Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[chesskid3]

and the tracker.

[Tammy]

But why didn't you guys kill him the night you killed Mhork?

[Pine]

Town PRs got lucky. Very lucky. I was mostly shooting in the dark with my "copboner" for chesskid.

I don't think you're correctly valuing the two scumkills per Town lynch, Chesskid. If we'd mislynched two more times, even with Town PRs getting lucky, scum would've had it. If you people hadn't crosskilled, scum may have had it anyway. This was actually a lot closer than you're making it out to be, despite Town making ZERO bad lynches.

[Regfan]

I actually found the setup tilting towards the scum due to 2 scum-related kills to every town 1 and no incentive for scum to cross-kill.

I don't think the town power roles were as strong as people are making them out to be either and I think the main reason that both towns won so easily at the end of the day was due to poor night play by the scum and bad claiming. Mhork should never have been a night-kill, neither should have MoS and scum (Can blame each other all you want) should have shot Pine so they don't have to worry about lying/getting caught lying about their alignment later. Also Shadoweh/BB were eventually undone by their claims and were run up due to being scummy.

Also I think Feysal/Pere at the end of the day played their PRs very well, they managed to appear scummy enough to avoid ever being night-killed but not scummy enough that they were ever a leading lynch candidate. It's the perfect way to play the roles they were given. Oversoul on the other hand...

[Regfan]

Can we get some links to the scum QTs please?

[Shadoweh]

The Lawful QT is very small. :< We uh.. didn't talk much.

I wouldn't say I was undone by my claim. I was assuming I was already dead and less valuable then the roleblocker. The claim was made to be countered and revealed a bunch of people that had no idea how spells worked. And greenknight. I should have claimed chaotic and set a better example, BBmolla's claim made me cry inside.

[Haze]

Well I did jack all this game.

Good job on the win that had practically nothing to do with me. Don't think a /single/ of my reads were correct.

lol.

[Faraday]

Cool, given the amount of room town had to manoeuvre I'd say this was mostly balanced. They had some strong prs but could easily get screwed in terms of mislynches, so yeah.

Also me and Seacore are currently working on ADWD Mafia (HINT HINT SEACORE)

[Faraday]

Mastin: I'm absolutely disgusted you would even CONSIDER tactically replacing out of a game.

[Tammy]

I need to start trusting some of my early instincts more. I had a scum read on LMP in the pre-crash thread, a scum read on Skenvoy's post in this thread, a scum read on Mastin upon entrance and a meh feeling on Maniacal Lemon, and a scum read on Shadoweh - should have pushed for her first day actually. Should have listened to my doubts about Cooldog and his "confusion" over the set up, but so many people were so certain he was town I let my self be swayed.

I'd have never voted for BB though, mostly because I'm susceptible to people defending me, and I would have never voted for MoS I don't think.

gg all!

Thanks for running is Seacore.

[greenknight]

GG all. Thanks in particular to Seacore for keeping the game running smoothly through replacement hell.

I still think the setup was overall scum sided for much the same reasons as Regfan. (I feel that chaotic town apathy towards lynching a lawful player was a major factor in the day 5 TD speed lynch.) The PR ratios are pretty much what would be expected in a 10:3 game after all, and the half-doctors and L/C cop are fairly weak roles pre-massclaim. CE were playing well but got very unlucky with night actions, and LE really can't complain about the Pine scan because they failed to kill him earlier.

I felt town as a whole did a good job of scum hunting on day 2 after a very unproductive day 1.

[Pine]

Cool, given the amount of room town had to manoeuvre I'd say this was mostly balanced. They had some strong prs but could easily get screwed in terms of mislynches, so yeah.

Also me and Seacore are currently working on ADWD Mafia (HINT HINT SEACORE)

I can has pre/in?

[Feysal]

And so the game ends in a dual town victory. I'm well pleased. It was not perfect, but overall I think both towns played well.

This is only my second town victory on site, and the first where I was correct on the final lynch when it counted. Still my play definitely had room for improvement. I started out pretty excited, having received my first significant power role, and I think I actually had the highest post count in the original thread. Later I slipped back into lurking, and when Shadoweh and BBmolla were wagoned, I was pretty out of touch with what was going on. I got my bearings quickly enough though. After that I just kept my vote on BBmolla and waited for the passage of time to get me the lynch while the rest of the town argued. I was certain then that BBmolla would be lynched at the end of the day even if I did not claim, and claiming would only draw a night kill from scum, so I kept silent. That day my lurking was intentional too. I don't know why MoS was so certain about BBmolla being scum, but I made sure I was playing second violin to his first to protect myself.

