Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[fferyllt]

sikon327 - thanks for your detailed response to my initial prod. In response to your questions back to me, I'll vote either randomly during a RVS if we need to instigate discussion and create info (prior to my post, sufficient info was generated that I didn't see the need for a random vote alongside my questions.) Or I'll vote when I have more conviction (I have not done enough digging yet to support any of my theories, for or against you or any other player.) So, no vote thus far.

If I may, I'd like to explain the scum tendency of leaning town on multiple people... there are a number of reasons for this. Scum know who is town, therefore they can/will be correct when it suits them (ie, later they can point back and say "Hey, my read on that guy was town... now he's dead, I was right, I'm a good guy.") Also, they can build credibility with town members by leaning/suggesting that they are town... especially with some more novice players. Very often a town player will feel validated like they are doing good, when somebody else thinks they are town. (In my experience, it's more important to find scum than for other people to think you are town. Scum will often NK the most trusted town person to maintain control.) There are a thousand other scenarios, but these are just a few, and we are of course exploring all that we can on Day 1.

A meta dive on me will show you that I post early town reads when I get them. I'll be happy to provide some links, but my wiki page has links to all my MS games, with my alignment in the ones that have completed. The BSG Micro and the Buzzword Bingo Micro that completed today would be good starts. I was a hydra (one account for two people sharing the same role) in the Buzzword Bingo game. My posts are signed with an "- f" usually.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=User:Fferyllt

It can be scummy, yes. But that is pretty player-specific.

[likeabauss]

Very strong gut feeling about this
You post like someone trying to stir up trouble while keeping yourself out of it.

I find this comment very interesting. What is your opinion of what a town person should do? Sit by idly, just reading, and not try to find scum? I like to question and dig, in an effort to obtain information, or "stir up trouble" as you put it. Please explain a bit more.

"Keeping myself out of it" - I don't mind "some trouble", because sometimes we apply heat to players to find out if they break down and the facade becomes known. Please note though... in this game, town and scum alike are avoiding "real trouble" (being hung or NK'd.) So your suggestion that avoiding trouble is a reason to vote for me is not logical... every player in this game (town and scum) is trying to avoid being killed.

And lastly, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about some of those other things you said you noticed as you read through the posts thus far.

[Morthas]

Very strong gut feeling about this
You post like someone trying to stir up trouble while keeping yourself out of it.

I find this comment very interesting. What is your opinion of what a town person should do? Sit by idly, just reading, and not try to find scum? I like to question and dig, in an effort to obtain information, or "stir up trouble" as you put it. Please explain a bit more.

"Keeping myself out of it" - I don't mind "some trouble", because sometimes we apply heat to players to find out if they break down and the facade becomes known. Please note though... in this game, town and scum alike are avoiding "real trouble" (being hung or NK'd.) So your suggestion that avoiding trouble is a reason to vote for me is not logical... every player in this game (town and scum) is trying to avoid being killed.

And lastly, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about some of those other things you said you noticed as you read through the posts thus far.

Finding scum priority which is why I voted for you. I had a feeling your priorities lied elsewhere
No sorry, I really don't care whether I die or not and will not withhold something in case someone finds it scummy.
I think Kue is town. His train of thought doesn't match with that of scum. I may post quotes tomorrow.

[Morthas]

EBWOP: Finding scum is top priority***

[Kueshina]

Looking over the votes, I notice that 2 wagons have gone to 2/5 votes(on cAPSLOCK and likeabauss), and sikon327 was on both of them. There's also likeabauss's case against him, and the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves. I'll UNVOTE: fferyllt and VOTE: sikon723. I believe that leaves the votes like this:

Code: Select all

Lynx_Shine        [.....]0/5
likeabauss        [||...]2/5 : sikon327, Morthas
Kueshina          [|....]1/5 : imkingdavid
cAPSLOCK          [|....]1/5 : JasonWazza
sikon327          [|....]1/5 : Kueshina
Morthas (SE)      [.....]0/5
imkingdavid (SE)  [.....]0/5 
JasonWazza (SE)   [.....]0/5
fferyllt (IC)     [.....]0/5

My current reads are
Scummiest: sikon723
Also scummy: Morthas, likeabauss, fferyllt
Not very scummy: Lynx_Shine, cAPSLOCK, imkingdavid, JasonWazza

[imkingdavid]

Okay, given the activity level in this game, I should probably go ahead and put this disclaimer: I've just started a full time job and am therefore going to be mostly unavailable during the work day until evening/night (except during lunch/breaks on my phone). I do of course plan to be active, but probably not as active as some of you (if the activity so far is any indication). Also, I'm responding now a bit earlier than I might normally because we went home early due to an incoming storm today.

