[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Shamrock]

The intended point would be to use the conversation in the QT to supplement your read on the other person. I mean, by that logic, aren't all neighborhoods pointless?

[Xalxe]

I mean, by that logic, aren't all neighborhoods pointless?

Yes.

/personalopinion

[CF Riot]

I wouldn't know where to look for this if it's been asked before but would the balance of Bird 7P be greatly swayed by giving scum daytalk?

[Tierce]

Bird 7P is so pretty already. *_* Don't change a winning team.

From my recent experience modding it: yes, it would affect it quite strongly. Scum already have access to a D2 LyLo if there is a successful mislynch/kill pair on the first Day/Night. They don't need extra bonuses on how to deal with Dayplay/when to coordinate a quickhammer.

[CF Riot]

I ask for the sake of running a speed game with daytime submission for all night actions and minimal time spent in night phase. Would you consider 24 hours reasonable for a night phase if the game is advertised this way? What about daytalk for the first X hours of each day? What's a good number for X? Theoretically pregame and N1 should be the only time both members are alive to talk anyways right?

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

<snip>

Just let the scum give out town inventions in addition to their own inventions and that isn't a problem.

It's a neat idea, I'd play some version of it.

Hmm, editing the original setup a little bit and taking the above advise in. Editing from last time is in dark magenta (except the orange, that's also an addition)

Mad Inventors Mafia

Setup:

9p

(1)

3xshot Pro-scum Mafia Inventor

+

Randomly either 3xshot Investigative Inventors or 3xshot Protective/Blocking Inventors

(1)

3xshot Anti-town Mafia Inventor

+

Randomly either 3xshot Investigative Inventors or 3xshot Protective/Blocking Inventors

(0-7)

3xshot Investigative Inventors

(7-0)

3xshot Protective/Blocking Inventors

Pro-scum Inventor

- 1xshot Strongman, 1xNinja, 1xshot Framer

Anti-town Inventor

*- 1xshot Miller-power (for one night)**, 1xshot Voteless-power (for a day), 1xshot Beloved Princess-power (for a day)

Investigative Inventors

- 1xshot Cop, 1xshot Tracker, 1xshot Voyeur

Protective/Blocking Inventors

- 1xshot Doctor, 1xshot Roleblocker, 1xshot Jailkeeper

*Gives someone that negative ability. Ex, makes someone a miller for a night, etc
**Person is not told they have become a miller.

Addition:

Game is

Night 0

start. Inventions are given during the night, they are received (told to the player who got it [no including becomign a miller]) at the beginning of the day, and, if applicable to the ability, may be used during the coming night.

Addition:

Changed town PRs from 3-4/4-3 to 0-7/7-0. Think it balances game more and makes it less likely to break.

Addition:

Two randomly town roles (including the scum town roles [the ones in addition to their scum ones]) will be False Inventors. This means their inventions do nothing, but they do not know this.

QUESTION: If you approve of this, do you think that people who get sent something by the false inventors actually receive the thing but does nothing when they use it (ex, cop gets no result, doc doesn't actually protect) or they shouldn't receive the ability in the first place (So false inventor's inventions basically never reach the person)?

Players

may

both give an ability to someone and use an ability if they have been given one.
Mafia

may

use all a

scum PR ability, a "town" PR ability

, a kill, and a given invention of a particular night.
Upon flip, players flip as Pro-scum, Anti-town, Investigative, or Protective/Blocking Inventors. It is not told upon the flip what that player was given or the abilities (s)he had upon death.

Scum also do not flip what "town" PR they have.

Players

may not

invent (give to another player) more than one of a particular ability. So their 3 shots, if they choose to use all three, must all be different.

EDIT: To answer these:

Is there a day delay between giving and receiving powers? Like, N1 player A gives player B an ability, N2 player B uses that ability? Do the abilities expire after a certain number of nights? If a player is given abilities by multiple people can that player use more than one in a given night?

Yes to first two sentences. Umm, not sure about third sentence. Should they? Maybe they should only be available the first night they are can be used? Ex inventor sends out invention on Night1. Maybe be used only on night 2, etc. Or that's bad? And I'm leaning no to the last question.

[greygnarl]

In post 5349, CF Riot wrote:
Is there a day delay between giving and receiving powers? Like, N1 player A gives player B an ability, N2 player B uses that ability? Do the abilities expire after a certain number of nights? If a player is given abilities by multiple people can that player use more than one in a given night?