Also I think Feysal/Pere at the end of the day played their PRs very well, they managed to appear scummy enough to avoid ever being night-killed but not scummy enough that they were ever a leading lynch candidate. It's the perfect way to play the roles they were given. Oversoul on the other hand...

Oddly enough, I never managed to do anything significant with my ability. The only things of any importance I learned were from failures, which enabled me to confirm the actions of others.

Now that I remember, the reason I tried to investigate MoI on the first night was because I suspected them, and I knew they would not be an easy target to lynch, so I felt I needed solid information to use as ammunition. When he claimed to have super secret reasons for me being town, that clinched it. I've seen too many false claims from MoI, the individual player. I'll be interested to find out how many players actually targeted him that night.

The Lawful QT is very small. :< We uh.. didn't talk much.

I can imagine. I can also imagine Seacore's desperation when he made post #894... half of the total scum needing replacement at the same time. I don't know if there is a record for highest number of replacements needed in a game, but this game had more than I've ever seen.

Should have listened to my doubts about Cooldog and his "confusion" over the set up, but so many people were so certain he was town I let my self be swayed.

That goes for me too. I did reconsider my read of CooLDoG a number of times, but I could never get over the fact that Seacore had made a clarification post about the setup in the original thread soon after CooLDoG's crackpot theorizing. That appeared to confirm there was real confusion, and CooLDoG had displayed his in thread.

By the way, I have a minor confession to make. I criticized Mastin for supposedly suspecting Nacho for not answering when he asked if he was town, but I can similarly pinpoint the moment I decided you were town to a single post. It was #684, specifically the bit about

swimming

. I don't think that reason would have gone over well so I shut up about it, and even now I don't think I can satisfactorily explain why I got a town read from that, it just felt like something only town would say. After that I never doubted you again. I'm sure I could have come up with better reasons if I'd had to defend you, but that never happened.

[Pine]

Nacho was playing really scummy Town. Uncool bro.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now that I remember, the reason I tried to investigate MoI on the first night was because I suspected them, and I knew they would not be an easy target to lynch, so I felt I needed solid information to use as ammunition. When he claimed to have super secret reasons for me being town, that clinched it. I've seen too many false claims from MoI, the individual player. I'll be interested to find out how many players actually targeted him that night.

More comments in the morning ... just wanted to say that

A. Lots of players targetted us
B. You can't read me very well Feysal

[Zdenek]

chesskid was caught due to guilty and likely would have lasted longer.

From my perspective he was the only claimed chaotic left at the end who made any sense as scum, so I hope this wouldn't have been the case.

The game was a lot of fun.

I'm happy to finally have an example of scum proposing tp use an anti-town strategy at the start of the game.

[Feysal]

You can't read me very well Feysal

Really? I've had a scum read on you in every game we've played, excluding ones where I was scum, and this is the first time I've been wrong.

[Seacore]

x7

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Guy.

Alignment

: Lawful Good

Class

: Commoner

Class Abilities

: Nil

Win Condition:

You win when all

Chaotic Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Lawful Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Guy.

Alignment

: Lawful Good

Class

: Paladin

Class Abilities

: Detect Evil - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the Mod. If your action is successful you will learn if they are

Evil

or

Not Evil

.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Chaotic Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Lawful Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Guy.

Alignment

: Lawful Good

Class

: Cleric

Class Abilities

: Protection from Chaos - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will prevent any action targeting that player, caused by a

Chaotic

player.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Chaotic Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Lawful Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Guy.

Alignment

: Lawful Good

Class

: Wizard

Class Abilities

: Detect Thoughts - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will learn that player's

Class

.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Chaotic Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Lawful Good

player is left alive.

x7

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Good

Class

: Commoner

Class Abilities

: Nil

Win Condition:

You win when all

Lawful Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Chaotic Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Good

Class

: Bard

Class Abilities

: Detect Law - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will learn if they are

Lawful

or

Not Lawful

.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Lawful Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Chaotic Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Good

Class

: Cleric

Class Abilities

: Protection from Law - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will prevent any action targeting that player, caused by a

Lawful

player.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Lawful Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Chaotic Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Good

Class

: Ranger

Class Abilities

: Tracking - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will learn who that player targets with actions that Night.

Win Condition:

You win when all

Lawful Evil

players have been eliminated and at least one

Chaotic Good

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Evil

Class

: Rogue

Class Abilities

: Hide in Shadows - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, you will learn who targets that player that Night.