-----

Anyway...

Kue - my vote was mostly "random", in the sense of how random is used in RVS on this site. I simply went to the list of players and looked for the player who would be last to confirm (i.e. you) and voted accordingly. I figured that was obvious due to the joking use of "obvscum" and the fact that it was still on page one. Next time I'll try to be more clear.

I don't agree that it is necessarily very advantageous for scum to purposely delay their confirmation because they have to stop talking privately as soon as day begins (with 7/9 confirmations), so they don't really gain anything from waiting. If anything, I think last to confirm is a null tell. It just comes around to who happened to be afk at the time.

In any case, I think we've generally made it out of RVS by now because there is actual discussion and suspicion based on reactions from RVS. That's a good thing.

-----

I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions on who are scum partners just yet. It can be a bad thing to link two people either as scum or as town prior to knowing at least one scum's identity.

-----

Right now, I have my suspicions of sikon based really only on his sort of apologetic and (from my point of view) insecure attitude so far. Seems very afraid to ruffle any feathers.

[cAPSLOCK]

I feel like Lynx Shine could be talking a little more. Zero posts after confirm if I'm working the iso thing correctly.

You there Lynx?

vote: Lynx Shine

[JasonWazza]

I will be here in 6-7 hours to answer the questions (i saw someone direct me to some)

[likeabauss]

I just want to point out that Kueshina and imkingdavid just demonstrated real scum hunting in their most recent posts. Thoughtful insights and additions to the conversation that warrant consideration and exploration. I too noticed sikons overly polite tone and such, but didnt piece it together as scummy until imking pointed it out. I was also satisfied with Kues responses to my questions previously, as the logic makes sense and is reasonable town play, in my opinion. I'd like to see how those questions they raised are handled and discussed though...

Morthas - you didn't really answer my question at all. Yes, finding scum is the top priority. Simply stating that is like saying that grass is green or water is wet. You aren't adding anything of real value, like insights/questions/observations. How do you suggest we hang scum on Day 1? If stirring things up is a scummy thing to do (as you suggested), what other tactics should one employ? (for the record, I disagree with you completely because I have seen stirring things up hang a bad guy on Day 1 many times.) I'm interested to hear an answer, if you'd be so kind.

[likeabauss]

A meta dive on me will show you that I post early town reads when I get them. I'll be happy to provide some links, but my wiki page has links to all my MS games, with my alignment in the ones that have completed. The BSG Micro and the Buzzword Bingo Micro that completed today would be good starts. I was a hydra (one account for two people sharing the same role) in the Buzzword Bingo game. My posts are signed with an "- f" usually.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=User:Fferyllt

It can be scummy, yes. But that is pretty player-specific.

I sort of glazed over this before, but reading through the thread again, it struck me as odd. I made no mention about this type of play from you Fferyllt. Why the pre-emptive defense? Feeling guilty?

[fferyllt]

My early town reads are something of a sore point atm.

[likeabauss]

My early town reads are something of a sore point atm.

I'm completely underwhelmed by this response. Care to elaborate?

[fferyllt]

Can't, entirely, because ongoing games, but the huge difference between playing with players who know my game and players who don't just doesn't get better.

So I gave you the names of two representative completed games listed on my wiki page. One where the playerlist for the most part had no idea of my meta and one where I was playing with people who know my game well. There are a couple months between the two games, and a number of the same players in the lists. In the BSG game, I came under extreme suspicion for giving out a town read after about 21 posts and was eventually mislynched. In the Buzzword Bingo game, townreads on page 2 were no big deal. That game ended today in a perfect town win. Although it takes longer, I'm not too bad a scum reads either.

[cAPSLOCK]

I will be here in 6-7 hours to answer the questions (i saw someone direct me to some)

So far you came roaring out of the gate swinging about noobs and RVS. But since then you have just skated along. Kinda scummy to tell the truth. So far the only statement you've made has been more or less: "I am opposed to players who on their first post here do not follow convention".

Kinda weak. Hello?

You've made a great show of principal and voting. Where's the content?

[Lynx_Shine]

This thing just happened to start the day I had to go to a company picnic, hence the confirm and disappear.

