Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win

[JasonWazza]

I was hoping for more insights from you... there have been a number of new angles developed since you RVS'd cAPSLOCK and just left your vote there. I'd love for you to share your "list" or maybe explore some of the observations that are being discussed.

The game may be "meh to read" because you aren't adding enough of your flavor to it. Try that and see if it helps?

I RVS'd cAPSLOCK correct, but that is a real vote now, if you haven't been keeping track.

[imkingdavid]

I really, really hate to do this to you guys, but my job is taking a heck of a lot more time than I thought it would and I don't have time to participate like I had hoped.

@mod - I'm very sorry, but please replace me.

[fferyllt]

sorry to hear that. Hope to play another game with you sometime soon.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: imkingdavid

[likeabauss]

Kueshina is on my tentative town list. My original read was that something was off, so I prodded and questioned, even tossed a little bait in there. I applied some heat and even was insulting. Here's what I took away:

Kue is a stranger in a strange land. Playing mafia here, learning the play here... All the responses seem in line with this and genuine in nature. This alone doesn't read town, it's null. But...

Kue is not afraid to think out loud. We saw some funny exchanges, discussion of mass claims, questions about roles, misunderstanding of RVS, and logic that didn't quite compute. A noob to the board that drew a scum role would be afraid of doing any of those things... Especially on day 1 without much coaching or background. (I'd expect a more lurky Day 1 in that scenario)

Kue recognizes that townies need to share ideas and foster discussion. I believe we've seen an answer to every question asked directly, answers to open ended questions, as well as attempts to explore what little data we have. Also, I see scum hunting without being prodded, right out of the gate. Instead of saying "Not much to work with", Kue spotted some things nobody else made mention of and pointed them out.

The "off" part I intend to explore as the game goes on, but I have a few ideas about it and most of them support a town read.

[likeabauss]

I RVS'd cAPSLOCK correct, but that is a real vote now, if you haven't been keeping track.

Oh no, I got that. I just wanted to hear if you had any other ideas or observations.

[RachMarie]

Looking for a replacement for iamkingdavid.

Will be using the ol cattle prod on a couple of people soon if they dont post.....

Pick up the pace peeps thanks.... Rach

[RachMarie]

annnnnddd Cheery Dog replaces in for iamkingdavid immediately....

[Cheery Dog]

I think this is the longest catch-up wall I've done upon replacing into a game, well done on having that much for me to discuss I guess. (yeah old stuff deal with it)

There seems to be plenty of flailing around going on, and I'll be glad to take part. I suppose if people weren't rvsing I'd most likely try to start something...

What made you unable to start something anyway? People RVSing shouldn't stop you from starting something.
Also what makes you happy to flail (aka not progress with the game?)

As for how to start day 1, depending on the setup: massclaim, some PRs claim to get doc/watcher protection but others say hidden, hypocopping, in dethy and similar everyone outs their reports, if there's a bulletproof the get told that they get shot, they claim if they got shot, if there's no bulletproof but there's a doc and no kill, sometimes they tell everyone who they saved, etc.
In this particular setup, I suspect that if any of those strategies were worthwhile, people would be doing them instead of the RVS. Our PRs are safer not claiming (with the possible exception of the BP, but in the newbie games I've read noone asks for BP claims d1), and it's day start; noone was saved from a kill and no one has any reports.

I don't think any games on this site work well with day 1 mass claims, unless they're dethy type games where everyone investigates and they're actually designed for the massclaim.
Some could work, but it ruins the fun of the game in my opinion. I also play elsewhere where they have open communication and mass claims happen via that, the breaking of setups there doesn't trill me.

My main problem is that up to 3 weeks worth of day 1 gives me way too much time for second guessing.

What you giving misleading information on the length of day in this game for? bad IC.

Since it was RVS, I didn't have any better leads. Even in the RVS, ISTM that you should try to make cases that are better than nothing, or at least not worse than nothing, and to me imkingdavid's case looked worse than random, voting me for something that was, if anything, a towntell (at least, that's how it seemed at the time; as sikon327 pointed out scum do have an incentive to stretch out the confirmation phase.).

When people confirm can never actually be a scum or town tell - there's way too much variance in it. I guess you could force a meta issue with it by always confirming earlier with one alignment, but that's against the spirit of the game in the same way someone always replacing out if they draw scum.

