Mini 1350: Spartacus Blood and Sand Mafia Day 2

[PeregrineV]

OK caught up.

My newest reads:
Derpy, Noob, inte, Whisper as town
Null: Phil, Matt, Fitz, Shotgun, Dan
Scum: CodeX, matais, Defender

Why did you give Phil a null read here?

We were neighbors to me, masons to him.

I was given the possibility he was traitor, making him a neighbor. In the QT, he expressed nothing of the sort, acting as if we were masons.

So I based it on his actual play, which was less than town.

pedit: OK. You think I should have waited or something? When would have been a better time to claim the guy lynched day1 was connected to me?

[MattP]

In a massclaim in mid-late game like everyone else why should you claim earlier?

[Apple Jack]

here are the issues I have

Perengine you said so matter of fact that defender killed your partner and than later you just say your vote is based on your suspicion on him. Why would you make a declaring statement like that?

secondly - also you realize neighbors can be all town or town and scum, so you claiming neighbors thinking it somehow clears you as town is scummy

third - unless I missed it, I don't see where you explain why Code, Matias, and Defender are your scum reads. Can you please explain this?

[MattP]

Hey PV has like no mention of dr ever and has him as a null read

This fits perfectly into my theory

[whispersilk]

@PeregrineV:

If you believed there was a chance that Phil was a traitor, but knew that he considered the two of you masons, why would you give him a null read, when doing so could tip him off (assuming that he was a traitor)?

[mafia-n00b]

Mafia-noob, how is this a perfect claim? The execution sucked.

Well, the way it was claimed may not be ideal, but think about it... it's a claim that can't be disproven by a counter-claim and basically made him conftown.

[MattP]

Well, the way it was claimed may not be ideal, but think about it... it's a claim that can't be disproven by a counter-claim and basically made him conftown.

But it doesn't make him conftown >.>

I can claim unCC'd Jupiter's Left Testicle, that doesn't make me conftown

[Messiah]

Prepare to have your collective craniums expanded beyond a point of no return. Are you ready? Good.

Page by Page Analysis

1 - Nada.

2A - Inexplicable push to wagon DerpyHooves by inte. I can only assume this was an attempt to place pressure on him and get reads.
2B -Active lurking is a scum tell(re: drmyshotgun).

3A - D1 miller claim is proper town play. Policy lynching the miller before LyLo if it becomes obvious there's no vig to help out is also proper town play. A lot of you seem to be confused by one or both of these concepts, so I'll give you a history lesson if necessary.
3B - 3C - Do you guys scum hunt at all? This is ... n00b [url=. Flip, flop, flip, flop, flip, flop, flip, flop. A pro-town player should be attempting to build some kind of case, not switching their vote constantly and giving weak reasoning for their new suspect.
5B - Good lord, how is there no D3f3nd3r wagon yet(re: page 5, not currently)?
5C - Pine pretending to contribute.

6A - Not even pretending now. We're late enough in the game that there should be no tolerance for the kind of garbage that Pine and D3f3nd3r are shoving down our throats.

7A - mafia-n00b on this page is so cringe inducing. ISO post haste.

8A - I had already put in my personal notes(twice, actually) that PeregrineV felt really off and fluffy to me, but my feelings weren't entirely concrete enough to throw in here. .(Actually, do look further. ISO should be just the ticket. Let me know if anyone felt the same saw at all. I have tons of confidence in my gut reads, but pinning them down is tricky.)
8B - D3f3nd3r's ISO should speak for itself at this point, but just in case: 9A - ActionDan decides to exist and def ... s garbage. Where's the reasoning? He hardly ever mentioned him before this at all, let alone building a case.

20A - I can't decide if ActionDan is just a terrible player or a scummy player.(This is a running theme in this game, if you hadn't noticed.)

22A - D3f3nd3r against his lynch: "Why lynch a guy who claimed town?"
22B - Flailing and AtE from D3f3nd3r.

23A - Still don't have a concrete opinion on fitz.

vote2: D3f3nd3r

This is the part where we leave the catch up posting and get into real time play.

Hey Messiah (Matias's replacement), can we get some reads and stuff from you?

You've

got

to be kidding. You're in way too deep to make pseudo-useful comments like this and have anyone fall for it.

Vote1: Code_X

Pietros was my lover (not the mafia definition, but the gladiator one).

We were neighbors to me, masons to him. Together we had power, now we have none.

Vote2: Defender

For killing my lover and being scum.

This is really bizarre and useless, what with the no role flips and the fact that Phil literally never mentioned you a single time and you didn't seem to breadcrumb your connection at all.

