but why does it make me scum?

-How has your play been less safe than my own? (Note that I'm not saying it hasn't. I actually haven't been assessing how safe each of us have been, but I would like reasoning to support you statement.)

-I don't understand this.

-I didn't intend to cancel out any opinions, except perhaps with BBmolla. But the key issue here is, how is stating uncertain reads (along with reasoning for being uncertain) not helping town? I, unlike scum (perhaps including you), can not make myself certain of reads.

-So how does my explained suspicion of you (which, I might add, came before you started actually calling me scum) fit in with your idea of me being vague and unhelpful?

-I've been demonstrating town intent all game. It is up to you to recognise it. To specifically try to demonstrate town intent would be scummy.

-First, you did a lot of attacking of my reads before actually calling me scum, and I think you've fabricated the link between what I've done and you thinking I'm scum. Your attacking of my reads seems like scum trying to strongly attack someone, not town who is trying to better read me/convince others that I'm scum. And the basis of many of your points is actually quite weak. Most of it is just me saying I have a townread on someone without explaining it. I'll only answer it if you feel that you'll benefit from it.

-Well that is how I feel about Reck, but it seems like you would prefer I adjust my reads to be more town-looking. That's what scum do. My stance on Reck is a moderate townread, but I've expressed my doubts because I do have them.

-That;s because I don't have anything solidly town from BBmolla...

-What you're saying is that there's no reason to consider anyone likely town because scum could do it to look town.

-I meant what you thought of the players. Town are more likely to think about how their reads compare, scum are more likely to look at what they can attack.

-I didn't find Hito suspicious for that. (See point about questions not being just for scumreads)

Can we lynch Zar guys?

[xRECKONERx]

I'm actually more fine with zar than kk at this point given his behavior in the qt

[DeasVail]

I've decided that, unless already explained, I'll only be explaining townreads if someone is unsure of one of them and would like to discuss them, or if they are in danger of being lynched.

[hitogoroshi]

So Hito, when you say "scum in the group know Magua and you voted MoI" doesn't that mean by default BB or Theamatuer are scum from your perspective, assuming scum was in your group? We do know from Day 1 Ajax had to be able to do something from his group to mess with the voting. Perhaps scum could do it a second time. The question is, are they able to mess with the scummy process from the inside, or outside?

Yes, ASSUMING the group has at least one scum, it's BBMolla or theam; which pretty much reduces to theam (BBMolla ISO 7 would be pretty unlikely coming from Ajax's scumbuddy). I'm not ready to assume that though. It could have been a lucky 2:2 and coinflip, or scum interference ability could come from without.

By the way,

V/LA from June 1st - June 5th.

I'm going on a trip to the International Roguelike Development Conference in London. I'll have my laptop but probably won't be on much. I think today I'm going to leave aside the Quilford-IC question (not permanently, just for now) and try to figure out the best vote solely on dayplay, since this is my last full day of posting for almost a week.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 3, Votecount 3

theamatuer (2) - Kublai Khan, T-Bone

Kublai Khan (1) - MagnaofIllusion
Zar (1) - DeasVail

Not voting

(5): xRECKONERx, BBmolla, theamatuer, Zar, hitogoroshi

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline:

June 13th at 7:12 PM (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-06-13 19:12:13)

[MagnaofIllusion]

@BB

– who is scum? I want your top three suspects with reasons why (at least three sentances) in your next post.

Also I hate your ‘coinflip’ reasoning for who you have the Scumie to. Not getting a unifed front in QT Day 1 ended up allowing scum to manipulate to get Fonz the Scummie and kill him. Leaving that possibility open from your Day 2 group is horrible play.

@EVERYONE

– I want you to look at KK’s posting and tell me that comes from Town. He’s still posting on site while ignoring this game. And yes, posting in GD and other places takes less effort than games. That doesn’t mean it’s not indicative of scum who don’t feel like faking the effort of pretending to scum-hunt. He overall has fewer posts than Fonz (who died Night 1), Magua (who replaced late Day 1 and was lynched yesterday) and the Mod. He barely has more posts than scum lynched Day 1. I posted a case on his behavior that I think indicates scum intent. Please tell me what about my case isn’t compelling and convincing at this stage of the game. His response has been basically “MoI is a poopyhead for making a case on me”. Remember … KK has voted for two players this entire game. 1 of which has flipped Town.

@T-Bone

– do you think KK is scum? Please answer in your next post with reasoning.

--

Why was Quilford killed anyways? The only reason seems to be because of the PR.
Also this is a proddodge. Will have something interesting up soon that is not my long and important case but will help it.