Scum know who is town, therefore they can/will be correct when it suits them (ie, later they can point back and say "Hey, my read on that guy was town... now he's dead, I was right, I'm a good guy.") Also, they can build credibility with town members by leaning/suggesting that they are town... especially with some more novice players. Very often a town player will feel validated like they are doing good, when somebody else thinks they are town. (In my experience, it's more important to find scum than for other people to think you are town. Scum will often NK the most trusted town person to maintain control.) There are a thousand other scenarios, but these are just a few, and we are of course exploring all that we can on Day 1.

Until we've had flips of a few of them (and then the reactions, if they're saying it like your example then obvscum, as that fact alone is never worth a town read)
The main thing to watch out of is how they're downgrading these leaning townreads when the lynch isn't quite happening for them.

Looking over the votes, I notice that 2 wagons have gone to 2/5 votes(on cAPSLOCK and likeabauss), and sikon327 was on both of them. There's also likeabauss's case against him, and the way Morthas copied sikon327's vote on likeabauss makes me wonder if Morthas and sikon723 are scumpartners, although it also seems possible that likeabauss and sikon723 are scumpartners distancing themselves. I'll UNVOTE: fferyllt and VOTE: sikon723.

I like this thought process even though the logic is flawed with only 2 people on wagons - general townposting by Kueshina here.

This may be a meta thing, so two wolves typically start a wagon or copy each others' votes so hard here?

They generally won't do as such during day 1, but everything is possible, it would be just pushing where they feel town is weakest if they're joining a wagon directly after each other.

Some day i want to see a game with all the people that refuse to RVS and see how slow it starts off.

Only if they also avoid RQS and bold statements about how they're going to play the game.

The other ways to start the game are less effective (General conversation, RQS, No Lynching for examples that i can think of.) and generally all end up producing a lot of fluff or useless content that is alignment null.

RVS usually produces a heap of fluff itself. (RQS is obviously the worst offender)

Fferyllt - let me clarify. I understand the point you are making about your play style, history, meta, etc. My question to you is why did you bring it up in the first place? I made mention of a different player doing a similar thing, as part of a line of questioning to that player, and you chimed in with a defense for YOUR actions. I never mentioned you doing it, neither did anyone else that I can see.

It smells fishy to me, mostly because good guys (town) operate under the confidence of their innocence. Bad guys (scum) are forced to mask their guilt and put on a show. This subtle difference changes the nuance of some things. One of the things I look for is people who are overly defensive (which you've exhibited in this maneuver) because scum feel the need to defend and keep the heat off. A town player knows their innocence and wont be as touchy or knee jerk on defense, especially against an accusation made against a completely different player.

This is only true for some players - how big a kneejerk reaction is generally depends on what the actual case is and how much sense the it makes to the player in question.
If I poke your knee it would do something completely different to if I hit your knee with a sledgehammer.

I've had a look through his previous games -- there are two of them, one newbie, one mini normal, and in both of them, he's town. And in neither of those games does he display the hesitance to vote for possible scum that is present in this game. So why has he suddenly become cautious about voting? The way I see it, he either had some kind of epiphany in-between his previous game and this one, or he is merely playing differently now because he now has a different role -- that of the town's enemy.

As has been said always the games were over 3 years old - but this doesn't mean you just have to exclude them completely - the general personality of a person should stay the same (even over such a large time frame), which is what you actually look for when making meta references.

If the setup has lots of different town roles, massclaiming d1 can be a good strategy. As an extreme case, if every townie has a different role then each scum can only counterclaim 1 townie, and all uncced townies are clear (if the setup isn't randomized). In setups where private communication is allowed, if massclaiming would be an advantage except mafia would gain too much from knowing who the powerroles are, having a confirmed innocent to massclaim to can be worth losing the doc.

This is practically why townies don't have different roles in every game (there's the occassional role madness game here that does) - winning by breaking setups doesn't have the same level of fun as scumhunting. (and in games where every town member as a different role/name, scum will usually be given fakeclaims to stop this from happening) Though if you the one doing the actual breaking you get some enjoyment I guess.

I'll UNVOTE: sikon723... and now I'm not sure whether to vote cAPSLOCK or fferyllt. I suppose lack of scumhunting from a newbie could just be lack of experience scumhunting, whereas lack of scumhunting from an IC is more suspicious, so I'll VOTE: fferyllt

Do you pick up any opinions on alignments with what they have posted? Voting on not scumhunting rarely works in my opinion (maybe because people call me out on it because I like to ask questions without much follow-up - because I don't think they need it, but people are weird in expecting more), is there any posts themselves that lack this scumhunting that shows scum motivation?

MASS CLAIMING IN A SEMI-OPEN SETUP WITH A MAX OF 2 TOWN PR'S IS NOT PRO-TOWN

This seems oddly familiar. (with something that's only valid day 1 - which at least we're in day 1 when you're yelling at people this game)

Is that IC post personal boilerplate?

