Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[SafetyDance]

Fuck it, why not.

Vote: Lurker

Catching up to your posts ff, will have to wait till tomorrow (real time...to clarify) though.

[pitoli]

So Lurker > Nero right now because he's even more null?

[pitoli]

Tbh I want the day to be over because my reads are getting more flip floppy, not more confirmed, the longer we go

[fferyllt]

gah. paranoia about bulder on the rise again. Just sat down and talked myself through the game's evolution, especially the evolution of our back-and-forth. The linchpin of his argument, the one post he says clearly came from a scum perspective was a post I made in the mindset of "what if he's town and he's lynched next after me because I've gone after him so hard? Or what if I'm lynched next if he flips town?" Either case, if I was wrong about him being scum, it looked like two mislynches would almost certainly happen. I unvoted when the momentum for his lynch seemed to be with me, and I knew it would seriously increase the chances of my own lynch happening today. In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

His arguments all seem come down to "scum-fferyllt might do anything, no matter how apparently anti-scum" when I argue that I wouldn't do something inherently anti-scum if I were scum. And the game we played where I was scum, I think that could be a reasonable takeaway, unfortunately. Everything scum tried went against us that game.

I'm not going after him again today. But I do not have a town read on him.

[buldermar]

fferyllt [3/5] -

Deltabacon, Nero

, buldermar

We both know that's not what I meant with more specific, girl.

The question is mostly a data point gathering device. I would be having certain thoughts about the composition of this bandwagon if I were part of it. It's also a touchpoint for self-gauging my current level of objectivity.

I wish I had some brilliant thought to share but I don't.

[buldermar]

Morning fery.

Of all the nicks/abbrevs of my account name I like this one best.

From now on I will refer to as

girl

.

That's mean.

Is it? I thought it was cute. You are a girl, aren't you?

Flirting is AtE

Orly...

[buldermar]

I unvoted when the momentum for his lynch seemed to be with me, and I knew it would seriously increase the chances of my own lynch happening today.

I disagree with this premise.

[fferyllt]

This was the post where I thought it sounded like he knew I was town. I can see myself posting something similar to someone. And I can't imagine not putting the phrase "If you are town" in there somewhere.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

And here's his counter-argument. It boils down to "statistically you're probably town". That seems weak.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

It's carefully worded, but there's an assumption in here that I'd be moved by the argument that self-voting would deprive town of information.

I think that's assumption that I'm town.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Even if you're by far the scummiest person in this game it would be extreme if I thought that you'd be more likely to flip scum than town statistically speaking. You know this, and you know I know this, but you conveniently ignore it because you also know that most people just think in absolute terms of "either scum or town", i.e., many people mistakingly think that because someone is more scummy than someone else on day one, that person is also more likely to be scum than town.

That being said, I'm pointing out that you're acting inherently anti-town which, should you turn out to be town, would be something in your game that you can improve on.

[buldermar]

In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

This is some elaborate fence-sitting that's advantageous for you as scum because it allows you to act pro-town by advocating your own lynch for the better of town while still in reality fighting it.

[buldermar]

His arguments all seem come down to "scum-fferyllt might do anything, no matter how apparently anti-scum" when I argue that I wouldn't do something inherently anti-scum if I were scum.

All I'm saying is that you can't use self-meta as an indicator of your alignment.

[fferyllt]

In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

This is some elaborate fence-sitting that's advantageous for you as scum because it allows you to act pro-town by advocating your own lynch for the better of town while still in reality fighting it.

I don't know what I'll do when push comes to shove. I have self-voted in the past when I thought my situation or my role indicated it was better for town if I were out of the game. In one case, I did that and it probably lost the game for town two days later, so I'm more cautious now than in the past. No matter how snake-bitten I may appear to be as town. As scum, I have tactically self-voted a few times with no intention of keeping my vote on myself. My self-voting prior to when it matters won't tell much about my alignment.

A majority-lynch mechanic is different from what I'm used to, and self-votes have a totally different impact from the type of games I've played elsewhere.

[buldermar]

This was the post where I thought it sounded like he knew I was town. I can see myself posting something similar to someone. And I can't imagine not putting the phrase "If you are town" in there somewhere.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

And here's his counter-argument. It boils down to "statistically you're probably town". That seems weak.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

It's carefully worded, but there's an assumption in here that I'd be moved by the argument that self-voting would deprive town of information.

I think that's assumption that I'm town.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Even if you're by far the scummiest person in this game it would be extreme if I thought that you'd be more likely to flip scum than town statistically speaking. You know this, and you know I know this, but you conveniently ignore it because you also know that most people just think in absolute terms of "either scum or town", i.e., many people mistakingly think that because someone is more scummy than someone else on day one, that person is also more likely to be scum than town.

That being said, I'm pointing out that you're acting inherently anti-town which, should you turn out to be town, would be something in your game that you can improve on.

No, it does not "boil down" to that. Read the last sentence.

I think discussing this with you is a waste of time at this point. You're obviously going to insist in your perspective if you're scum and if you're town you really should have read me clearly as town by now.

[Syryana]

Children, be nice.

[buldermar]

In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

This is some elaborate fence-sitting that's advantageous for you as scum because it allows you to act pro-town by advocating your own lynch for the better of town while still in reality fighting it.

I don't know what I'll do when push comes to shove. I have self-voted in the past when I thought my situation or my role indicated it was better for town if I were out of the game. In one case, I did that and it probably lost the game for town two days later, so I'm more cautious now than in the past. No matter how snake-bitten I may appear to be as town. As scum, I have tactically self-voted a few times with no intention of keeping my vote on myself. My self-voting prior to when it matters won't tell much about my alignment.