The fact that it relies on a plot-driven connection between the characters make it even worse because it gives it an air of legitimacy that I feel is unwarranted.

Having never seen the show or anything, is this a mason/neighbor group that would make sense based on the story of the show? Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean.

basically made him conftown.

No.

---

Let's take a look at the two lynch wagons.

Confirmed Town

On both wagons

Phillammon

:

inte

,

ActionDan

,

drmyshotgun

, Matias, Code_X, D3f3nd3r,

havingfitz

D3f3nd3r: whispersilk, mafia-n00b,

drmyshotgun

,

havingfitz

,

ActionDan

,

inte

, MattP

If there aren't two scum on Phil's wagon I'll eat my hat. Normally I'd simply push for my D3f3nd3r lynch and work from there, but I can't do that in this setup. I've been at this for over three hours now and I'm terribly exhausted from the rest of the day. Expect my other vote later today or tomorrow after I re-read with the intention of looking at ActionDan and havingfitz more closely.

[Messiah]

EBWODP: Proof reading is class. 19A should link here.

[Messiah]

Actually, it looks like all of my urls got hosed. That's.. annoying. I'm just going to re-do that whole area.

Page by Page Analysis

1 - Nada.

2A - Inexplicable push to wagon DerpyHooves by inte. I can only assume this was an attempt to place pressure on him and get reads.
2B -Active lurking is a scum tell(re: drmyshotgun).

3A - D1 miller claim is proper town play. Policy lynching the miller before LyLo if it becomes obvious there's no vig to help out is also proper town play. A lot of you seem to be confused by one or both of these concepts, so I'll give you a history lesson if necessary.
3B - Why hello there giant red flag.
3C - Holy shit. Do you guys scum hunt at all? This is terrible play at best and scummy at worst.
3D - re: Pinesaying that DerpyHooves' reactions to his weird wagon are scummy and justify leaving his RVS vote there, I totally disagree. This reeks of scum being lazy.

4A - Code_X mostly has the right idea re: lynching millers here, after he figured out what a miller actually was. I can't decide if drmyshotgun is scrambling scum trying defend himself against all odds in this argument or if he's just poorly informed at the theory behind the whole thing.

5A - Still don't like mafia-n00b here. Flip, flop, flip, flop, flip, flop, flip, flop. A pro-town player should be attempting to build some kind of case, not switching their vote constantly and giving weak reasoning for their new suspect.
5B - Good lord, how is there no D3f3nd3r wagon yet(re: page 5, not currently)?
5C - Pine pretending to contribute.

6A - Not even pretending now. We're late enough in the game that there should be no tolerance for the kind of garbage that Pine and D3f3nd3r are shoving down our throats.

7A - mafia-n00b on this page is so cringe inducing. ISO post haste.

8A - I had already put in my personal notes(twice, actually) that PeregrineV felt really off and fluffy to me, but my feelings weren't entirely concrete enough to throw in here. Look no further.(Actually, do look further. ISO should be just the ticket. Let me know if anyone felt the same saw at all. I have tons of confidence in my gut reads, but pinning them down is tricky.)
8B - D3f3nd3r's ISO should speak for itself at this point, but just in case: Clicky.

9A - ActionDan decides to exist and defends D3f3nder quickly. Noted.
9B - Peregrine contributes. Yay!
9C - Either I'm glancing over a bunch of D3f3nd3r posts or he's not even trying to play.

10A - Does anyone have Pine meta? Is he usually this awful?

11A - DerpyHooves has been obvtown all game. This is a good time to throw it out here.
11B - I agree with my fantastically flaky predecessor in that I don't like havingfitz much at all, but it's more of a gut thing. I've already been at this for over an hour and he isn't anywhere near being my top priority right now so I'll substantiate the read later.
11C - @D3f3nd3r: If you really are lurking just because you don't think you're a very good player(I don't buy this at all, in any case. You immediately appeared to be a better player by attempting to contribute in this and future posts.), please stop. Irregardless of the "is lurking scummy" debate it's still anti-town at best.

12A - D3f3nd3r puts Phil at L-1 because he's not contributing enough. Right.

12-15 - MattP coming in. This was two or three pages of insanity. MattP is town.

15A - I really can't read drmyshotgun to save my life. I could definitely see this as town on town stuff.

17A - Unabashed waffling from mafia-n00b continues to be on display.
17B - Everything Derpy said here was pure gold. I'll just quote this bit for posterity:

And holy shit did mafia n00b just say he will bandwagon whichever wagon grows the largest? I mean how can we have 6 or 7 obviously scummy people but there is no way we can have 6-7 scum. There are some really fucking dumb town in this game.