Urge to lynch TheAm rising …

--

I still think that, of the players off the Ajax wagon, KK is most likely partnered to him.

Then why are you not voting for him?

--

I think his posts demonstrate that he doesn't relate to me as town.

So? Honestly your play hasn’t been spectacularly sparkling Town. Is this an extension of the “only scum would suspect me” stance you have floated in the past? Because clearly Fonz’s flip shows that to be a deeply flawed theory.

-I didn't intend to cancel out any opinions, except perhaps with BBmolla. But the key issue here is, how is stating uncertain reads (along with reasoning for being uncertain) not helping town? I, unlike scum (perhaps including you), can not make myself certain of reads.

You have yet to establish how stating uncertain reads helps Town at all. All you are doing in those large reads posts is telling us basically nothing. It’s one thing to adjust your reads each Day based on new information. It’s another to give reads that, as Zar has demonstrated, don’t appear to come to any definite conclusion on players.

-I've been demonstrating town intent all game. It is up to you to recognise it. To specifically try to demonstrate town intent would be scummy.

This is basically “No U”. You can’t just say you have been showing Town intent and not expect people who don’t see it to just go “Ok, nevermind”.

--

I voted for you to get the scummie. Magua did too. That's why I'm really wondering why it went to Quilford. And I think that we can connect this to the Fonz getting Best Newbie if we work it through. But I need to hear from BBMolla and theam (anytime with your in-depth reason) before I can try to game it out. I'm gunshy about setup speccing too hard after Ponybash Invitational but I want to look at this at least.

There isn’t much to really delve into on this IMO (and from your latest post I think you agree). Regardless of whether scum was in your QT or not there is every reason to think that with everyone there being Town and telling the truth about their votes that Quil just won a Coin-flip over me to get the Scummie. His death still gives the possibility that there was scum there and the scum manipulated the results to assure the Scummie died at Night. If that is the case then the question still remains – why choose to funnel to Quilford over me. Or outright just kill him over me with no Scummie consideration? I think we both had pretty strong overall general “Town” reads from the playerbase. So that leads me back to thinking his reads might be more accurate than mine.

[Zar]

Nevertheless, I know I am often wishy-washy according to the definition, but why does it make me scum?

Wishy-washyness is a way for scum to bait the game momentum. Saying for instance: "I think player X is scum, but I'm not sure", is not at all pro-active. You are removing yourself from making a case. You are asking others to convince you to go either way. This is convenient for scum; basically, it's a position in which they're not doing the scumhunt, they're simply letting others make cases that could backfire to the ones making them while keeping a distance.

-First, you did a lot of attacking of my reads before actually calling me scum, and I think you've fabricated the link between what I've done and you thinking I'm scum. Your attacking of my reads seems like scum trying to strongly attack someone, not town who is trying to better read me/convince others that I'm scum. And the basis of many of your points is actually quite weak. Most of it is just me saying I have a townread on someone without explaining it. I'll only answer it if you feel that you'll benefit from it.

Spoiler: Re-Enactment:

DeasVail: Zar is scummy, but I'm not sure, he seems genuine sometimes. OMG 558 is so scum.
Zar: Huh? What about 558?
DeasVail: Nevermind, sorry, I actually don't think that's scummy. OH BUT WAIT Reck said something that I really think is the scummy thing.
Zar: DV you are wishy-washy and vague on your reads, please ellaborate more
DeasVail: How?
Zar: Here and Here.
Deasvail:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Gy1eu- ... re=related

Now, let's go to ellaborate:

The way you are playing, you're gathering information, but withholding the reasons to your conclusions. It does not help others discern alignment. Also refusing to explain yourself is anti-town. Pressuring you to explain your train of thought is necessary to evaluate how sound your reads are: it helps organize the town and helps narrow the suspect pool. Scum is more likely to disguise their partners along wishy-washy stances in case they need to vote them out (

Hint: Reads like the ones you have been posting all over your ISO

). Scum is also more likely to be cautious and calculated on their posts, since playing it safe makes them less prone to scrutiny.

[BBmolla]

Magua Town fucked all my reads, so I have to reread before I can do much more. And I'm low on time. So yeah. Will do ASAP.

[Zar]

Then why are you not voting for him?

got distracted by the toddler tantrum.

VOTE K. Khan

[xRECKONERx]

He’s still posting on site while ignoring this game. And yes, posting in GD and other places takes less effort than games. That doesn’t mean it’s not indicative of scum who don’t feel like faking the effort of pretending to scum-hunt.

It also doesn't mean it's not indicative of town who doesn't feel like putting effort into the game.

Logical fallacies, I don't think you get them

[MagnaofIllusion]

It also doesn't mean it's not indicative of town who doesn't feel like putting effort into the game.

