Open 459: There is a New Scum in Town. Game Over Town Wins!

[Majiffy]

Let's say I believe trucks are the ideal vehicle. And let's say I believe Toyota makes the best vehicles. Do I believe Toyota trucks are the penultimate automatic locomotive tool? No, it does not follow. There is no disconnect in having two independent scum reads and not associating them together; they are both considered scum reads on separate qualia, and in fact a flip on one may negate the scum read on another through associative tells.

[buldermar]

Buldermar's KMD vote looks suspicious since he never mentioned KMD at all before that vote and he doesn't provide any reasoning for it. He said he's happy with his vote but still doesn't say why. I'll have to read everyone else before I decide if he's scum or not.

I think Majiffy is town - mostly based on day 1. I looked into his vote and reasoning and agreed with most of it, so I'm essentially sheeping his reasons. And I like where my vote is because I do not think anything has changed significantly.

[buldermar]

If it comes down to LS or Majiffy, I will be voting LS.

[Majiffy]

That's funny, I will be too.

We should get coffee sometime.

[Lastsurvivor]

Let's say I believe trucks are the ideal vehicle. And let's say I believe Toyota makes the best vehicles. Do I believe Toyota trucks are the penultimate automatic locomotive tool? No, it does not follow. There is no disconnect in having two independent scum reads and not associating them together; they are both considered scum reads on separate qualia, and in fact a flip on one may negate the scum read on another through associative tells.

Normally at this point I would say this is a difference in playstyles but I really don't think so.

I'll just use myself as an example.

I think you and Nacho are scum. While I acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong about one or both of you, I'm not going to make the assertion that "If Majiffy flips scum then <player that's not Nacho> is scum based on <associative tell>." Why? Because there's much more evidence for Nacho being scum than any player that's flimsily connected to you based on some association tell.

That's why I don't understand how you were considering voting Nacho after my flip even though you already had a scum read on Maenara. You didn't think Nacho was scum before hand. So why did the possibility jump into your mind?

[Majiffy]

Associative tells are very much not flimsy and you'd be a fool for not strongly considering them.

That's probably why you don't understand anything.

[Lastsurvivor]

Associative tells CAN be very much not flimsy. Just like every other tell.

E.g., when you have someone who replaces in and defends a player but then does a complete 180 of their read on them with little to no rationale provided.

^ This is about Nacho if that wasn't clear.

However, the associative tell that "LS made a case on Nacho and could possibly be bussing him" is flimsy because it all boils down to WIFOM. Could LS be bussing? Could LS just be pushing a lynch on a townie? Could LS actually be town and actually scum hunting?

Well, I mean, that last thought hasn't crossed your mind despite it's plausibility and overall correctness.

That tell is flimsy because there's no indication that the "bussing" scenario is more likely than any of the other scenarios I mentioned.

[Majiffy]

E.g., when you have someone who replaces in and defends a player but then does a complete 180 of their read on them with little to no rationale provided.

^ This is about Nacho if that wasn't clear.

Funny, I thought you were talking about yourself in regards to flip-flopping on a town read on me.

However, the associative tell that "LS made a case on Nacho and could possibly be bussing him" is flimsy because it all boils down to WIFOM. Could LS be bussing? Could LS just be pushing a lynch on a townie? Could LS actually be town and actually scum hunting?

Your third question shows ignorance of the basic tenet of associative tells; you need a scum flip first. You don't see me voting Nacho and saying "LOL HE'S SCUM CUZ LS IS BUSSING HIM". That would be idiocy. I am voting my scum read first and foremost. If that scum read flips scum, and has associative tells, I will pursue them.

That tell is flimsy because there's no indication that the "bussing" scenario is more likely than any of the other scenarios I mentioned.

Only because you look at it without the light of confirmed flips.

[penguin_alien]

Whaaaaa
Where did I say I had a town read on Fe. I didn't. I never said Fe considering replacing out was a strong town tell. O.o

I was talking about this:

While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all. I don't understand the reactions to it. Uct, Fizz, The Director, please explain (also the chances of at least one of you being scum is quite high due to that chain of reactions, and I don't think it's uct).

and in rereading it, I was mistaken in that you didn't say it was a town tell; you just didn't think supported him being scummy. Not sure I see where you were coming from, as it is my understanding that scum sometimes replace out when under pressure, but that's not a very relevant argument post-Fe flip, so. I shouldn't post on my way out the door, apparently; sorry about misreading that.