As for how to start day 1, depending on the setup:

massclaim

, some PRs claim to get doc/watcher protection but others say hidden, hypocopping, in dethy and similar everyone outs their reports, if there's a bulletproof the get told that they get shot, they claim if they got shot, if there's no bulletproof but

there's a doc and no kill, sometimes they tell everyone who they saved

, etc.

I might've missed something in that mess of formatting, but I'm locking in on the ones I bolded. Where are you getting that a massclaim would ever be a good idea for Town on Day 1? "Power roles all of you claim and hope we have Doc to protect you and scum aren't pulling false roles from the open chart." Why would the Doctor

ever

reveal just to say they saved somebody? They'll get killed now.

Also not sure why you claim ffery is buddying sikon after they had a brief argument/discussion over play preference. Above anything she's the IC and sikon doesn't have a little two-letter title, that sounds like the natural place to go to ask a meta question.

VOTE: Kueshina

I just want to point out that Kueshina and imkingdavid just demonstrated real scum hunting in their most recent posts. Thoughtful insights and additions to the conversation that warrant consideration and exploration.

Could you elaborate a bit more on Kue? Both of their answers came down to "it was just RVS", but while imking brings up a legitimate point, Kue is trying to find partners based on vote analysis before anything. My issue with this is "X and Y are partners" potentially lines up "well X wasn't actually scum, but maybe Y is so let's go for that lynch."

This may be a meta thing, so two wolves typically start a wagon or copy each others' votes so hard here?

the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves.

He's not even consistent on whether scum partners buddy or create distance in the same sentence.

[JasonWazza]

I will be here in 6-7 hours to answer the questions (i saw someone direct me to some)

So far you came roaring out of the gate swinging about noobs and RVS. But since then you have just skated along. Kinda scummy to tell the truth. So far the only statement you've made has been more or less: "I am opposed to players who on their first post here do not follow convention".

Kinda weak. Hello?

You've made a great show of principal and voting. Where's the content?

You just earned yourself a fucking rage post and you will see why

NO ONE IS HERE 24/7

SOME PEOPLE CAN'T POST CONTENT EVERY 5-6 HOURS

SOME PEOPLE CAN ONLY POST CONTENT EVERY 24 HOURS.

Now i will give you time stamps on my end of when my last 2 posts before this were posted

Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:23 pm

Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:44 am

FOR FUCKS SAKE DON'T EXPECT ME TO POST WHILE I'M FUCKING SLEEPING.

[JasonWazza]

Ok since that rage post is out of my system i will re-read what i missed and post content.

[JasonWazza]

Also realize i am doing this as i go, if something is already addressed, basically ignore that part

Well would you look at that? It's my scum day! Four years ago today I made the decision to never trust anyone ever again.

VOTE: Kueshina

Last to confirm. Obvscum. Die.

-----

btw fferyllt - lacking RVS, what is your plan for starting Day 1? RQS?

Day 1s always start fine without me RVSing.

(because everyone else RVS's and starts the game for you )

Some day i want to see a game with all the people that refuse to RVS and see how slow it starts off.

For me its just a distaste for the arbitrary. All the logic behind random voting seems extinguished even on the newbie side here. Then again we need fodder to get started.

Reasoning for RVS is simple

It starts content based discussion, yeah reason's start out as petty, but they become real very very quickly.

The other ways to start the game are less effective (General conversation, RQS, No Lynching for examples that i can think of.) and generally all end up producing a lot of fluff or useless content that is alignment null.

I'll VOTE: fferyllt because he seems like he might be buddying sikon327.

Why is the buddying coming from scum over town?

JasonWazza - Not to put you on the spot, but I'd like your insights on my questions above.

If i haven't answered it in the rest of the post, ask it again, but i think i answered everything that needed it.

In these games, and particularly the newbie section how much of the three weeks do the players tend to use on average before reaching consensus?

Depends on a lot of things really, like how quickly content starts to build up, if someone just is plain scummy, if town is kinda 2 sided about an argument.

Generally i'd say it's closer to 2 weeks of the 3 weeks, but a lot of groups will tend to take the whole 3 and deadline lynch (though if at all possible it is best to avoid.)

Actually, come to think of it, likeabauss, I just noticed something seriously wrong about your post. I initially didn't notice because I was too busy attempting to address the questions you raised about my behaviour, but... let's put it like this.