Logical fallacies, I don't think you get them

It's hardly a logical fallacy.

I'll put it simply. Town was put in a very good position Day 1 with the Ajax lynch. Any Townie who isn't completely made of fail should be very interested in doing their utmost to find the remaining two scum and win this game for themselves, their Town, and their Team.

I don't think by any stretch KK is made of fail as a general player. He certainly doesn't have a Best Serial Killer scummie for being incompetent at this game.

Yet his play here by no stretch of the imagination shows any hint of 'Town wanting to find scum' IMO. His Day 1 reads were pretty universally terrible (TheAm being the only unknown ... he was clearly wrong about Ajax and Quilford). Day 2 he hopped on the Magua express to mislynch Town. Today he's done nothing.

I appreciate that you take one small part of my post and straw-man my statement. Yes, that's sarcasm.
You've stated you think KK is very Town for his QT play. That's fantastic. I can't see said play and based on his in-thread play I don't see him as Town.

If you want to demolish my case on him feel free. But just throwing this down isn't helpful.

[DeasVail]

got distracted by the toddler tantrum.

If you say so.

Notice I'm the one that actually wants to lynch you.

[DeasVail]

MoI:

I'll address anything else later, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about my uncertain reads. They've generated a lot more discussion than my read on Zar, for example. Also, it's only Molla that I haven't reached a stance on.

[DeasVail]

Also, I don't have an everyone is scum who suspects me theory.

I suspected Zar before he even called me scum! There!

And Ajax defended me if anything.

[hitogoroshi]

Hmm. I'm not really feeling Zar-scum right now. Although Zar, you are hereby bared from saying "wishy-washy" ever ever again, please and thanking you.

I think my top scum read is T-bone atm, with KK in the number two. I really don't like how T-bone called theam super obvious scum, I post this:

I know T-Bone's vote on Ajax looks clean, but bus one + lurk to victory isn't the newest thing under the sun, and I'm really bugged by this:

Definitely agree on Theam. Honestly the only reason at this point I was calling him town was because Ajax flipped scum. I can subscribe to Hito's(I think) theory that Theam is scum and Ajax's vote on the wagon was to give Theam town credit. His ISO reads like a 'greatest hits list' of this is exactly how scum play.

If his ISO is "a greatest hits list of exactly how scum play", you're not going to follow it through at all?

and he ignores it, backs off of theam being obvscum and just says "it's gotta be someone in group 2b", and then votes. It always raises my hackles when someone tries to lynch under a false constraint, and I especially don't like his theam read being dialed down without warning to just being PoE, especially when he makes sure to say he agrees with Reck about the 1 in 3.

Vote: T-Bone

[T-Bone]

@MoI - I think it's a good possibility. As I pointed out (yesterday I think), I really did not like his Day 2 play. He didn't provide much, if any, of his own thoughts. Most of his posting is defending and justifying his posts and actions. He starts defending his actions early Day 1, of course that's a natural way to play. Come Day 2, other than his initial Day 2 post, the rest of his Day 2 is him defending himself from you. The one thing that set alarms for me is 468. I made a comment where I had read KK town early because I believed he town-slipped early Day 1. That was my opinion. You really can't be your own judge of town-slipping. That read to me like he posted that to remind everyone "hey look at me being a stupid townie right here". Him asking Theam to replace left a bad taste in my mouth. The only apparent scum-hunting that came from him Day 2 was from his team. Oh and deciding to vote Magua, but that lynch was almost guaranteed to happen at the start of the day so I'd call that preemptive bandwagoning. It boils down that his Day 2 play is scummy.

I feel a bit stronger on Theam at this point. Theam was scummy from Day 1. KK got progressively scummy as the game wore on. Too much happenstance on Theam over the course of this game leans my vote on him. He plays incredibly scummy all game, as has been pointed out despite being the Ajax counterwagon Ajax didn't try to get him lynched very hard, and him being in Group 2B and scum managing to nightkill another award recipient, it's hard to not see Theam as scum.

Does that help Hito? I apparently missed a single question you asked, sorry for not doing my due diligence I guess. I've been documenting my thoughts on Theam the entire game. So in that quote, you don't like that I don't vote for him in that post. Why not? Oh but when I get more information about him, it becomes a bad vote? Other than a few questions other this game, you've not mentioned me at all. And since I haven't posted between your last two posts, what in my game changed between #654 and #665? It's not like in #654 that you hadn't read my post at that point. I've been documenting my thoughts on Theam the entire game.

[DeasVail]

MoI:

I do not recall being overly impressed by your case on KK and the stuff about him in 656 is particularly unconvincing, so it does little to override my reasons for thinking him town.