Is it bad that I got a read from it? am I not allowed to do that?

You're allowed to get reads from absolutely anything, it's sometimes possible to get them from people's confirm posts. Though I can't get a read from that post, the timing of it does give me slight leans towards scum though, as if she forgot she wanted to do one and then figured doing it later would give towncred.

On meta here is one thing i find to be true.

Only Ever Use Meta To Disprove A Scum Tell

Meaning don't use meta to make someone scummy, only use it to disprove someone being scummy.

Cause usually when you use meta to make scummy it ends up being wrong.

I will catch up on this game in a minute.

That form of meta use sucks as well - players won't correct their play if they keep being cleared by others meta.
Meta is only a tool to ice cases and still then only to be used sparingly.

oh, no way scum would risk talking about reads from an IC post. He'd stray clear away from that if he had any doubts about its legitimacy.

These contradict - if he was scum he'd know the alignment of ffery and therefore the legitimacy would be known to him - whereas doubts may be coming from the town side of it.

TheTrollie - I thought the guy playing your role before you was pretty scummy. Have you reread the thread in more detail like you were saying? If yes, please to be sharing some knowledge so that we can either hang you for being scum or move you to the Probably Townie list.

I don't recall seeing you mention a Morthas suspicion, can you go into detail about why he was scummy?

First of all. Unless she is somewhat obsessive I do not see any reason to be so clear here. It sounds a lot like "I am here to help you in spite of the fact that I

may actually be scum

. No really. don't be mad at the end... and know I will be fair as an IC anyway."

Then later:

IC Intro

I am playing for my team to win, though, so please treat me with the same skepticism in my non-IC posting that you treat everyone else.

Another nod towards awareness that she is not necessarily town. But why? Why admonish us not once but TWICE to remember that she is our advocate at the site in spite of the fact she may not be in the game.

She doth protest too much. It's really that simple.

And I asked her if this was boiler plate to the end of understanding if it had context in this game. A google search for these exact wordsturns up this: No results found for "All of our roles were assigned randomly".

I asked

Is that IC post personal boilerplate? Is it bad that I got a read from it? am I not allowed to do that?

and she responded:

Yeah, it's personal, though I looked at a few IC posts by others in thinking about what to include. Some IC's put in a lot of do this don't do that in theirs, but it doesn't look like this is a crowd that needs to be warned not to self-hammer or hammer someone without a chance to role-claim.

Since this is her first IC I think she just wrote it. It is not boiler plate yet... and I bet we see it change in the future. The fact she did not address the direct question of whether or not I am allowed to get (and discuss) a read from it makes me even more suspicious.

FWIW I am grateful for the fact the site does this in the newbie area and I feel a little bad for getting such a strong scum read from it.

A lot of ICs have the same type of thing in other speeches about the role distbrutions and suchlike. (or maybe it was mods opening posts - the ones I remember don't actually say anything about it (not even my own) - but that doesn't change that it is true facts about her being just as likely scum as the rest of us in distribution stage.

I believe you to be scum. I have many reasons that I will share when the time is right. For now, I will wait patiently while others weigh in and share their opinions.

What say you all? Is fferyllt scum or am I crazy?

Why are you coninsually waiting for other people's opinions?

However cAPSLOCK is still a good vote, he's vote is based on lurking, not based on scumhunting.

Is your own vote just based on a vote based on lurking?
Which is basically actually more useless that capslock's vote.

That's two people who misunderstood my post about bauss. To clarify, bauss was my strongest scum read up to the point where he started making a case on me. He went from indirect to direct stance of attack, though I think his case is mostly rehashing others' comments.

Is he still a scum read?

One thing about epic mafia, though - the games happen fast. I dunno about mass claims. I might hit up a friend who plays there and ask.

I've been playing there recently - they do massclaims via whispers (open communication) in all games that have those enabled, and sometimes others as well.

Is the pace not normal of newbie games? I know someone playing on the main part of the site, his game's moving much faster, but the post numbers in the new section all look lower in comparison.

Game speed is different for every game, will depend on the players and such like. I think we're averaging slightly over a page a day, which I think is the average speed for day 1.
(if you want more posts in a day, then you can either hire some people that post heaps or join larges that often have 5+ pages in a day)

First posts are interesting. having confirmation in-thread kind of dilutes the value of first posts in terms of seeing what a player brings into a game. But, in general town bring themselves, their questions and their desire to figure out other players. Scum bring their preparations and game faces they put on in the QT thread.

