Newbie 1419 - GAME OVER

[SXTLHGaiden]

It not pressure if you tell him its pressure.

[Brian Skies]

It not pressure if you tell him its pressure.

Pretty sure he would have already known considering Shiidaji asked me to do it.

[Brian Skies]

Also, now that Nacho voiced his opinion, I think it is highly unlikely Verbs is teamed up with M-M. Verbs is pushing way too hard.

As for Verbs and Titus, I think it's possible but difficult to read. They have opposite stances on M-M, but they could be avoiding the "buddying" tell (which is completely useless imo).




Also, it's super early in the morning as I'm making these posts and I'm really tired. I'll try to process all the information I just absorbed more thoroughly when I get the chance. (Once again, I really am new to this game and am learning/absorbing/analyzing as I go.)

I'll update my reads as well.

[Amrun]

VC 1.3

(2) mail-mi - Shiidaji, Brian Skies
(2) Verbs - Nachomamma8, SXTLHGaiden
(1) Brian Skies - JKMatthews
(1) Nachomamma8 - notscience
(1) notscience - Titus
(1) Titus - Verbs


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Not Voting: mail-mi


V/LA:

Deadline: Tuesday, August 27, 12pm EDT

Spoiler: Vote History

SXTLHGaiden

- notscience > mail-mi > Verbs

Shiidaji

Medoner

- mail-mi

Verbs

- Titus

mail-mi

- mail-mi > unvote

Brian Skies

advocatus

- Medoner > unvote > mail-mi

JKMatthews

- mail-mi > Titus > Brian Skies

Titus

- JKMatthews > notscience

notscience

- Nachomamma8 > Titus > Nachomamma8

Nachomamma8

- Verbs

If you spot any mistakes, please let me know.

[Verbs]

Are you listing the gambit's effects in regards to the town, to M-M, or to the mafia (taking into consideration whether or not M-M is indeed mafia)? Because I don't think having the pressure being almost entirely on M-M benefits the mafia if he is indeed scum. Also, people taking sides can be both beneficial and dangerous depending on how you look at it.

Sorry for complicating this for you, but I like to look at things in shades of grey rather than black or white.

positive = helps town, negative = helps scum. i was thinking that the pressure being on mail helps mafia because his partner is able to skate by.

In 97 your wording implied that there was

no

town benefit to the gambit - why did this change?

i was thinking about the things that it has actually done to the game so far. i cannot say that it hasn't created discussion looking at the way in which this game has played out so far... our whole thread is pretty much centered around this issue. i was originally thinking it (mail's gambit) doesn't benefit the town because it doesn't have a linear path to follow. what i mean by that is that when you wagon someone, it follows a linear path by putting pressure on that person. so my original assumption was that if mail knows that he is town, wouldn't it be a waste of time to pressure yourself because where would it be going. however, im seeing that just by an issue being a point of contention it has value in this game because we can read into things.

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

A.

How is bringing all the pressure on mail a good thing for mafia?

B.

How does it allow scum avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit when you can call out people for having safe/easy opinions?

C.

The third negative is true but I don't see how M-M's posts accomplish that purpose at all if he is scum.

a. there are two mafia in the game right now. assuming that mail is one of them, this means that there is a lot less pressure on his ally due to the fact that mail is so high up on peoples radar.
b. how do you differentiate between a townie with a safe opinion on the gambit and scum with the same?
c. surviving such a controversial opening has the direct impact of painting mail's future actions in a different light. in life we have opinions on people by taking into account all the information that we know about them and this can influence us, even inadvertently. if mail gets past this with little suspicion, it can make slips that are not as big/obvious seem smaller/less significant in the later game.

[notscience]

I wasn't planning on responding. Did you expect me to?

No

But I love how it made Shii respond

[Titus]

@Shinniji, I wasn't sure it notscience was being an opportunist at 73. If he could articulate his reasons for voting

and be genuine

, I would have moved on. Insread, he misreps me by adding buddying language.

Verbs has also shrouded mm's gambit in wifom. That isn't good. Almost anything can be argued as protown or scummy using wifom. I don't like that.

Brian does the same sort of attitude in 123 and 124. Notice one of the reasons isn't mm is scum. Then Brian's last post is a total fencesitter. He doesn't want to make a decision.

Only two of Brian/notscience/Verbs can scum but I don't know which. Look at what happened when I tried to suggest I had a leaning town read. That tells me scum is pushing this hard.