In your post, you had questions for a few people, but the majority of your post was directed towards me. You formed a clear, concise case with a rather plausible narrative for why my behaviour was scummy. Your post was probably the first legitimate content forming a case for one of the players actually being scum.

But you didn't vote for me. You don't think your narrative justifies putting your vote on me. Why not? Seems to me when you make a claim like that, you accompany it with a vote, but here, you don't seem to have the guts to actually take responsibility for leading a wagon on me.

Now

that

is suspicious.

UNVOTE: cAPSLOCK
VOTE: likeabauss

I'm terribly sorry for jumping from one vote to another so quickly, but... I think I'm onto something here.

Why is that suspicious when he hasn't put a vote down at all?

If he had a vote, yeah it's scummy, but without a vote down it's null as there are a few people who have this in their playstyles

You need to learn the difference between a playstyle tell and an alignment tell.



I'm gonna keep my vote on cAPSLOCK because he is trying to push suspicion based on not being online for 24 hours, that is actually a normal thing, if someone hasn't posted for a few days then MAYBE you have a case.

But here is another thing, he is mostly coming off very defensive, his sitting on his hands, voting "lurkers" (quote's cause they aren't lurkers he is just pushing that reason) and he isn't doing any scumhunting whatsoever.

[cAPSLOCK]

You just earned yourself a fucking rage post and you will see why

NO ONE IS HERE 24/7

SOME PEOPLE CAN'T POST CONTENT EVERY 5-6 HOURS

SOME PEOPLE CAN ONLY POST CONTENT EVERY 24 HOURS.

Now i will give you time stamps on my end of when my last 2 posts before this were posted

FOR FUCKS SAKE DON'T EXPECT ME TO POST WHILE I'M FUCKING SLEEPING.

Wow you are overly touchy. Not to mention dead wrong. I never complained about your posting frequency or timing. I never had any problem with you sleeping. I just pointed out you had added exactly zero to the conversation. I stand by that claim. Glad to see you up and at em now though. Welcome to the game.

Now that you are taking part it seems you are here to defend likeabauss. (Along with continue to ride my tail)

You have history with him? Or are you two somehow related in THIS game.

By the way... Lay off the caps lock. I find it personally insulting.

As per way of my learning I take it personal attacks (rage poasts lol) and profanity are acceptable here?

[JasonWazza]

Page 1 don't expect walls of content, so when you quote a post of mine saying i'll answer questions in 6-7 hours don't bitch that i'm not posting content.

In fact i'd say my content was better then yours considering you haven't done anything but sit on your hands and wait for content, defend yourself, and push lurker votes.

Also i didn't just "defend" likeabauss, by the same token i "defended" fferyllt which i didn't in either case.

I questioned the case, because voting someone because they aren't voting someone that they are implying is scummy IF AND ONLY IF they are voting someone else.

Hence i think it is scummy to imply that it is scummy to not vote, that's a playstyle tell.

Also that rage post was entirely justified.

[likeabauss]

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

[fferyllt]

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

It was in response to the player that I tentatively townread, and appeared to be an indirect dig in my direction. It also was the post immediately after Kus putting down a vote on me with the reasoning that I was buddying sikon, so it also looked like indirect support for that vote.

Your play in this game so far seems to be oblique and indirect in some ways. I am going to make some time for a meta dive to see if that's typical of your town game.

[sikon327]

Right now, I have my suspicions of sikon based really only on his sort of apologetic and (from my point of view) insecure attitude so far. Seems very afraid to ruffle any feathers.

Ah, yeah, lemme just say, if you knew me IRL, you wouldn't find my "aplogetic and insecure attitude" suspicious AT ALL. It's kind of how I am. I think I'm starting to settle in though.

Why is that suspicious when he hasn't put a vote down at all?

If he had a vote, yeah it's scummy, but without a vote down it's null as there are a few people who have this in their playstyles

You need to learn the difference between a playstyle tell and an alignment tell.

With regards to likeabauss:

The problem I have with his lack of voting is that, it seems to me, when a townie thinks someone is scum, they place their vote on them, because frankly, why not do that? But likeabauss's play has been unusually hesitant to actually place a vote. At all. He has not voted for one single person throughout the game thus far.

It seems to me that he knows that when a mislynch happens, the people on that person's wagon will be the first to come under fire. Knowing this, he hopes that by pointing out errors, inconsistencies, and strange behaviour in others' play, he may cause townies to become suspicious, and to form a wagon on them of their own accord. When the person flips town, he escapes scrutiny because he never actually voted for the person, or so he hopes.

