Newbie 1382 (Game Over)

[rmpeacoc]

Please do expand on it. I'd like to see reasoning other than your gut... gut votes are extremely annoying.

[rmpeacoc]

the word' squirrely' is also annoying, because I find 50 different definitions from people. Say what you mean, not just a word that other people like to use.

Sorry for two posts I was just rereading and thought about that.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 2.2

lortaku (2)

: rmpeacoc, Mr. Flay

rmpeacoc (2)

: pitoli, jon_h61

Kattaze (1)

: notquitethere

jon_h61 (1)

: Kattaze

No Vote (4)

: JerryArr, lortaku, Xiao Long

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Tuesday, June 25 at 4:00 PM CDT, which is in (expired on 2013-06-25 16:00:00).

V/LA

jon_h61: June 14 - June 16

[pitoli]

Alright alright. More aboard this wagon

[rmpeacoc]

waste our ml if you must, but read back to what I was saying when i flip town.

[notquitethere]

Mr Flay

I need to think about whether hypoclaim would be a good idea, but I feel like it would just give scum information and not town.

The hypoclaim could work like a more focused version of my earlier hypotheticals: once we have a bit more information we'd easily be able to tell who was lying about what they would have done. Hmm... though I do see the danger of revealing too much to scum. How do these things usually work out?

Pitoli

I'd like to hear from the other players about what they think of rmp/my interaction on this page.

My gut says it's a storm in a teacup. While focusing on the words and deeds of your fellow players is what this game is all about, getting so wrapped up with just one player can narrow your focus, allowing scum to avoid necessary scrutiny. I don't have a strong read yet on either of you.

Jon

I notice you aren't scared to use your vote. Are you satisfied with Kattaze's answer? If so, why aren't you voting me, since you're implying I'm scum? I seriously suggest that if you're Town you vote who you think is scummiest. That way it's harder for scum to say you're setting up lynches, distancing, and all those other things scum like to try to accuse Town of.

Hah! You misunderstood my implication completely. I was trying to suggest that your behavior near the lynch was not typically scummy. But it's very interesting that you're immediate assumption is that I would find it suspicious. Do you think you comported yourself well near the end of Day 1?

[Xiao Long]

Whoa, had to catch up a few pages.
I'd also like to say my first post of D2 wasn't too well thought out as I'd completely forgotten that certain PR's can stop NK's. So, if we have a PR that did stop an NK, then they have more information. The rest of us, not so much.

From how I perceived it, Kattaze was a good candidate for a Night Kill, and I'd assume that the Mafia aimed him during the night, and the doctor protected him. Otherwise it's too coincidental for the doctor to just happen to random protect the right target.
Since I have barely any scum reads, I'll contribute what I can : I don't think Kattaze is scum (I know at this point it really feels like the two of us are scumbuddies, and if one of us flips scum that would really suck [particularly because I'm very scummy to you guys]).
In #323, Kattaze said that he was expecting to be NK'd, and I'm sure some doctor would try to protect him. The other possibility is that he is scum and purposely did that with a no NK, but that's really unlikely, as it doesn't confirm him as town, and wastes a night for Mafia.

I'm not sure if you're basically shouting to the world that you're doctor, or that you're scum and your NK was protected.

I'd like to hear from the other players about what they think of rmp/my interaction on this page.

It's almost like a replay of my interaction with her. She flat-out denies what she said, or says that she didn't mean what she said in the way that she worded it. Her posts are really frustrating to read to the point where I almost want to just skip them completely. She's still null for me, though.

[*]Xiao posts in frustration at T-41min, but he's also already voting lortaku. Technically he could have switched to Jerry for an equal L-1, but Jerry was the last person to post and Xiao didn't know if he'd keep that self-hammer threat.

Whoa, I actually didn't even realise that Jerry implied he would self-hammer. O_O
Not sure if I would have voted for him if I had, but I feel dumb for missing that.

Your analysis of RMP is pretty much spot-on.