Instead of focusing on the outrage of Majiffy having a scum read on both you and someone else, I'd rather hear more about why he's wrong to have a scum read on you at all. Your circling around the theory of scum reads is making you look scummier to me than anything Majiffy and others have actually pointed out.

[Lastsurvivor]

Funny, I thought you were talking about yourself in regards to flip-flopping on a town read on me.

You were my weakest town read. Don't flatter yourself.

Your third question shows ignorance of the basic tenet of associative tells; you need a scum flip first. You don't see me voting Nacho and saying "LOL HE'S SCUM CUZ LS IS BUSSING HIM". That would be idiocy. I am voting my scum read first and foremost. If that scum read flips scum, and has associative tells, I will pursue them.

Oh, I know that you're not voting Nacho and you can't push associative tells without a scum flip.
I mentioned the last question because you were the one who brought up an associative tell without a scum flip. So I'm not sure you should be the one calling me ignorant. <_<

Only because you look at it without the light of confirmed flips.

You're the one who brought up the association without a flip...

Anyway, let's assume that I flip scum (which I won't but that point will meet deaf ears). There are still two possible scenarios for my interaction with Nacho:

1) I am pushing a ML on Nacho.
2) I am bussing Nacho.

And there's no way to tell from my post which one is which. So you're point is still flimsy and I still have no idea why you brought up an associative tell when

1) You're insisting that associative tells are useless without a flip
2) It was a very weak tell on a secondary scum read.

--------------------

Peng, his rationale for me being scum is associative tells which are just as weak as the one he tried to push on Nacho. He called the posts about Fe I refered to here "gold mines of bussing." While the posts there could be bussing, that's only true because they are interactions with a player who is scum. There's nothing there that says "Oh, LS is definitely bussing and not a townie interacting with a scum player." Maj has not explained why I'm definitely bussing other than saying "Dude associative tells are totally legit scum hunting 101 dude."

Basically, I think a case shouldn't be based entirely on associative tells unless there's a definite disconnect in the person who's allegedly bussing's thought process. Weak associative tells like that should only be supplements, not the main point.

[Majiffy]

Funny, I thought you were talking about yourself in regards to flip-flopping on a town read on me.

You were my weakest town read. Don't flatter yourself.

Still, you took a town read and bypassed four scum reads to vote me. Four. With what to support it? Nothing.

Oh, I know that you're not voting Nacho and you can't push associative tells without a scum flip.
I mentioned the last question because you were the one who brought up an associative tell without a scum flip. So I'm not sure you should be the one calling me ignorant. <_<

You mean where I said "if LS flips scum"? Yeah, you're right, that is totally sans-scum-flip.

1) I am pushing a ML on Nacho.
2) I am bussing Nacho.

And there's no way to tell from my post which one is which.

Yes there is. With confirmation of your flip we can accurately place ourselves into your shoes and decide if a Nacho-bus or a Nacho-mislynch-push was the more likely scenario given the current wagons, opinions, and discussions taking place.

So you're point is still flimsy and I still have no idea why you brought up an associative tell when

1) You're insisting that associative tells are useless without a flip
2) It was a very weak tell on a secondary scum read.

No, you're just backed up to a wall, and shouting "you're wrong" doesn't make me any more incorrect.

Basically, I think a case shouldn't be based entirely on associative tells unless there's a definite disconnect in the person who's allegedly bussing's thought process. Weak associative tells like that should only be supplements, not the main point.

Funny, you've had those a lot. And people have pointed them out.

So when ya gonna self-vote?

[Lastsurvivor]

Still, you took a town read and bypassed four scum reads to vote me. Four. With what to support it? Nothing.

We'll see what the town thinks about that tomorrow.
Hopefully they look at the fact that you're pushing me based on no original reasoning of your own and acting like these weak as fuck associative tells are totally legit.
OR they could just lynch you today. Or lynch Nacho today. But I'm slowly losing faith that that will happen. So instead I'm just going to constantly repeat that you and Nacho are scum so that when I flip town they remember who I thought was scum.

Funny, you've had those a lot. And people have pointed them out.

Uh, could you point out where?

So when ya gonna self-vote?

I'm not. I'd hate to ruin the wagon analysis.

Plus, the more you act like I'm obv scum when you have no good reasons whatsoever will just solidify your scuminess tomorrow when I flip town.

