Newbie 1289 - Game Over!

[vendetta21]

I just wrote something to post in the thread, as I've been waiting a time for this to begin. Also, I didn't think that lynching on the first day would yield anything good, mostly because we don't have any information yet, and it's a wider possibility to lynch a good guy instead of a bad guy.

By the way, is there any chance to change a vote during the day? Just to be sure (I think it does, but I'm not really sure. Looked up around but didn't find anything.)

Okay, so I follow the logic here. We have 21 days to get somewhere and we do this by applying pressure to people and asking them to explain their reasoning for their decisions. Through a process of pendulum swings in votes and forcing people to explain small things they do, we get a better sense of the headspace these people are playing in. At worst if everyone votes randomly we have a 25%ish chance to hit scum. But we don't vote randomly, and neither do scum.

If we go through this voting stage for a bit we can start to see how other people are thinking and get a sense of their motivations.

In my opinion, voting no lynch in Day 1 would put you under the spotlight as doing that really isn't beneficial to the town. Thus, it's a scummy move. Vendetta acknowledges that and voted for you. I just want to chulk it up as a point brought up by a new player and nothing more. I think Vendetta is jumping the gun a bit.

You seem to insinuate that Vendettas vote wasn't random. Is this solely based on post 11?

It wasn't random. And there is no jumping the gun when we have 3 weeks to move along -- we do RVS (Random Voting Stage) to try to find something and run with it.

That being said, his response to me doesn't strike me as that of scum. He is a new player: given the queue time and his join date we can be reasonably certain that his new-playerness is genuine. What I find suspect is how he decided to try to cast a vote and then comes back saying he is unsure if we are allowed change votes. This in itself doesn't strike me as scummy, as he had casted a vote, garnered suspicion, and reviewed his decision. What strikes me as scummy is how he decided to post publicly about how he wanted to get this thing started and then made two moves that do nothing towards that end.

But it doesn't strike me as that scummy and given the context I'm inclined to think he is town for now. So I'm pulling back for now UNVOTE: PaperSpirit

[BT]

UNVOTE: Deltabacon
VOTE: vendetta21

Low progress : words ratio. Getting some vibes here.

Airick10 also gets a thumb of disapproval for not going anywhere with "he's jumping the gun". Does this mean something, or are we back at square 1?

[Tierce]

This first post is mostly stolen from Thor665. It includes an intro about my role in the game, duties and initial game stage. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here); if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

Greetings,

I am Tierce and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is, first and foremost, that I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on MafiaScum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC.
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I

highly

recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of, as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory and glossary. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice:

1. Don't self vote. (There are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is.)
   
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
   
3. It's a game--have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with, generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do than a town player).


A final note about me, not directly related to the game: English is not my first language. I should be able to understand you just fine, but I want to write better. I would welcome notes/corrections on my spelling and grammar, either as they occur or at the end of the game. In the same manner, please try to be understanding if I ask you to clarify a sentence for me.

To confirm what RedRabbit said, yes, you can change your vote throughout the course of the Day as many times as you want, PaperSpirit. Until a majority is reached, votes can be shifted around.

The town needs to lynch. If we no lynch, we go into night with virtually no information, since we don't have any flips. The lynch is the main instrument of the town in rooting out scum, and it's the kill that is controlled mostly by the town--giving it up because we don't have information at the very start is a bad idea. Players' posts can be mined or information and studied for whether they are more likely to come from scum or town, and that is how town should apply their votes.

In short: don't trust PRs to find out the scum for you without any input, either here or in larger games. Lynching a townie on D1 is better for the town than no lynching, because if nothing else, it already reduces the pool of scum suspects by one and we have better odds tomorrow. Make sense?


Airick has the right idea, but I prefer this one:

VOTE: Sylvant


As a final note for now--one of the things that might come up during the game is ISO(lation). Reading a player (or players) in ISO means using the bottom-most dropdown menu under the Quick Reply box, where it says "Display posts by user:". If you select a certain user who has posted in this thread (up to three users, click the "[ + ]" sign for adding user2 and user3) and click Go, the thread is filtered down to the posts by that user(s). It's useful for looking at certain interactions without scrolling through the rest of the thread.

I have a concert tonight, will probably only be back tomorrow. Remember, if you have questions about theory, feel free to ask them in-thread and I will do my best to answer them. If you have questions pertaining to your role, it's best to ask the mod via PM.

[buldermar]

In my opinion, voting no lynch in Day 1 would put you under the spotlight as doing that really isn't beneficial to the town. Thus, it's a scummy move. Vendetta acknowledges that and voted for you. I just want to chulk it up as a point brought up by a new player and nothing more. I think Vendetta is jumping the gun a bit.

You seem to insinuate that Vendettas vote wasn't random. Is this solely based on post 11?

It wasn't random. And there is no jumping the gun when we have 3 weeks to move along -- we do RVS (Random Voting Stage) to try to find something and run with it.

This is an oxymoron (a non-random RVS).

[Sylvant]

Hey, sorry all but I'm going to have to replace out. Some personal and professional stuff came up that is going to occupy a great deal of time. Best of luck with the game.

@Mod I need to be replaced.

[buldermar]

A final note about me, not directly related to the game: English is not my first language. I should be able to understand you just fine, but I want to write better. I would welcome notes/corrections on my spelling and grammar, either as they occur or at the end of the game. In the same manner, please try to be understanding if I ask you to clarify a sentence for me.