18A - I continue to be torn on the MattP vs drmyshotgun battle.

19A - This is garbage. Where's the reasoning? He hardly ever mentioned him before this at all, let alone building a case.

20A - I can't decide if ActionDan is just a terrible player or a scummy player.(This is a running theme in this game, if you hadn't noticed.)

22A - D3f3nd3r against his lynch: "Why lynch a guy who claimed town?"
22B - Flailing and AtE from D3f3nd3r.

23A - Still don't have a concrete opinion on fitz.

Sorry about that.

[D3f3nd3r]

Ur response to my 611 is complete BS. You're acting like asking for a new player's reads is a scum slip. Even after lurking like I was, I want to know where people are with their reads.

[MattP]

It looks like confirmation bias

[Apple Jack]

Defender, why would you ask for reads for a replacement and ignore an accusation you killed someone?

Where are your reads? Who is scum and why?

[mafia-n00b]

Well, the way it was claimed may not be ideal, but think about it... it's a claim that can't be disproven by a counter-claim and basically made him conftown.

But it doesn't make him conftown >.>

I can claim unCC'd Jupiter's Left Testicle, that doesn't make me conftown

Well, yeah... if you don't believe him, obviously.

[Messiah]

Not really. Asking useless questions that seem somewhat inquisitive is a good way for scum to try to skate by without taking any hard stances or trying to actually play the game. There was no reason for you to ask me to give any reads, I hadn't even posted yet. Presumably I'd take care of that when I finished reading and compiling my post.

[mafia-n00b]

@Messiah: Don't fall for Derpy's twisting of my words in 17B. I clearly said that I was happy with EITHER OF TWO lynches and would vote for whichever got to L-1 first. I was NOT saying that I'd vote for ANY wagon that got big.

[Messiah]

I was NOT saying that I'd vote for ANY wagon that got big.

I didn't read it that way anyway(your original post or Derpy's interpretation of it), so we're probably good. I was mostly focusing on the second and third sentence from that quote, considering I addressed your play directly in the point before that.

[PeregrineV]

here are the issues I have

Perengine you said so matter of fact that defender killed your partner and than later you just say your vote is based on your suspicion on him. Why would you make a declaring statement like that?

598.
defender as scum was separate.

secondly - also you realize neighbors can be all town or town and scum, so you claiming neighbors thinking it somehow clears you as town is scummy

Read the complete claim and tell me you understand how we were not exactly neighbors.

third - unless I missed it, I don't see where you explain why Code, Matias, and Defender are your scum reads. Can you please explain this?

Sure. Will do tomorrow. Kid stuff first.

[Apple Jack]

here are the issues I have

Perengine you said so matter of fact that defender killed your partner and than later you just say your vote is based on your suspicion on him. Why would you make a declaring statement like that?

598.
defender as scum was separate.

secondly - also you realize neighbors can be all town or town and scum, so you claiming neighbors thinking it somehow clears you as town is scummy

Read the complete claim and tell me you understand how we were not exactly neighbors.

third - unless I missed it, I don't see where you explain why Code, Matias, and Defender are your scum reads. Can you please explain this?

Sure. Will do tomorrow. Kid stuff first.

1. derp at me lol
2. I read it as you are neighbors but you had a power that could only be used if you were both alive (is this correct?) but like I said, unless Inte was a vig kill and mafia didn't kill for some reason, a Inte kill makes no sense as he was far from a town read and had shit reads. It does make sense if you wanted to prevent the power to be used.

[Apple Jack]

@ Matt - this is what i see with regards to your 'case" on shotty

Spoiler:

Confusion with game mechanics like this is a scumtell. See: DGB in Capcom Crossover

unfortunately I would need more than 1 example, because personally I feel it's more of an intelligence tell and not a confirmation of town or scum.

I've never seen shotgun as scum before, but this is nothing like his town play up to page 4

i find this hard to believe, considering shotty is a known VI, but I'll bite. Can you provide links to games where you played with him and he was town?

post 336 - this is where you discuss the proper way to claim miller. While I will give you that if he was seriously claiming miller he should have been more serious about it, but that alone isn't enough imo.

I don't want you in lylo. I don't like your posts. So I want you gone now. If you are a miller it sucks for you.

this just looks like a policy lynch

side note - I think now I know why Inte was killed, if he was telling the truth..

ok back to Matt

Spoiler:

And I can easily see dr pulling this. This is nothing like his town play.

