Newbie 1389 Trouble in River City Game Over Scum win


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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:29 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 624, TheIrishPope wrote:
In post 622, Grimgroove wrote:Yes, you missed some stuff.
Enlighten me, Sensei.
In post 623, fferyllt wrote: I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?

Or do you think I am scum too and scum would vote as a bloc so early?
WIFOM. You see, questions like that do not sit well with me. I do not see the Town motivation behind them. Why would they unvote? I do not know, ask them. Do I think you are scum? Possibly. My reads are shaky at the moment.
I don't think it's WIFOM. They were on me. One of them posted pages worth of walls about how scummy I am. That's a hell of a trajectory to just walk away from if he's scum. I was at L-1. I voted Cheery. They followed. Now Cheery's at L-1.

How the hell was I the momentum-changer at L-1?
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:33 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

So the wagon just developed on its own? You started the wagon, ffery. You are to blame. You poked Cheery into L-1.
You poked Cheery with your stick, ffery.

And your first few lines are part of my suspicion exactly. Why would they follow a scumread on whom they had "pages worth of walls"?
just the tIP
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:35 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 626, TheIrishPope wrote:So the wagon just developed on its own? You started the wagon, ffery. You are to blame. You poked Cheery into L-1.
You poked Cheery with your stick, ffery.

And your first few lines are part of my suspicion exactly. Why would they follow a scumread on whom they had "pages worth of walls"?
Because town players generally don't give a fuck about what their trajectory looks like. They care about finding scum.
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:38 am

Post by fferyllt »

Trajectory happens.

And there is a trajectory in GrimGrove's posts. If he were scum, I think that trajectory would be considerably more developed from a quantity perspective - lots more points along the way, though the connections might be relatively sparse.
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:08 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

"Town players generally..."
WIFOM bats you down.
If Cheery Dog were scum, his trajectory would be significantly different from his current trajectory.
just the tIP
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:13 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 629, TheIrishPope wrote:"Town players generally..."
WIFOM bats you down.
If Cheery Dog were scum, his trajectory would be significantly different from his current trajectory.
How would it differ?
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:16 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

It would be more emotional (not ragey as it is now) and begging. He would plea for everyone's forgiveness and would actually try to keep the spotlight off of himself.
just the tIP
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:32 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 631, TheIrishPope wrote:It would be more emotional (not ragey as it is now) and begging. He would plea for everyone's forgiveness and would actually try to keep the spotlight off of himself.
You have seen him do this as scum?
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:35 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

I haven't meta'd him, but I do remember one Marathon game.
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:17 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 625, fferyllt wrote:
In post 624, TheIrishPope wrote:
In post 622, Grimgroove wrote:Yes, you missed some stuff.
Enlighten me, Sensei.
In post 623, fferyllt wrote: I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?

Or do you think I am scum too and scum would vote as a bloc so early?
WIFOM. You see, questions like that do not sit well with me. I do not see the Town motivation behind them. Why would they unvote? I do not know, ask them. Do I think you are scum? Possibly. My reads are shaky at the moment.
I don't think it's WIFOM. They were on me. One of them posted pages worth of walls about how scummy I am. That's a hell of a trajectory to just walk away from if he's scum. I was at L-1. I voted Cheery.
They followed.
Now Cheery's at L-1.

How the hell was I the momentum-changer at L-1?
I didn't follow :?
You see, and that's where your distancing fails again. Trying to take credit for this Cheery Wagon, while you barely had any arguments developed against him before I called you out on it.

fferyllt-Cheery Dog scumteam? Oh yes.
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:20 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 626, TheIrishPope wrote:So the wagon just developed on its own? You started the wagon, ffery. You are to blame. You poked Cheery into L-1.
You poked Cheery with your stick, ffery.

And your first few lines are part of my suspicion exactly. Why would they follow a scumread on whom they had "pages worth of walls"?

BOTH Cheery Dog and fferyllt were addressed in my pages worth of walls. Hence my vote on him.
Trying to turn this into me sheeping a scumread of mine is a misrep (fferyllt) or a result of lack of involvement in this game (TheIrishPope).
You didn't read my catch-up posts TIP. Shame on you.
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:32 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 634, Grimgroove wrote:
In post 625, fferyllt wrote:
In post 624, TheIrishPope wrote:
In post 622, Grimgroove wrote:Yes, you missed some stuff.
Enlighten me, Sensei.
In post 623, fferyllt wrote: I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?

Or do you think I am scum too and scum would vote as a bloc so early?
WIFOM. You see, questions like that do not sit well with me. I do not see the Town motivation behind them. Why would they unvote? I do not know, ask them. Do I think you are scum? Possibly. My reads are shaky at the moment.
I don't think it's WIFOM. They were on me. One of them posted pages worth of walls about how scummy I am. That's a hell of a trajectory to just walk away from if he's scum. I was at L-1. I voted Cheery.
They followed.
Now Cheery's at L-1.