That's why you start discussing things earlier when it's confirm in thread - there's nothing stopping anyone from asking questions then. (and it should help you with your anti-RVS stance. - newbie 1297 is an example of getting the game moving early. (and mostly skipping rvs)

I'm talking myself into a scum read.

What do you mean by this?

I guess that's your post for the day, bauss. Would kinda like to get into conversational mode with you at some point in this game.

What are your thoughts about the convo Lynx and I have had about Kueshina and Sikon?

eww not conversational mode again, I'll have to somehow get non-blocked vig powers to actually kill it.

Share your analysis of Trollie with us, and I'll respond with my analysis of Kue?

and then there's this bargaining thing again, which I don't like at all.

UNVOTE: ?VOTE: likeabauss

[cAPSLOCK]

There seems to be plenty of flailing around going on, and I'll be glad to take part. I suppose if people weren't rvsing I'd most likely try to start something...

What made you unable to start something anyway? People RVSing shouldn't stop you from starting something.
Also what makes you happy to flail (aka not progress with the game?)

As I explained earlier the mafia games I come from are not as deep, or self referencial as here. It is common to just start with conversation and vote for non active players. I learned quickly the latter is even considered bad form here. Although as you mentioned in your post JasonWazza is voting for me for not rsving and keeping the vote for my vote for lynx for being non active (which was unvoted by the way).

That said, Ive learned I'll have to be more comfortable with being more agressive early on day one. No problem.

Share your analysis of Trollie with us, and I'll respond with my analysis of Kue?

and then there's this bargaining thing again, which I don't like at all.

This same thing has stuck in my craw as well. He did it with me and was then fairly evasive when I asked for his half of the bagain.

However cAPSLOCK is still a good vote, he's vote is based on lurking, not based on scumhunting.

Is your own vote just based on a vote based on lurking?
Which is basically actually more useless that capslock's vote.

This situation bothers me most of all. The reason I jhave not yet voted for him is I have been trying to make sure that out bad start just didn't rub me the wrong way. But he has accused me of not scumhunting several times, and when I iso his posts I see a player more guilty of it than I. Thus he has made the top of my list.

VOTE: JasonWazza

[cAPSLOCK]

*OT*

Is there a way to change the default editor here? I have a problem when using my tablet with placing the cursor. Usually there is place in the text after which I cannot select anything past it. It's actually sort of a dealbreaker for me here. I will stay in this game, but Ill just have to post from my desktop. If i cant use my tablet it's going to slow me down some as it is my main form of browsing etc.

[RachMarie]

I believe there is a skin available for mobile users. I always use Sepia and I did have issues with my Kindle Fire which is sort of a tablet.

[fferyllt]

Welcome to the game, CheeryDog!

I'll try not to be too annoying with the conversational stuff.

Is he still a scum read?

He's still kinda scummy looking. The tunneling seems overdone and maybe a little theatrical.

I've been playing there recently - they do massclaims via whispers (open communication) in all games that have those enabled, and sometimes others as well.

Thanks.

What do you mean by this?

On my last re-read, I was struck by the strong thread of defensiveness that runs through Kue's posts, and it's pushed my read a little scumward.

eww not conversational mode again, I'll have to somehow get non-blocked vig powers to actually kill it.

I don't think I've ever been misread by so many people in a game as that one. The dead QT embarrassed me.

I'm going to reread your opening post a couple of times with a side of coffee. Some of your reads/implied reads confuse me.

[fferyllt]

*OT*

Is there a way to change the default editor here? I have a problem when using my tablet with placing the cursor. Usually there is place in the text after which I cannot select anything past it. It's actually sort of a dealbreaker for me here. I will stay in this game, but Ill just have to post from my desktop. If i cant use my tablet it's going to slow me down some as it is my main form of browsing etc.

You can edit your board preferences so that MS detects when you are on your tablet or phone and switches automatically to the mobile skin.

There are some issues with the mobile skin, though, so I don't use it. If I need to do a lot of formatting/quoting for a post I wait until I'm at my laptop.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: JasonWazza

TL;DR of this post is

"omg someone gave me a reason to vote jason i better jump at it"

Some day i want to see a game with all the people that refuse to RVS and see how slow it starts off.

Only if they also avoid RQS and bold statements about how they're going to play the game.

The other ways to start the game are less effective (General conversation, RQS, No Lynching for examples that i can think of.) and generally all end up producing a lot of fluff or useless content that is alignment null.