Also, I don't have a "only scum would suspect me stance". Know that that was not a big part of my suspicion of Fonz.

Why are you attacking me when Zar is saying that I should try harder to look like I have town intent?

~~

I think Zar has just been disregarding what I've been saying since he started suspecting me and trying too hard to maintain a scumread on me. Even after I explained that me saying someone "seems like town, but [question]" doesn't mean I don't think they're town, he still says all my reads are wishy-washy.

I know that as scum, I really have to push myself to keep "suspecting" town and I feel that's what Zar is doing here.

I will now have another look through Zar's ISO to possibly reassess and/or post a case of sorts. I will also have another look at T-bone, except I think that for me he comes across as scummy, but may not necessarily be scum.

[DeasVail]

Hito:

If you have any thoughts regarding Zar that you'd like to share, please do.

Zar

Q:

What was the purpose of 92?

-95 is townish.
-189 is fake.
-Barely any attempt shown to read Ajax, which is odd considering he was such a big wagon and Zar actually said he didn't like Ajax's contributions. He focuses on other players more.
-340 a last attempt to bus considering Ajax is going to be lynched?
-His inclusion of himself in his analysis and later justification of it is scummy.
-What I've already said about his posting regarding my reads.
-Also, I've been thinking about this one, and I think that if Zar really thought theam was scum when he voted for him, he would have actually questioned the theory of Ajax-scum clearing Zar rather than just going with it without much attempt at considering the possiblities.

Q:

Why do you feel the need to discredit me?

Q:

Why am I a weaker scumread than KK?

T-Bone

-I find 58 really townish. I think town are more likely to feel like that than scum and I don't see scum faking it at such an early stage.
-Other than that I get mixed feelings about him. Also he seems to have ignored the fact that scum have super secret judging interference powers. The flip-flop on theam seems too overt to be from scum (unless they are buddies).
-Reading hito's reasoning makes me less sure, but I want to see T-Bone's response before making a decision.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I see Kublai is continuing to spread out his posts to a prod-dodge level and continues to hope that others who actually post in the thread get attention and thus lynched. Classic scum lurking.

@Hito

– Post 665 is very intellectually lazy and I’m quite disappointed. You’ve vaulted T-Bone to your top suspect simply based on a single post today. When you get back I expect you to move your vote to KK. You got your Magua wagon yesterday when KK was much more likely to flip scum. Furthermore you are going to have to really sell lynching a second player from Group 1A given we have already got a scum flip from there. So just vote KK.

@T-Bone

– vote KK. A KK flip more or less rules TheAm out as the third scum. KK’s been obv-scummy all game.

--

MoI: I'll address anything else later, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about my uncertain reads. They've generated a lot more discussion than my read on Zar, for example. Also, it's only Molla that I haven't reached a stance on.

How shocking that you disagree with someone’s assessment that your play isn’t very Town oriented

I’ll be frank … this is pure fluff and pointless posting.

Also, I don't have an everyone is scum who suspects me theory.

That’s quite funny. Because you specifically indicated that Fonz was suspect in Post 336 and Post 337 for having suspicion of you despite calling him Town / Null all Day 1 prior to that. Your stance moved him to scum only after he called you out.

You ‘retracted’ my Town-read Day 2 because I dared call you out for your Anti-Town behavior.

As to you suspecting Zar before he started in on you let’s look at that from a factual standpoint.

Post 195 – He’s specifically null and ‘to be worked out later’. Sorry, that’s not suspicion that’s “I can’t be arsed to commit to anything”

Post 250 –

There's a reason why I think Zar is town, but I want to wait before revealing it.

That sure as hell doesn’t look like suspicion to me. In fact it’s the opposite.

Ok, if Zar's post voting for BBmolla was serious, then he's scummy, but saying BBmolla is lurky, probably can't come from scum. Can it?

Look .. more lines of post that mean nothing.

Post 509 –

Magua: I will have a decent townread on Reck if you flip town, yes. Zar is my weakest townread, so I guess I'd look at him. I'm not quite sure who else though. Why did you want to know?

Oh look again – he’s your weakest Townread. That’s still not suspicion.

Post 590 –

Zar- I think he could be scum. How he comes around to thinking Magua scum does seem suspicious. 558 is like "I voted for Magua so I better start attacking him", but sometimes he seems genuine. Question: Why were you so dramatic in your vote for Molla Day 1? Why did you leave yourself in the lists in 408?

So only after Day 3 starts do we have any sign of Zar not being scum. So your ‘I suspected Zar way before he began in on me’ hardly is a stance that you aren’t trying to retrofit.