I've had a look through his previous games -- there are two of them, one newbie, one mini normal, and in both of them, he's town. And in neither of those games does he display the hesitance to vote for possible scum that is present in this game. So why has he suddenly become cautious about voting? The way I see it, he either had some kind of epiphany in-between his previous game and this one, or he is merely playing differently now because he now has a different role -- that of the town's enemy.

Looking over the votes, I notice that 2 wagons have gone to 2/5 votes(on cAPSLOCK and likeabauss), and sikon327 was on both of them. There's also likeabauss's case against him, and the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves. I'll UNVOTE: fferyllt and VOTE: sikon723. I believe that leaves the votes like this:

Code: Select all

Lynx_Shine        [.....]0/5
likeabauss        [||...]2/5 : sikon327, Morthas
Kueshina          [|....]1/5 : imkingdavid
cAPSLOCK          [|....]1/5 : JasonWazza
sikon327          [|....]1/5 : Kueshina
Morthas (SE)      [.....]0/5
imkingdavid (SE)  [.....]0/5 
JasonWazza (SE)   [.....]0/5
fferyllt (IC)     [.....]0/5

My current reads are
Scummiest: sikon723
Also scummy: Morthas, likeabauss, fferyllt
Not very scummy: Lynx_Shine, cAPSLOCK, imkingdavid, JasonWazza

Well, first of all, two votes does not a wagon make. That's just... me and exactly one other person.

I placed a vote on cAPS because I thought it was strange that he wasn't actually contributing much content to the discussion, in spite of repeated claims that he wanted to start a conversation. Then, very quickly after, I moved my vote from cAPSLOCK, who had a vote on him, to likeabauss, who, at the time, had no votes whatsoever, but who I had suddenly realized had something more definitively "off" about his play. There are, of course, a couple votes on him now, but when I voted him, I wasn't joining a wagon, as you seem to say -- I was starting one. This doesn't exactly fit your proposed narrative of me as a wagon-hopping opportunist hoping to ride his way to a minimal-effort mislynch.

[likeabauss]

sikon - I'm glad you're invested in this game, active players make it more fun for all of us. Did you notice in both of those games here on mafiascum, that I found scum on Day 1 and successfully lynched them? (this is why I find Morthas's comment so confusing... when he suggests that stirring things up does not help to find scum.) It was nothing more than subtle nuance and cues that I observed and explored in both cases. I can assure you that my methods of interrogation and observation can be very productive. In those two games, I picked up on something very early and was correct. My interrogation yielded responses that didn't satisfy my suspicions, and we hung bad guys.

But back to your argument about my voting... I explained my behavior pretty clearly I thought. I don't have enough conviction yet, and we are past the frivolous stage of RVS in my opinion. Are you avoiding the logic there because it contradicts your goal of lynching a townie? (you're re-supporting an argument that you made, despite it being clearly refuted, IMO) Or do you just not like logical play?

Also, do you feel threatened (are you scum?) Is that why you voted for me and then went to research my prior games? Or is that your typical level of involvement in mafia? I'm not one to dive too deeply into meta history as it can be changed by an experienced player, or maintained to illustrate consistency and pseudo alignment.

Lynx - Though I disagree with Kue's association of Morthas and sikon, because I think scum would be silly to associate with a vote this early, there is effort there. (Association and disassociation patterns are very complex and can be difficult to articulate well without a longer trend to analyze.) And I latched onto iamking's observation because it is exactly the kind of "subtle tell" I look for on Day 1. But, nonetheless it appears to be efforts by both of them to actually FIND SCUM.

[sikon327]

I don't really feel like you have responded to my concerns. I restated them because I feel like they were misunderstood, and now you're claiming that your non-sequitur about not voting during RVS answers my question so well, that only a scum would press the issue. It doesn't. I'm going to ask one more time, in the most unambiguous way that I can.

Why, exactly, do you "lack conviction?" Why is it that you believe that you don't have enough evidence to vote me? Statements like "it contradicts your goal of lynching a townie," "do you not like logical play," "do you feel threatened," "are you scum" do not sound like the rhetoric of someone who "isn't sure." What is it that you're afraid will happen if you vote me "prematurely"?

Or, alternatively, if this is a more comfortable/appropriate question for you to answer: Why use rhetoric that centers around the idea that I am scum trying to lynch a townie if you aren't actually convinced that I'm scum?

I earnestly hope these questions are clear enough.