RVS usually produces a heap of fluff itself. (RQS is obviously the worst offender)

Yeah without RQS and everything as well would be interesting

As for the second part, read the words "less effective"

MASS CLAIMING IN A SEMI-OPEN SETUP WITH A MAX OF 2 TOWN PR'S IS NOT PRO-TOWN

This seems oddly familiar. (with something that's only valid day 1 - which at least we're in day 1 when you're yelling at people this game)

I was saying it because it's right at this time.

On meta here is one thing i find to be true.

Only Ever Use Meta To Disprove A Scum Tell

Meaning don't use meta to make someone scummy, only use it to disprove someone being scummy.

Cause usually when you use meta to make scummy it ends up being wrong.

I will catch up on this game in a minute.

That form of meta use sucks as well - players won't correct their play if they keep being cleared by others meta.
Meta is only a tool to ice cases and still then only to be used sparingly.

I mean only use it to rule out something that is a playstyle tell (quick example is Nacho and giving fuck all in reads which is where i had to meta to disprove tells) it really shouldn't be used as a way to make someone scum (as it's likely wrong)

However cAPSLOCK is still a good vote, he's vote is based on lurking, not based on scumhunting.

Is your own vote just based on a vote based on lurking?
Which is basically actually more useless that capslock's vote.
[/quote]

No my vote is based on the fact that he isn't scumhunting.


and cAPSLOCK is like 1,000,000* more scummy now.

[JasonWazza]

Ergh i missed one quote part but is should be obvious where, also cAPSLOCK i am scumhunting, you are not.

just because you say i'm not scumhunting doesn't make it true.

[cAPSLOCK]

VOTE: JasonWazza

TL;DR of this post is "omg someone gave me a reason to vote jason i better jump at it"

and cAPSLOCK is like 1,000,000* more scummy now.

You've pretty much got me dead to rights on your tl;dr. I've felt like you've been acting scummy for a while now but didn't want the fact that you have been on me like a tick since moment 1 color my judgement. Now a new player has come in and noticed the same thing. You voted for me during RVS and have just kept it all the while going "He is not scumhunting !!! He is not scumhunting". Aside from a few other minor involvements in conversations thats the total extent of your game.

It's weak as hell.

Oh, and why am I suddenly 1,000,000* more scummy? Because I am voting for you?

I feel even better about my vote. It might just stick. we will see.

[TheTrollie]

im back...was there a claim while i was gone? i seem to remember reading something on my phone but i forget...

[cAPSLOCK]

Nope

[TheTrollie]

Ok, well ff is town because she is playing very pro town.

[Cheery Dog]

Some of your reads/implied reads confuse me.

Most of them are implied, and I'm not even sure which way with those.

I guess I can actually put them into factual reads so you don't have to try and figure out what I'm implying.
Overall, Jason, Lynx, Kues are town reads. cAPS, trollie and shinox are nullish. You're probably my second suspect with buass obviously being my suspect.

[fferyllt]

There are a few posts missing from this thread. Not too bad compared to some of the faster moving games.

[fferyllt]

I had posted some questions.

Will try to remember them.

@Cheerydog, I agree with you on Lynx. I have Kues leaning scum due to defensiveness. By that reasoning, I should have cAPSLOCK leaning scum as well, but I don't. I'm leaning town on him. If I hadn't meta dived trollie, I'd be null/scum on him, but this looks like his town game to me.

Why do you have jason leaning town? I've thought that aside from his all-but-tunneling cAPSLOCK, he's contributed little in the way of scumhunitng/reads and prior to Thursday or Friday he'd been a lurksack.

@trollie that's got to be the most content-free endorsement of my gameplay that I have ever seen.

[sikon327]

Well, like I said earlier (just before the site went down, I think. Post's gone now.), thanks for everyone's support. I misjudged scheduling and ended up not being able to post until late on Saturday. Felt too tired to give the thread a thorough read just then (I want to make sure I fully understand where we all stand here. can't do that on a tired skim.), next time I pull it up, mafiascum was down. Now I'm just finding it's up again, and once again I can't read everything just yet because I have to get up early tomorrow, because we need to make a 13-hour drive. I know I've been out of action for much longer now than I said I would be, and I'm sorry for that. Thank you all for your understanding. Expect an update sometime tomorrow evening.

[RachMarie]

Vote Count 1.02

cAPSLOCK (2) JasonWazza, imkingdavid
Kueshina (1) Lynx_Shine,
fferyllt (2) Kueshina, likeabauss
Lynx_Shine (1) cAPSLOCK
imkingdavid (1) fferyllt



Not Voting

TheTrollie sikon327




With 9 it takes 5 to lynch


(expired on 2013-07-04 12:46:15)

I added another day to the deadline due to the mini crash and losing some posts.