This goes for me as well.

Lynching a townie on D1 is better for the town than no lynching, because if nothing else, it already reduces the pool of scum suspects by one and we have better odds tomorrow. Make sense?

This is incorrect. Lynching a person at random on D1 is better for the town than no lynching, but lynching a confirmed town is worse than no lynching. If this was correct, there would also be a time for self-voting - namely a scenario where you're on L1 with limited time left of the day. I know that I'm putting my head on the block by correcting the IC, but I'm certain about this and therefore willing to put my credibility on the line. I'd also like to underline that I think this is simply a misconception as opposed to Tierce being intentionally misleading.

I have a concert tonight, will probably only be back tomorrow.

Enjoy the concert =)

[BT]

A confirmed town should never be the only possible lynch anyway. Or a possible lynch at all.

[buldermar]

A confirmed town should never be the only possible lynch anyway. Or a possible lynch at all.

Logically, the game would be over if a confirmed town was the only possible lynch. Strictly speaking, a confirmed town

is

possible insofar you're one or both of a) a cop and b) talking about yourself. The former is because you

can

confirm town roles, in which case you could potentially lynch a confirmed town on L1. The latter is because you always know your own alignment, in which case you could potentially lynch yourself on L1 if you're town.

[Tierce]

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

[izakthegoomba]

Now seeking a replacement for Sylvant.

Votecount 1.01

PaperSpirit (1) - Sylvant
BT (1) - Deltabacon
Airick10 (1) - RedRabbit
vendetta21 (1) - BT
Sylvant (1) - Tierce
Deltabacon (0) -

none

RedRabbit (0) -

none

buldermar (0) -

none

Tierce (0) -

none

No Lynch (1) - PaperSpirit

Not voting (3) - buldermar, Airick10, vendetta21

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline: (expired on 2012-10-18 11:36:09)

[izakthegoomba]

ovyo replaces Sylvant.

[ovyo]

Does this mean that Tierce's vote for Sylvant is for me?

[izakthegoomba]

Yes, it does. All votes by or on your slot will remain unless they are changed.

[buldermar]

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

Your statement entails self-voting being optimal under certain circumstances. Since this is wrong for this setup, me neglecting pointing it out would lead to a net utility loss from the town perspective relative to if I do point it out. I sincerely disagree that pointing something out that would lead to a decreasement in the odds of town winning if omitted qualifies as corner case theory talk.

As for the lack of vote, that's a simple one: I'm convinced that I can obtain more information during this day and thus make a more qualified estimate of peoples alignment before voting. The difference between voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched

and

not voting person A before voting person B who gets lynched is negligible when voting person A is unreasoned (as is the case with random votes). In other words, I simply prefer to postpone voting until I have preferences regarding who to lynch (i.e. until I have some information to base my vote on).

You might object that the random votes themselves is a valid method to obtain such information, and that's in my opinion reasonable. However, I think that discussion without the random votes is an equally valid and viable method.

FWIW I'd like to be proven wrong as the general consensus seems to be that RVS is a necessity.

[BT]

It's not, but how do you think the game is going to start moving *without* random or otherwise premature votes? If everyone played like you suggested, we wouldn't have a game.

I don't think it takes 24 hours to respond to my #26. I'm not liking this lazy start.

[Tierce]

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and my ovyo is not random. However, you are implying that you have no viable reads yet. I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about extreme corner cases. I don't support a cop accepting the lynch of his confirmed innocents, for example, even to avoid a no-lynch. Self-hammering minutes before the deadline MAY be acceptable, but again, this is a very corner case and better approached if the situation ever rises up. It was quite obvious that I was not talking about those corner cases, and your focus on it instead of actual events in this game is off.

I have no issues with being corrected, and the fact that I have my own opinions in theory does not make them Absolute Truth, but your correction is reading as an avoidance of matters that actually have to do with the game to focus on a theory discussion that does not relate to the current events. That is scummy.

[BT]

It wouldn't be the first time I saw newbies rambling about theory in lack of anything better to do. It's null. If you do think it's scummy, though, what did you find worse in Sylvant's 3 posts?

[ovyo]

TY Izakthegoomba.

Eh, can't prove my innocence at this point. This is only the second game I've entered so I'm still learning the ropes.
In the spirit of randomness...

VOTE: BT because I don't like your avi *shrug*

[Tierce]

Worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown.

ovyo, who is scum?

[ovyo]

I'm really not sure, but DeltaBacon and Vendetta sound a little off to me

[Tierce]

Then why are you voting someone you do not have a scumread on?

[Deltabacon]

A random vote, then a vague painting of off-ness between me and Vendetta? Why random vote when you have clearly negative vibes from myself and Vendetta, instead of voting them and trying to resolve the off-ness or develop it?

NINJA'D See above.

[ovyo]

I don't have a scumread on anyone yet. My BT vote was completely random and my suspicions aren't really valid either. Bacon, I suspect you because of your first post but I guess you could've been joking...I doubt scum would be so obvious. Vendetta, I can't put my finger on it, but something is just off to me.

[BT]

Sounds like a good reason to press them for reactions.

[ovyo]

True, but I'm a novice and more of an observer. I'm not too sure of myself right now so I think it's best I sit back until I get a better grasp of things.

UNVOTE: BT