And Ajax defended me if anything.

Your point?

MoI: I do not recall being overly impressed by your case on KK and the stuff about him in 656 is particularly unconvincing, so it does little to override my reasons for thinking him town.

Well honestly we are at an impasse because I think your ‘Town tell’ reason for saying KK is Town is monumentally stupid. You want to point out what is wrong with the case I wrote Day 2 have at it. Given you just want to handwave it away and keep defending my strongest scum-read I’m really not all that interested in your theories at this point.

Why are you attacking me when Zar is saying that I should try harder to look like I have town intent?

It’s called scum-hunting. Why are you so shocked that you would be suspected? There are two scum left. You are one of my non-Town reads. Further you keep ardently defending my top scum-read KK. Your little back and forth with Zar leads me to believe that the two of you aren’t partners.

You sudden interest in T-Bone prompted only by Hito’s suspicion when prior to Post 667 you have consistently called him Town also dings my scum-dar.

[DeasVail]

You sudden interest in T-Bone prompted only by Hito’s suspicion when prior to Post 667 you have consistently called him Town also dings my scum-dar.

It really shouldn't considering what you know of me.

I suspected (and even voted for) someone who defended me! Shocking, I know.

Thanks for reminding me about that reason I had for calling Zar town. I've actually forgotten completely what it was. I may try and work it out.

So you think I'm scum with KK, or....?

Also, what do you think of KK asking my alignment preference considering I know both Amrun and Kuribo would have reason to think I'd take scum?

[DeasVail]

Oh and my point was that he didn't call me scum until after I started calling him scum, and my suspicion on Fonz wasn't just because he suspected me. I thought my reasoning was decent.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It really shouldn't considering what you know of me.

No, flippant one-liner responses don’t fly at this stage. What, exactly, should I know about you that would make your sudden suspicion understandable from a Town perspective. I’d like an actual explanation.

I suspected (and even voted for) someone who defended me! Shocking, I know.

Again, your point? Do you think the possibility that scum partners would take disparate routes of treatment of each other is unusual given Zach’s game where I distanced heavily from fitz and he constantly called me Town?

Please explain to me why your vote on Ajax wasn’t the weakest of all non-Magua votes on the wagon. With links if you are up to it!

Thanks for reminding me about that reason I had for calling Zar town. I've actually forgotten completely what it was. I may try and work it out.

Oh, so you had a secret reason for Zar being Town that you’ve forgotten and only when I reminded you of it do you feel the need to ‘reasssess’?

So you think I'm scum with KK, or....?

Also, what do you think of KK asking my alignment preference considering I know both Amrun and Kuribo would have reason to think I'd take scum?

Have you been reading? This is a serious question.

I clearly don’t think you are scum with KK. My “these players are pretty solidly clear” statement when discussing his hypo-flip at the start of the Day laid that out clearly.

Your play in calling him Town is pretty damn inexplicable to me at this stage. You are basically ignoring the entirety of his play that is scummy in thread based on your ‘Town tell’. That stinks to high heaven of an invented ‘Town read’. If KK is Town I think you shoot to the top of my list (along with TheAm) for scum. You are treating him like I treated you in Zach’s game – sticking with a Town read for no good reason.

I want KK dead first as he’s to me the most obvious scum in the thread by far. I can buy you Town being terrible in reading Scum-KK (much like Magua was in reading Ajax) by far more than I can buy you Town having a Town read on Town-KK.

I don’t think anything of him asking your alignment preference. I’m not sure what your point is on that.

Oh and my point was that he didn't call me scum until after I started calling him scum, and my suspicion on Fonz wasn't just because he suspected me. I thought my reasoning was decent.

Clearly the flip shows your reasoning on Fonz was terrible.

[T-Bone]

I think you're right. KK has been pushing Theam on and off all game. I can buy that his flip tells us more than Theam's. I'm sold.

Unvote Vote: KK

I'd still like to discuss the 2B thing as a contingent plan. MoI, what are your thoughts about someone in that group being scum, since Quilford was killed with a scummie? Ajax was scum in our group 1A which saw the scummies go to Fonz and he got killed. With it happening again in 2B, despite Hito claiming the majority vote probably went to you, we've got a similar situation as we did last time, only this time we don't know who, if any is scum in the group.I know we're getting into WIFOM territory a little by discussing Quilford's kill, but I think its important to decide if there was more tampering by scum, or just bad luck. Players in that group were Magua, Hito, BB, and Theam.

@Group 2B, what did that scummy do anyway?

[theamatuer]

It's a jailkeep. Btw,what does newbie scummy do? I have a suspicion on what it is though