Yes to first two sentences. Umm, not sure about third sentence. Should they? Maybe they should only be available the first night they are can be used? Ex inventor sends out invention on Night1. Maybe be used only on night 2, etc. Or that's bad? And I'm leaning no to the last question.

I think he might be confused about whether they are one-shot powers or not.

[CF Riot]

What I mean is, If A, B and C all choose to give an invention to X on night 0, then on N1 does X have to choose 1 of those 3 inventions to use, can he use all 3, or does he have the option to use 1 per night until he's used them all? If you can only use 1 power per night and they expire then optimal strategy for town is to mass claim their targets each day so that no inventions are wasted.

What's causing the most problems is you have 21 shots worth of town power for a 3 night micro game. Even if 2 town get the duds, that's 15 shots. You could potentially no lynch D1 and come back D2 with 8 players and 5 different cop results. Sure scum can fake some results but that's still pretty nuts and there'd still be shots left over. I suggest taking the inventors down to 1 shot, and make all the investigative inventions randomly do 1 of cop/tracker/watcher and the protective randomly 1 of doc/block/jail. If you give people a choice they'll always pick cop or JK, because those are easily the strongest option. Or leave inventors at 3 shot but have way less of them.

Also the pro-scum inventor power seems kind of redundant in a 2 scum game because he'll always target his partner, unless he's allowed to target himself. You could instead do a 3 shot rigger who makes investigative inventions give the wrong result and a 3 shot <clever flavor related name guy> who blocks the other inventions. Sorry it's late and this is a really wonky setup and it's hurting my brain. Basically this is way too many special roles for a micro. Mafia games weren't meant for every player to have a power role. Needs more vanilla.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Hmm, this might be going to the lands of more wonky, but how about a setup where each player, including mafia, becomes either a 1shot cop, 1shot tracker, 1shot voyeur, 1shot doctor, 1 shot roleblocker, or 1 shot jailkeeper inventor. + Mafia get a 1shot Miller maker and a 1shot Ninja.

So,

setup

:

Moderator randomly chooses 9 numbers from 1-6, repeating permitted (obv). Then each number is turned to a letter that signifies the type of inventor.

1. C (Cop inventor)
2. T (Tracker inventor)
3. V (Voyeur inventor)
4. D (Doctor inventor)
5. R (Roleblocker inventor)
6. J (Jailkeeper inventor)

So every player in the game becomes a specific

1-shot

specific inventor from one of the possibilities. And the mafia are also given one a 1shot Framer and 1shot Ninja.

So,

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

{1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

1shot Ninja + {1 shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

(1)

1shot Framer + {1shot Cop/Tracker/Voyeur/Doctor/Roleblocker/Jailkeeper Inventor}

[greygnarl]

I just had an idea for a game wher ethere is a Fruit Vendor that gives fruit and the Mafia has to target whoever he gives the fruit to in order to get a NK. Two Mafia who can target separately and then 1 Fruit Vendor, One Backup Fruit Vendor and 3 or 4 VTs.

[quadz08]

Fruit Vendor always targets someone he thinks is scummy; mafia gets stuck being unable to NK the good players (and probably unable to NK anyone, in practice). You'd have to balance it pretty hard in favor of mafia.

[Klick]

Triplets

(based somewhat on Kise's Capcom Crossover Mafia)
3 Mafia Goons
6 Vanilla Townies
Nightless; Mafia have Daytalk
No no-lynching
Players are placed into groups of three, with two Vanilla Townies and one Mafia Goon in each group. Those players can talk to each other at any time in the game in a QT. The groups will be numbered (1, 2, 3). On Day One, the lynch will be between the players in Group 1, and will cycle each Day.
Standard win conditions apply.


I have no idea how balanced this is, and the wording is a little off, IMO.

[Empking]

Triplets

(based somewhat on Kise's Capcom Crossover Mafia)
3 Mafia Goons
6 Vanilla Townies
Nightless; Mafia have Daytalk
No no-lynching
Players are placed into groups of three, with two Vanilla Townies and one Mafia Goon in each group. Those players can talk to each other at any time in the game in a QT. The groups will be numbered (1, 2, 3). On Day One, the lynch will be between the players in Group 1, and will cycle each Day.
Standard win conditions apply.


I have no idea how balanced this is, and the wording is a little off, IMO.

One thing about that is the scum in group 1 can't win if the other two scum are lynched.

[Klick]

Hmm. That's a good point, but doesn't that just kinda make it like White Flag?