Kattaze

I can totally empathise with not being awake at the deadline-- that's often he case for me too.

So if you understand why he wasn't there at the deadline to hammer, and you can empathise, why is your vote still on him? O_O

the word' squirrely' is also annoying, because I find 50 different definitions from people. Say what you mean, not just a word that other people like to use.

This makes me want to smash my head into the wall. "Say what you mean, not just a word that other people like to use" - what? Maybe that IS what he means? Maybe he IS one of the people that likes to use that word? You're complaining about him using a word to describe you because the word isn't flattering. <.<

[rmpeacoc]

I don't even want to give you all the satisfaction of having me fight back right now. Clearly you all think I'm scum, so vote me and lynch me. I'd rather be the ML now than have you lynch wrong on lylo.

[Xiao Long]

I don't even want to give you all the satisfaction of having me fight back right now. Clearly you all think I'm scum, so vote me and lynch me. I'd rather be the ML now than have you lynch wrong on lylo.

This is just a piss-poor, woe-is-me attitude, honestly. Rather than prove your innocence, you'd rather just give up? Hell, I didn't even say I thought you were scum still, I said you were null for me. Quit overreacting.

[Mr. Flay]

Would like to see our three non-voters vote for someone or at least declare their intent.

[Xiao Long]

Will do

VOTE: Lortaku

[pitoli]

Seeing a town Xiao right now.

[rmpeacoc]

Xiao, I've tried to prove myself. Pitoli is clearly stuck on me. At least Flay is looking elsewhere.

[jon_h61]

Hah! You misunderstood my implication completely. I was trying to suggest that your behavior near the lynch was not typically scummy. But it's very interesting that you're immediate assumption is that I would find it suspicious. Do you think you comported yourself well near the end of Day 1?

I probably did misunderstand, I sped read the last couple of pages. Though to me it did sound like you were calling me scum under fire, but I can see what you mean. It sucks having to borrow someone else's computer. I usually make a bunch of notepad files on players, and use an excel template to keep track of votes and things. I feel like a track runner on crutches ATM. But enough of that.

@rmpeacoc AtE is usually a null tell in and of itself, everyone uses it from time to time. You seem to lean heavily on it though. The feeling I get off of it is, since it helped you out of a tight spot once, you're leaning on it like a crutch.

I don't even want to give you all the satisfaction of having me fight back right now. Clearly you all think I'm scum, so vote me and lynch me. I'd rather be the ML now than have you lynch wrong on lylo.

I'm sure if you've played and/or read many games you've come across scum saying something very similar right before they flip. If you are Town, who do you think the scum are that are attacking you? What are you going to do to convince Town that you're being railroaded?

Xiao, I've tried to prove myself. Pitoli is clearly stuck on me. At least Flay is looking elsewhere.

If you're Town I'd start spending more energy on finding scum. You have no problem attacking someone over small things, but go over the top when anyone looks in your direction. I've went from thinking this is a null issue, to thinking this is a deliberate scum strategy to try and keep votes off of you. Before you start jumping on me for attacking you, do you think I'm doing this from Town's viewpoint, or scum's? Why do you feel this way?

[notquitethere]

Xiao

So if you understand why he wasn't there at the deadline to hammer, and you can empathise, why is your vote still on him? O_O

I've still got an outstanding question, about his vote on Jon in light of Jon's more town-like recent play.

Pitoli

Seeing a town Xiao right now.

What, because he jumps straight back on the Lortaku wagon without further discussion? I'm not saying that's a terrible move, I just don't see it as a strong town-tell.

Lotaku

Seriously, where are you? We're going to have to lynch or replace you if you don't stat making cases.

Jerry

My scumdar is pinging-- are you going to be doing anything useful with your vote?

[Xiao Long]

Xiao, I've tried to prove myself. Pitoli is clearly stuck on me. At least Flay is looking elsewhere.

Obviously she isn't convinced. And it's understandable why she's focusing on you, especially in light of recent actions.