I admit this is very largely gut and one of my strongest reasons went down the shitter, but do you really think he is coming off town looking at his town, his claim, and his soft push on me for bullshit reasoning?

gut and meta.... this isn't a case, this is a personal agenda.

Because the ":/" just pisses me off, it's not dr-town-esque at all. It's almost like he knows it's bullshit, I don't believe dr would claim a shitty role with a "well shucks" emoticon. I've finished two games with him where I was scum and he was town, so I was able to observe his townplay very closely.

Now I'm just arguing intuitive points though, so it's pretty pointless

how can anyone argue with this? :/

post 422 actually shows someone who is generally angry because someone is pushing a BS case on them. I have done this myself so for now I don't think shotty is scum. Nothing you have provided so far is enough evidence and certainly isn't a good enough reason. I am not lynching VIs just because they are VIs.

post 429 - you accuse him of a blatant lie but i don't see it.

post 431 - you say DR's play is not bothering you but now it's because he lied.... seems p.sure you were suspecting him because of his play early on so this post seems to contradict that.

post 434 - I don't read that as he knows you are town :shrug:

and the remainder of your posts are basically the same non-sensical bullshit.

Based on YOUR case on Shotty, i am not convinced he is scum.

later today i will read his ISO and determine my own opinion of him, but your case is weaksauce.

[Apple Jack]

My apologies. In all honesty, If I say someone feels off, 9 times out of 10 it's gut. In this case, it's gut with an added dose off strangely worded replies.

For example??

D3f3nd3r's ISO looks pretty bad. He is staying out of all discussions, and just popping in small bits of info that is not very useful here and there. He seemed to want to get on Derpy, Shotgun wagon by asking others for reasons to get on them.

ActionDan's ISO is equal in numbers and he looks pretty detached too.

Derpy is Town I think because her argument with Inte looks Town on Town.

Sorry for being absent. Although I must say, there hasn't been much.

shotty i am curious, it looks like this post you are suspicous of Defender and Dan, but I don't think I see you ever do any sort of pushing on either of them. I mean you do later vote defender, but I don't really any attempt to get them to contribute.

why not?

[Apple Jack]

Just re-read Inte's ISO again and it looks like 2 of the people that Inte suspected as scum just so happens to be 2 of the people I suspected.

Vote1: havingfitz

Vote2: Defender

[chesskid3]

nopointinactingup replaces Code_X

[havingfitz]

Post v/la catchup in progress. Will post asap. Still house moving and phone posting.

[Messiah]

Time to

have an incredibly productive weekday morning.

play mafia.

---

So, let's cover our bases here:

Point A: I'm completely convinced D3f3nd3r is scum, and you should be too. I've been wrong before, of course, but I've never been this sure before either.
Point B: At least two scum were on Phil's wagon.
Point C: ActionDan was on the Phil wagon early and the D3f3nd3r wagon late.
Sidebar: Reading Dan's ISO.. he hasn't posted in eight days? What? That was a long ass night phase.
Point D: Dan's vote on D3f3nd3r is the scummiest thing this side of, well, D3f3nd3r. He goes from defending him here and here(these posts are four days apart, mind you) to stating he would vote him here with absolutely no reason given. His reasoning in this post is madness if you take his prior posts into account, which is kind of difficult since you're bound to forget he exists between them.
Point E: Dan's posts are useless(and wrong, usually). See: ISO#1, asking Derpy a question and never following up. Twenty posts later(ISO#2, for those playing along at home) his most substantial contribution is telling Code_X what a death miller is. Eighty posts later(ISO#3) he unvotes Code_X for some reason and says he'll be reading. ISO#4 he still doesn't like Code_X but doesn't bother putting a vote on him even though he has one open. Also see ISO#5, ISO#7, ISO#8, ISO#9 and ISO#10 for more uselessness. Keep reading and you'll find more. You might also realize these make up the vast majority of his posts, and the ones that don't appear entirely useless on the surface are also pretty useless as well.

vote1: ActionDan

Shape up or ship out.

---

Switching gears a little bit, I find Code_X's replacement request overnight to be incredibly bizarre. He's made tons and tons of posts today and yesterday in a different game, so we can probably assume it wasn't something preventing him from posting. For me, though he mostly posted frequently, he was drowned out throughout the game by all the miller garbage and the incredible level of scummery coming from a ton of the players(this also applies to, say, whispersilk). While I didn't find any of his play particularly scummy or towny, I think all of that noise had a huge effect on my having a null read on him. Just some food for thought.