How the hell was I the momentum-changer at L-1?
I didn't follow :?
You see, and that's where your distancing fails again. Trying to take credit for this Cheery Wagon, while you barely had any arguments developed against him before I called you out on it.

fferyllt-Cheery Dog scumteam? Oh yes.
I didn't look back at the order. I just remember voting and then at least one following vote, which surprised me.
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:34 am

Post by Grimgroove »

It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:36 am

Post by fferyllt »

It was Jason and that makes a sort of sense.

I go back and forth about him being scum. I've meta'd a bunch of games trying to figure out if he's more likely to rage-post/post provocatively as town or as scum. It's a mixed bag. The post that led me to unvote him did seem to come from a town PoV.
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:44 am

Post by fferyllt »

In post 637, Grimgroove wrote:It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.
chronology and motivation correlate sometimes but it's not necessarily a causal thing.

I am still surprised that my wagon dissipated.

It makes me wonder about Cheery's alignment. If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.

Majority wagon mechanics is not my forte. I learned mafia and played for years in a plurality lynch format. One of you guys ought to be able to come up with alternate hypotheses if I'm wrong.
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:51 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 639, fferyllt wrote:
In post 637, Grimgroove wrote:It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.
chronology and motivation correlate sometimes but it's not necessarily a causal thing.
What? Does that even mean anything?
I am still surprised that my wagon dissipated.
You were there when it happened. I stated reasons for changing my vote. And I said from the beginning both you and Cheery Dog were good scum-options. Fake surprise much?
It makes me wonder about Cheery's alignment. If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.
You just called Jason scum, didn't you? Since you just townread me for my trajectory, it's the only logical conclusion.
Why all this between the lines stuff? Because you're about to join the wagon started by your supposed scumread Cheery Dog?
Majority wagon mechanics is not my forte. I learned mafia and played for years in a plurality lynch format. One of you guys ought to be able to come up with alternate hypotheses if I'm wrong.
Wrong about what/who? I have trouble discerning the central message from your post.
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:15 pm

Post by fferyllt »

In post 640, Grimgroove wrote:
In post 639, fferyllt wrote:
In post 637, Grimgroove wrote:It's got nothing to do with the order. Even though I did vote after you did, I never "followed" you in any way and you know it. Yet you failed to clarify this to TIP and instead promoted the idea that you pulled the wagon.
chronology and motivation correlate sometimes but it's not necessarily a causal thing.
What? Does that even mean anything?
heh. One of my hydra partners characterizes my posting style as terse, vague, uncertain and/or paranoid. That's both terse and vague. Follow is a bad word for how that played out.
I am still surprised that my wagon dissipated.
You were there when it happened. I stated reasons for changing my vote. And I said from the beginning both you and Cheery Dog were good scum-options. Fake surprise much?
No, not fake. I've been kind of frozen into a stance for the last week or so because the game kind of stagnated. Any fresh input at all can change that stance, and did.

If the wagon fades off Cheery, it will mostly likely land on me again. I think my posts this game day make it pretty clear why I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. But, I'd like for town to do a hard-reset after my flip and not just proceed to "next on the list".
It makes me wonder about Cheery's alignment. If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.
You just called Jason scum, didn't you? Since you just townread me for my trajectory, it's the only logical conclusion.
Jason is maybe scum, yes. But I think you missed the key idea in that sentence. "one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town" He being Cheery. My wagon may have faded too fast to take advantage of. But the Cheery wagon has been sitting stagnant for a while, which bolsters my scum read of him.

I'm highly unlikely to vote Jason today unless my own read on Cheery changes. And the wagon's stagnancy goes against a read change.
Why all this between the lines stuff? Because you're about to join the wagon started by your supposed scumread Cheery Dog?
It's how I post. My thoughts usually look like a fairly straight line from this side of my keyboard.
Majority wagon mechanics is not my forte. I learned mafia and played for years in a plurality lynch format. One of you guys ought to be able to come up with alternate hypotheses if I'm wrong.
Wrong about what/who? I have trouble discerning the central message from your post.
This: Would the wagon stagnate this way if Cheery is town and zero to 1 scum are currently on it?
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:36 pm

Post by Nobody Special »

Votecount 2.07
(unchanged)


L-1 :right: Cheery Dog - 3 - fferyllt, Grimgroove, JasonWazza
fferyllt - 1 - TheIrishPope
JasonWazza - 1 - Cheery Dog

Not Voting: TheTrollie, Lynx_Shine


With 7 it takes 4 to lynch


Deadline is in (expired on 2013-07-29 19:50:21)
....what?