[Majiffy]

Funny story; I'm actually not pushing you, you're pushing me into pushing you by attacking me because I'm not voting you but voting Maenara. Had you not (and if you'd not have continued) to make a stink about the fact I have a scum read on you whilst voting for Maenara, we wouldn't be engaged in this very tedious discussion that is doing nothing but reflecting poorly on you.

[Lastsurvivor]

Maj, please spare me the BS that you're only voting me because I'm attacking you. That doesn't even make sense. I never told you to vote me.

[Majiffy]

In essence, you did.

Anyway I'm mostly voting you because the chances of your lynch going through over Maenara's is greater.

[Maenara]

Speaking of which, I haven't posted here in a while either. Blatant dodge, will post tomorrow when my brain is less full of annoyed and Charles Dickens.

If anyone would be so kind as to sum up the questions for me which I remember me not answering last time, I'd be less likely to miss them when I return.

[uctriton00]

Haven't read the past few pages but I'm asking why you're voting me

[Majiffy]

Rach can we get an updated vote-count?

[Nachomamma8]

Where in there do I indicate or imply that my Fe read is gone? In that post I don't suddenly come up with three scum reads that don't include Fe...

That was your #236 (ISO #2). The next time you bring up Fe, it's in #349 (ISO #10), and the post is "While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all." You called him the scummiest lurker, and then he completely disappears from your followup and you start ignoring him until people start giving him shit, and your first response is TO DEFEND HIM. How is that an occurrence of a scumread disappearing?

Nacho why did you go from defending Fe like your life depended on it to being ok with his lynch?

I thought Majiffy was pushing an idiotic mislynch like he always does, argued with him, kept looking him over, changed my mind.

And I've answered that second question like twice, but Buldermar's (Fizz's replacement) content was fine. At least I thought it was. After reading his ISO I said here that his posts were scummy.

okay why did you stop pushing his lynch today?
you weren't like "vote: Fizz, oh nevermind buldermar's doing fine"
you came in, voted majiffy, voted maenara
no buldermar/fizz mentions

[borkjerfkin]

Truth be told, I forgot about fizzamar too. I think Buld's been pretty transparent so far, and the goofy shit around post 700 seems like he's comfortable just saying whatever's on the top of his head. I don't know how to reconcile that with anything Fizz did other than to say he's not the lynch today.

[pirate mollie]

aaaaaand borky is town

[Maenara]

I like where this is going. UC, I'm sheeping KMD, and his vote was on you, as far as I could tell.

Speaking of which, as soon as the vote count comes in, I'm on LS. Feel free to count me as a pseudo-vote: Lastsurvivor until then. I like the points made so far a lot, and Lost has been handling his defense extremely poorly. Total mood whiplash, which makes him seem to be affecting it all. Methinks he's scum trying to go for heartfelt townie-posting.

Also, y'know, the whole just-going-with-sheeping-KMD thing.

[Maenara]

Oh. Right.

UNVOTE: uctriton00

[Lastsurvivor]

That was your #236 (ISO #2). The next time you bring up Fe, it's in #349 (ISO #10), and the post is "While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all." You called him the scummiest lurker, and then he completely disappears from your followup and you start ignoring him until people start giving him shit, and your first response is TO DEFEND HIM. How is that an occurrence of a scumread disappearing?

Look at Fe's ISO. He makes no real posts in between #236 and #317. Fe didn't post...therefore I had nothing to comment on. The read didn't disappear.

And I've already gone over this with Kmd...if I see something scummy I'm going to comment on it even if it means questioning the people that are on the same wagon as me. Take it or leave it.

I thought Majiffy was pushing an idiotic mislynch like he always does, argued with him, kept looking him over, changed my mind.

I have a very hard time buying that Majiffy convinced you to "change your mind" by just reiterating things that he already said. If you thought Maj was pushing an idiotic mislynch, wouldn't you have already read those points? If you thought Fe was town, like you repeatedly asserted, wouldn't you have read Fe's posts that Maj quoted? What caused you to think differently about them?

okay why did you stop pushing his lynch today?
you weren't like "vote: Fizz, oh nevermind buldermar's doing fine"
you came in, voted majiffy, voted maenara
no buldermar/fizz mentions

Keep in mind that when I voted Majiffy, Buldermar hadn't made his first post yet. And I wasn't going to vote Buldermar without him making a post.

But, sure, you are correct that I never mentioned that my buldermar read had changed until KMD brought it up.

[pirate mollie]

I don't think I like the last survivor lynch very much.