Xiao

So if you understand why he wasn't there at the deadline to hammer, and you can empathise, why is your vote still on him? O_O

I've still got an outstanding question, about his vote on Jon in light of Jon's more town-like recent play.

That's understandable, but is there anything else particularly scummy about him that you would like to point out?

What, because he jumps straight back on the Lortaku wagon without further discussion?

I'm still voting based off of previous reasons, but his whole post about Doctor doing this or that makes me wonder. If he is Doctor, his flip would be unfortunate, but it would serve to clear others and he could tell us who he protected, but if he's scum, then yay, we lynched scum.

I really want to hear more about what others think on that post, and I'd also like for

Lortaku

to kindly FUCKING POST MORE. Please.

[rmpeacoc]

@jon Have you not noticed that no matter what I say, no matter how I explain myself, I get accused of being scum. Yes, I'm certain at least one of Pitoli/Flay/Xiao is scum now... it's hard to discern which one I think is scum for sure, because they're all ALL OVER me.

I'm really done responding to xiao and pitoli

Xiao was rude before and is getting extremely rude now again, he thinks that because I posted after him I was talking to only him 407 was not pointed at him.

If you haven't noticed it's really hard to say ANYTHING when you get accused of being scum for everything you say. I'm not trying to appeal to your emotions, I'm trying not to give up, but it sure feels like everyone and against me, and it sucks even more knowing that I want Lortaku lynched but that's only going to bring the hammer down me even more tomorrow... Especially not knowing how many scum there are, and not knowing how many ml's we have. Like I said I'd rather be ML'd now. Take that as a scum tactic if you like, but that's how I feel. Being honest is townie no matter how you spin it.

[rmpeacoc]

@xiao okay one last response.

how do you think Pitoli 'obviously' isn't convinced? She seems rather convinced to me.

[Kattaze]

@jon Have you not noticed that no matter what I say, no matter how I explain myself, I get accused of being scum. Yes, I'm certain at least one of Pitoli/Flay/Xiao is scum now... it's hard to discern which one I think is scum for sure, because they're all ALL OVER me.

I'm really done responding to xiao and pitoli

Xiao was rude before and is getting extremely rude now again, he thinks that because I posted after him I was talking to only him 407 was not pointed at him.

If you haven't noticed it's really hard to say ANYTHING when you get accused of being scum for everything you say. I'm not trying to appeal to your emotions, I'm trying not to give up, but it sure feels like everyone and against me, and it sucks even more knowing that I want Lortaku lynched but that's only going to bring the hammer down me even more tomorrow...

Especially not knowing how many scum there are

, and not knowing how many ml's we have. Like I said I'd rather be ML'd now. Take that as a scum tactic if you like, but that's how I feel. Being honest is townie no matter how you spin it.

There are 2. It says in the game setup.

I will respond to NQT's question soon.

[JerryArr]

Jerry

My scumdar is pinging-- are you going to be doing anything useful with your vote?

I will, yes. Me not immediately voting lor was mostly to prevent Day 2 from being real short. I like the rmpeacoc vote, but I'm still putting lor in slot one for a lynch. I would like to see just one more post from lor, though, before I do put my vote in.

I really want to hear more about what others think on that post, and I'd also like for

Lortaku

to kindly FUCKING POST MORE. Please.

{Really bright yellow removed}

Um... ow.

[Kattaze]

Kattaze

I can totally empathise with not being awake at the deadline-- that's often he case for me too. Question, is this the behavior of scum under fire:

Wow I've never been in a no lynch before. I'd seriously urge that we lynch someone, even me. Come on folks, let's get it together and lynch someone. IF you lynch me, seriously consider Kattaze tomorrow, I know they'll hem and haw, but don't let them get away clean. I think they're trying to line up enough mis-lynches to win.

I'll take one for the team if it keeps us from no lynching.

?