Factional Abilities

: Kill - Each Night, one member of your faction may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, that player will die.
Conspiracy - Each Night and before Day 1 starts, you may communicate with your faction members here

Win Condition:

You win when the number of living

Lawful Good

players equals the number of living

Chaotic Evil

players and at least one

Chaotic Evil

player is left alive.

x2

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Chaotic Evil

Class

: Commoner

Class Abilities

: Nil

Factional Abilities

: Kill - Each Night, one member of your faction may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, that player will die.
Conspiracy - Each Night and before Day 1 starts, you may communicate with your faction members here

Win Condition:

You win when the number of living

Lawful Good

players equals the number of living

Chaotic Evil

players and at least one

Chaotic Evil

player is left alive.

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Lawful Evil

Class

: Wizard

Class Abilities

: Hold Person - Each Night you may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, that player will not be successful in any action they take that Night.

Factional Abilities

: Kill - Each Night, one member of your faction may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, that player will die.
Conspiracy - Each Night and before Day 1 starts, you may communicate with your faction members here

Win Condition:

You win when the number of living

Chaotic Good

players equals the number of living

Lawful Evil

players and at least one

Lawful Evil

player is left alive.

x2

Welcome to

Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Mafia

, Lady.

Alignment

: Lawful Evil

Class

: Commoner

Class Abilities

: Nil

Factional Abilities

: Kill - Each Night, one member of your faction may target another player by submitting their name in a PM to the mod. If successful, that player will die.
Conspiracy - Each Night and before Day 1 starts, you may communicate with your faction members here

Win Condition:

You win when the number of living

Chaotic Good

players equals the number of living

Lawful Evil

players and at least one

Lawful Evil

player is left alive.

[Seacore]

So, there were two cops. the bard and the paladin.

But they're only half cops, each of them will get some false positives on their own objective. The paladin can out himself and reveal an evil player, but what if that player is lawful evil? He's outted himself and hasn't helped his team. Similarly for the bard but just a bit more obviously not a pure cop.
The clerics protected from death, but they also protected from other abilities, meaning they interfered with investigations.
The wizard classcop isn't quite the same as a rolecop, since you didn't necessarily know what the role did, so it's closer to a flavour cop.
The tracker was pure, but again, could have outted themselves hunting the wrong scum.

When it became clear there were two NKs each night, compared to only one lynch, a lot of town players said this was scum sided, and it looked to be heading that way. I was toying with the idea of including a NG Vig that wins if both good teams win and loses and leaves the game if one evil team wins. Now i'm not so sure.

I don't think scum played great games. Not always terrible, but not great. If chesskid hadn't ... well, been chesskid, then I think mastin was in with a chance. he'd have probably killed Feysal and then tried for a push on Nacho. Tammy would have been the decider there. Could have gone either way maybe.

List of night actions can be found here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... mZ5enZHU1E

The replacements were an absolute nightmare. Lots of new people on my blacklist. But thanks to everybody who stuck it out through that, and all the replacements that came in and stuck it through.

Faraday is going to bully me into aDwD Mafia, but then i'll get onto a sequel of this game.

I'm curious as to how people feel this game worked as a dynamic. Was it really that different from a single town game? Or not really worth the point of difference?

[Junpei]

I didn't scumhunt any differently. The two town mechanic though does create interesting role resolution as well as endgame solutions which did happen in this game.

I wonder how it would be if the first faction to win is the sole winner.. The setup obviously would have to be much changed. It'd also be a quicker game.

[chesskid3]

scorched earth is the way to go man

[Faraday]

I didn't scumhunt any differently. The two town mechanic though does create interesting role resolution as well as endgame solutions which did happen in this game.

You were chaotic though, right?

It definitely felt different as Lawful, there was a strong desire to NOT be killed fmpov, as we were already 3 down when I replaced in. So being a bit more annoying/weird to try and dodge that seemed like a good strategy early on.

[greenknight]

It definitely felt different as Lawful, there was a strong desire to NOT be killed fmpov, as we were already 3 down when I replaced in. So being a bit more annoying/weird to try and dodge that seemed like a good strategy early on.

Yeah... I definitely felt you were playing weird on purpose and it made you harder to read. Survival play being incentivized in this way is another reason I believe dual towns to be inherently scum sided.

Feysal, I thought MoI was suspicious too because he attacked me in a way I felt was pretty contrived which reminded me of his scum play in AFFC. I might well have protected the hydra if not for this. I thought you were the 1 person in the entire game who was clearly town on day 1 and thus a likely target for scum either trying to protect or frame MoI.

[Lord Mhork]

Well thanks for running this, Seacore! I know that I definitely did not play to my top here... I think I'm going to stick to smaller games for awhile.

I've still absolutely no clue why I died, but it was best for the town.

And sorry, Shadoweh! Maybe next time we play we can be on the same side!

[Feysal]

Mastermind of Sin - Night 1 - Watch Pine - targeted by BBmolla

I knew it. There had to be a reason why MoS was so single mindedly pushing BBmolla.