A majority-lynch mechanic is different from what I'm used to, and self-votes have a totally different impact from the type of games I've played elsewhere.

Okay, I'll ask you so that we get a clear answer. If you're getting to L-1 and there is no appropriate counter-wagon, and if both of orc and I agrees that you should be todays lynch, would you self-vote? Yes or no.

[fferyllt]

This was the post where I thought it sounded like he knew I was town. I can see myself posting something similar to someone. And I can't imagine not putting the phrase "If you are town" in there somewhere.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

And here's his counter-argument. It boils down to "statistically you're probably town". That seems weak.

If someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll self-vote after I have one last chance to interact with buldermar. If I'm wrong about him, I'll retract my scum read before I flip.

I don't often lecture you, but in this situation I'd say that self-voting is considerably anti-town as you effectively deprive town some information that could have been obtained from vote analysis.

I'm off to bed soon, but I'll respond to every question you may have as detailed as possible when I wake up.

It's carefully worded, but there's an assumption in here that I'd be moved by the argument that self-voting would deprive town of information.

I think that's assumption that I'm town.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Even if you're by far the scummiest person in this game it would be extreme if I thought that you'd be more likely to flip scum than town statistically speaking. You know this, and you know I know this, but you conveniently ignore it because you also know that most people just think in absolute terms of "either scum or town", i.e., many people mistakingly think that because someone is more scummy than someone else on day one, that person is also more likely to be scum than town.

That being said, I'm pointing out that you're acting inherently anti-town which, should you turn out to be town, would be something in your game that you can improve on.

No, it does not "boil down" to that. Read the last sentence.

I think discussing this with you is a waste of time at this point. You're obviously going to insist in your perspective if you're scum and if you're town you really should have read me clearly as town by now.

Yes, in your second post after I called you out on the implicit assumption in your first post, you said "should you turn out to be town".

I have to go back through this. It's at the root of my uncertainties about you. After I got past the WKing I still had this, along with your apparently not getting that a Kara Thrace safe claim should not have been wasted on a VT role claim. In one post, it looked like you were even arguing that I'd claimed a power role.

[fferyllt]

In fact, I unvoted expecting to be today's lynch though I am constitutionally unable to just accept that and not fight it even when I think my cardflip sooner rather than later would help town.

This is some elaborate fence-sitting that's advantageous for you as scum because it allows you to act pro-town by advocating your own lynch for the better of town while still in reality fighting it.

I don't know what I'll do when push comes to shove. I have self-voted in the past when I thought my situation or my role indicated it was better for town if I were out of the game. In one case, I did that and it probably lost the game for town two days later, so I'm more cautious now than in the past. No matter how snake-bitten I may appear to be as town. As scum, I have tactically self-voted a few times with no intention of keeping my vote on myself. My self-voting prior to when it matters won't tell much about my alignment.

A majority-lynch mechanic is different from what I'm used to, and self-votes have a totally different impact from the type of games I've played elsewhere.

Okay, I'll ask you so that we get a clear answer. If you're getting to L-1 and there is no appropriate counter-wagon, and if both of orc and I agrees that you should be todays lynch, would you self-vote? Yes or no.

Right now, your agreement would be irrelevant. If orcinus thinks I should self-hammer and I think I should self-hammer I absolutely will. If he doesn't and I think I should, I don't know what I'll do, yet.

[fferyllt]

I'm trying to search for other games where you've lectured someone about self-voting. I keep getting a gateway time-out. :/

[fferyllt]

No, it does not "boil down" to that. Read the last sentence.

I think discussing this with you is a waste of time at this point. You're obviously going to insist in your perspective if you're scum and if you're town you really should have read me clearly as town by now.

Why would I have dropped it in the first place if I were scum? You can try to handwave away that I got you to L-2 in a hurry, with at least one other player having indicated they were leaning scum on you. But, there is hard evidence of that in the game thread. It was a conscious decision on my part that would increase the likelihood of my lynch.

[fferyllt]

Fascinating - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4651393

There's a time for self-voting - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4366255

An analysis of a self-vote that was rescinded - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4290177

I was hoping to find a a game where buldermar emphaticly told someone else that self-voting is anti-town, and to see that he didn't make any sort of "If you are town" qualification. I didn't find that. His argument to me about not self-voting doesn't quite line up with the above posts, though.

[fferyllt]

Children, be nice.

I am being nice.

[fferyllt]

No, it does not "boil down" to that. Read the last sentence.

I think discussing this with you is a waste of time at this point. You're obviously going to insist in your perspective if you're scum and if you're town you really should have read me clearly as town by now.

Why would I have dropped it in the first place if I were scum? You can try to handwave away that I got you to L-2 in a hurry, with at least one other player having indicated they were leaning scum on you. But, there is hard evidence of that in the game thread. It was a conscious decision on my part that would increase the likelihood of my lynch.

Also, I could say exactly the same about you - that you're going to insist that your interpretations are correct if you are scum, and that you should at least have some doubts about your read if you are town.

This is really the first game we've ever played where we've engaged anywhere near this much. Maybe it just takes a good serious shitfest of a game to work things out. If so, I hope one game is enough. In one case it took almost a year's worth of games before one player and I got past the day 1 sledge phase.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Fuck it, why not.

Vote: Lurker

Catching up to your posts ff, will have to wait till tomorrow (real time...to clarify) though.

Hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Lurker]

No ORNICUS.

GET OFF.

I AM TOTlly not active lurking.

[Lurker]

Love the term drivenys.

[fferyllt]

What are you doing then?