(Will address others and any outstanding questions in a few hours time)

This is a good question. When I first read it I saw it as scum under fire. It looked to me like a desperate effort to convince people he was town: "I'm so pro-town that I'm willing to sacrifice myself so we don't no-lynch". This was a completely empty promise, IMO, because when he posted it he was at L-2 and lortaku was at L-3. An hour later (and 5 hours before deadline) he said he had to go and wouldn't be back before deadline. If he really would have taken one for the team, why didn't he put himself into L-1 at this point? The only information he had at that time was that he was closer to being lynched than lortaku, so if he really wanted a lynch the most effective thing he could have done was self-vote. Of course he didn't, and wasn't anywhere to be seen at the deadline (I know he said he was out but don't you have a phone? Could have checked it just once, even 5 mins before the deadline).

Jon's reaction to your question in #399 confirmed my suspicions that it was scummy desperation. Like you said (#405), he ruled out the possibility that you were saying his behaviour looked more towny than scummy. Why? Because he

IS

scum and he slipped into scum thinking.

It becomes even more obvious when you look at this:

I don't even want to give you all the satisfaction of having me fight back right now. Clearly you all think I'm scum, so vote me and lynch me. I'd rather be the ML now than have you lynch wrong on lylo.

I'm sure if you've played and/or read many games you've come across scum saying something very similar right before they flip.

If you are Town, who do you think the scum are that are attacking you? What are you going to do to convince Town that you're being railroaded?

He pretty much damns himself here. If the bit I put in bold is true, then isn't that exactly what jon did before the deadline yesterday? Basically crying out to lynch him because even if he's town because it will help them in the long run. The hypocrisy of this quote is pretty striking, he's attacking rmp for something he did himself yesterday.

Guys, as I've said multiple times, I'm pretty convinced that jon is scum and I think we should lynch him today. If I'm wrong, I'd be happy to self-vote tomorrow for all the damage I've caused.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not sure if you're basically shouting to the world that you're doctor, or that you're scum and your NK was protected.

I wish you hadn't come right out and said it, but yes. Those are basically the two options, especially given post 312 from D1.

he hypoclaim could work like a more focused version of my earlier hypotheticals: once we have a bit more information we'd easily be able to tell who was lying about what they would have done. Hmm... though I do see the danger of revealing too much to scum. How do these things usually work out?

Like I said, badly outside of an Open Setup. I've never even seen one run in the wild, but it's bandied about sometimes when you've got enough time/protective roles to stymie the scum. We have neither.

Also: EVERYONE STOP TALKING ABOUT TOWN SELF-VOTING AS IF IT WERE A GOOD THING. Outside of the extreme circumstance of avoiding a mislynch, it's never useful; even then it's only marginally useful. Doing it at L-1 instead of as an emergency hammer almost certainly would have brought a crappy knee-jerk vote on Jon. Make the scum (and your fellow town, for that matter) work for your lynch.

[pitoli]

That's a good catch Kattaze... Jon should have an interesting response.

Also, three cheers to this post:

Also: EVERYONE STOP TALKING ABOUT TOWN SELF-VOTING AS IF IT WERE A GOOD THING.

Outside of the extreme circumstance of avoiding a mislynch, it's never useful; even then it's only marginally useful. Doing it at L-1 instead of as an emergency hammer almost certainly would have brought a crappy knee-jerk vote on Jon. Make the scum (and your fellow town, for that matter) work for your lynch.

[rmpeacoc]

There are 2. It says in the game setup.

Thank you. I clearly confused this setup with another. My apologies.


As a side note. Thank you for being rather civil and respectful. I realize you don't seem to be jumping on the bandwagon anyway, but you seem to handle yourself quite calmly and civilly and I appreciate that.

[pitoli]

Pitoli

Seeing a town Xiao right now.

What, because he jumps straight back on the Lortaku wagon without further discussion? I'm not saying that's a terrible move, I just don't see it as a strong town-tell.

The vote was fine.
I feel Town-Xiao from my gut after rereads, reinforced by seeing a scummier RMP.