[Empking]

Hmm. That's a good point, but doesn't that just kinda make it like White Flag?

If you don't force them through all the conf-toqwn lynches, it does.

[Empking]

If you just say that once a neighbourhood has been purged from scum those players no longer need to be killed, and that scum win once they have half of the votes or once they're the only living player in their group, then you've got a streamlined, workable, balanced-enough game.

[Klick]

I don't want two confirmed townies in one group alive and deathproof. Therefore, it's pretty much just choosing who is best alive.

Maybe, if Mafia in a group gets lynched first, the Mafia get to kill from that group during its turn.

PEdit: Are you saying that scum can have two ways of winning; they can either win as a team by gaining majority or win by themselves by staying alive? I don't like that too much because when scum are screwed, they can just ask the town to let them live to the end, then lynch their buddy.

[Empking]

I don't want two confirmed townies in one group alive and deathproof. Therefore, it's pretty much just choosing who is best alive.

Maybe, if Mafia in a group gets lynched first, the Mafia get to kill from that group during its turn.

PEdit: Are you saying that scum can have two ways of winning; they can either win as a team by gaining majority or win by themselves by staying alive? I don't like that too much because when scum are screwed, they can just ask the town to let them live to the end, then lynch their buddy.

No I meant the entire team won by having a member be the last in his group.

[Klick]

Hmm. Maybe.

Does anyone know balance stats on this for having one scum be the last alive vs. having two?

[greygnarl]

What I meant for Fruit Vendor is that if the Mafia target the same people as the Fruit Vendor they get a kill. I guess they would submit a kill and targets to make it run smoothly. THe kill just wouldn't always go through.

[Empking]

What I meant for Fruit Vendor is that if the Mafia target the same people as the Fruit Vendor they get a kill. I guess they would submit a kill and targets to make it run smoothly. THe kill just wouldn't always go through.

I think optimum play for FV might be to pick randomly.

[CF Riot]

players get 3 votes each per day
no unvoting
players may place multiple votes on a single player
no no-lynching

So the player with the most votes at deadline, or any player who has enough votes that they would not be outvoted even if all remaining votes were placed on the second place wagon is lynched. Fun? Breakable somehow? I had also considered making this a double day game, so that the players who lead or control the first lynch have less sway towards the second on a given day.

[Elscouta]

No unvoting or limited unvoting games are generally pointless. Town will organize to only FoS people until a fake-hammer has been reached, then lynch this player.

Any town not organized enough to do this will self-destruct anyway.

---

The double day part where people that had a say on the first lynch have less of a say on the second one is interesting though. You might want to read "Judge, Jury, Executionner" that had a similar mecanism.

[LlamaFluff]

Daytalk + no NKs on scum + choose secretary at start would me my preference for that setup, and I'd personally think it's reasonably balanced 10:3 and scumsided 8:3. I might be wrong, though; it's often hard to know about balance until a setup is run, especially when it introduces a new mechanic.

So you don't like the core swap idea? We could try it with or without it and see how things work out.

10 VTs still seems balanced I think? What are the win rates like for white flag? I'd guess that this would be fairly similar.

I just saw this in the queue.

I dont think its balanced. Town doesnt get any help against clean sweep (20% of games) to start. Even othewise its doesnt help much, there is a 51% chance of them being alive at a point two scum would win still, although it drops to 34% at only them. Given that its 100% at all scum win... im just not sure this is balanced and I would not want to ever be town in this setup, wouldnt want to be scum either but I would be really upset being town, lesser of two evils.

Getting something like 62% chance scum wins this playing around.

21% @ no losses
27% @ one loss
14% @ two losses

[Shamrock]

This is more a mechanic/role than a setup but if I were going to run this I'd make this part of the setup public knowledge:

Cult v2.0
13 players
1 Cult Leader
1 Cult Acolyte
11 pro-town roles (VTs & various PRs)

The Cult Leader recruits on odd nights only. On Day 1 only, if the Cult Leader is lynched, the Acolyte gains an even night recruitment power. The cult wins when it has a majority. Add various town PRs to taste/balance.

The limited recruitment keeps the cult's power from spiraling out of control too quickly (the only way it reaches 4 members is if the town mislynches 3 days in a row). On the other hand, the fact that it starts with two members and that it has a fall-back plan in case the leader is lynched D1 means that D1 is significantly less retarded than it otherwise would be in a game where cult is the only scum faction.

Thoughts?