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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:01 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

fferyllt, if Cheery Dog is scum, you think his scumpartner is not on his wagon right now?
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:17 am

Post by Cheery Dog »

In post 614, Grimgroove wrote: And if Cheery Dog truly cared about arguments, he would have responded to mine in a more satisfactory way.

The guy is scum people. Seriously.
"Satisfactory way" That's bloody clever isn't it. You know when you're tunneling that will never happen.

I'm satisfied with my responses to what arguments you've actually brought forth for me to argue against.
In post 623, fferyllt wrote: I was at L-1, wasn't I? Why would they move off me if they are scum?
You never got to L-1, I would have, but not willing when TIP's slot was MIA.
In post 631, TheIrishPope wrote:It would be more emotional (not ragey as it is now) and begging. He would plea for everyone's forgiveness and would actually try to keep the spotlight off of himself.
Marathon's are a completely different kettle of fish. While I think the only time I've been at L-1 as scum was my first scum game in (3p lylo), I think if you're trying to base stuff on what I'm like, meta from actual games would be better.
In post 639, fferyllt wrote: If neither you nor Jason are scum then I think one of the wagons should have gone through if he's town. And mine should have too, though maybe it collapsed too quickly.
The people that can actually push my lynch through have all been inactive, and I don't think any of them are that bad.
Though both Lynx and Trollie did mention agreeing with Grim's case apparently.
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:28 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 644, Cheery Dog wrote:
In post 614, Grimgroove wrote: And if Cheery Dog truly cared about arguments, he would have responded to mine in a more satisfactory way.

The guy is scum people. Seriously.
"Satisfactory way" That's bloody clever isn't it. You know when you're tunneling that will never happen.
Putting the cart in front of the horse there. The tunneling will not stop simply because you don't give a good answer. To anything.
Calling this "clever" again implies you suspect scummy intentions from my part, but you NEVER fully called me out, NEVER formulated arguments against me. If you would be town truly thinking I'm tunneling scum trying to go for a mislynch, you would do more than this ^. You're more worried about my credibility than about my alignment.
I'm satisfied with my responses to what arguments you've actually brought forth for me to argue against.
That goes without saying. If I can be bothered I'll list the posts where I addressed you, but where you did not respond to the allegations by evading them.
But right now I can't be bothered, you're just scum making me go through a hassle and pulling up smokescreens, but if people would just re-read what has been happening and what I've been saying and they'll see for themselves. You're making false implications that I don't have much against you, and that the little I do have against you has been dealt with properly by you. This could not be further away from the truth.
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:53 am

Post by Cheery Dog »

In post 645, Grimgroove wrote: Putting the cart in front of the horse there. The tunneling will not stop simply because you don't give a good answer. To anything.
Calling this "clever" again implies you suspect scummy intentions from my part, but you NEVER fully called me out, NEVER formulated arguments against me. If you would be town truly thinking I'm tunneling scum trying to go for a mislynch, you would do more than this ^. You're more worried about my credibility than about my alignment.
Well when you've got me lined up as "Scum", I'm not going to believe you're credible.

I still do think you're possibly scum with the statements I made at the start of the day about you calling the day-1 lynch obv town as buying town-credit. I am happy leaving that for today though, with what may happen tonight and that Jason actually avoiding stating reasons other than sheeping ofr his voting. (Plus the horrible vote staying on capslock day 1)
In post 645, Grimgroove wrote:That goes without saying. If I can be bothered I'll list the posts where I addressed you, but where you did not respond to the allegations by evading them.
But right now I can't be bothered, you're just scum making me go through a hassle and pulling up smokescreens, but if people would just re-read what has been happening and what I've been saying and they'll see for themselves. You're making false implications that I don't have much against you, and that the little I do have against you has been dealt with properly by you. This could not be further away from the truth.
They can't be false when you still don't actually have anything, there's a page of posts which is apparently your "Case" - but there's about as much actual stuff there as my replace in post.
Plus the whatever the heck you were inventing with my posts either side of the night in regards to capslock.
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:57 am

Post by JasonWazza »

In post 646, Cheery Dog wrote: I still do think you're possibly scum with the statements I made at the start of the day about you calling the day-1 lynch obv town as buying town-credit. I am happy leaving that for today though, with what may happen tonight and that Jason actually avoiding stating reasons other than sheeping ofr his voting. (Plus the horrible vote staying on capslock day 1)
Get Off Your Fucking High Horse.

You put in the effort to ACTUALLY address GrimGrooves case, then i will put in the effort to look back through to see which bits convinced me most.

Otherwise keep deflecting scum.
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:11 am

Post by TheIrishPope »

Cheery Dog, link me to your best scum game please.
just the tIP
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:28 am

Post by Cheery Dog »

In post 648, TheIrishPope wrote:Cheery Dog, link me to your best scum game please.
In terms of how I was getting read my players, I think it would be http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23752
(but you may as well go through them all, there's only 4 of them)
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