I am happy with my ns vote due to the misrep.

[Shiidaji]

He clearly isn't responding to the pressure I'm totally placing on him by nakedvoting him because he's totally posted since said vote

Why are you worried about votes on Nacho's slot?

I'm not worried, you're just being useless when you could be being useful. Nacho posted after the vote.

mail-verbs doesn't make much sense as a scumteam. Titus-Verbs would make a little more sense, but

I have a townread on Titus at the moment

so I don't favor it much.

From what?
-
@Brian and Nacho, consider this:
Verbs is pushing for a lynch of Titus. Meanwhile, he's been actively pushing suspicion on Mail as well, in essentially all of his posts through 111. In 85 he even mentions Mail is a bigger scumread, yet he retains his initial rvs vote on Titus all the way throughout. I feel this shows a split motivation, as town!Verbs should logically have his stronger scumreads as a higher priority for votes, over his less-explained weaker ones. The disconnect here could mean that scum!Mail is interacting with a buddy while throwing attention elsewhere at the same time, or bussing.
Thinking about it again though, I mentioned buddy associations earlier, but we're still in a relatively early stage of the game, so that can be sussed out later. I can see the above being a sensible relational tell from either of Verbs+Titus/Mail, but I need to hear more from Mail to solidify my opinion of him.

[Shiidaji]

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

Reading through this again, I dislike how quantified the logic is here. Did you think through these and say to yourself 'Okay, this and this makes it town, but this, this and this makes it scummy, they are all equally valued in terms of scummyness/townyness.'?
Scumtells and towntells aren't things you can measure up on a scale that gets tipped over when there's a majority on one side, is what I'm saying.

[Titus]

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

Reading through this again, I dislike how quantified the logic is here. Did you think through these and say to yourself 'Okay, this and this makes it town, but this, this and this makes it scummy, they are all equally valued in terms of scummyness/townyness.'?
Scumtells and towntells aren't things you can measure up on a scale that gets tipped over when there's a majority on one side, is what I'm saying.

Agreed. Verbs is also using it in a manner to push a WIFOM result. I don't like that. To me, mm's actions seem to be town and the paranoia regarding me stating that is extensive. Why?

[notscience]

Shii, you don't know how I work.

I'm not a clear, concise, detailed and methodical person

I wing things

I like meta

Titus is just voteparking and 2/3 of his scumreads are shit

And bullshit that's not genuine, I stated how

I

interpreted it. Your vote on me is a shitvote and probably there to stay off leading wagons.

Verbs/Titus scumteam, wrap it up and ship it to grandma.

[Brian Skies]

Verbs has also shrouded mm's gambit in wifom. That isn't good. Almost anything can be argued as protown or scummy using wifom. I don't like that.

Brian does the same sort of attitude in 123 and 124. Notice one of the reasons isn't mm is scum. Then Brian's last post is a total fencesitter. He doesn't want to make a decision.

Only two of Brian/notscience/Verbs can scum but I don't know which. Look at what happened when I tried to suggest I had a leaning town read. That tells me scum is pushing this hard.

Where's the WIFOM in my post? I had just read an article based on the RVS when I noticed Nacho's post. It was early in the morning and I was tired (not a good time to try to clearly analyze things), so all I did was report what I read and my initial reactions. I'll post the link : http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710. And it's found in letterGaiden's first game, which I already mentioned.

As far as me fencesitting, how is that different from the way I've been playing all game? I held my vote early because I was confused as heck as to what was going on. Then I held my vote because I didn't want a quick mislynch on a possible town (which is a bad move for town).

I'm an inexperienced player. I want to make decisions, but not uninformed decisions. And trying to get all the information I can is the best thing I can do for town right now.

[Brian Skies]

Shii, you don't know how I work.

I'm not a clear, concise, detailed and methodical person

I wing things

I like meta

Titus is just voteparking and 2/3 of his scumreads are shit

And bullshit that's not genuine, I stated how

I

interpreted it. Your vote on me is a shitvote and probably there to stay off leading wagons.

Verbs/Titus scumteam, wrap it up and ship it to grandma.

I'm pretty much governed by logic, so you are the closest thing to my mortal enemy in this game. XD

[Titus]

@Brian/NS I am governed by logic as well. Which means that either I will get over this perceived deception by Brian relatively quickly, or I'll have two mortal enemies this game.

In 123, you're saying "I'm really starting to think M-M did a protown gambit" but that you're still voting him to pressure him and get more content. You also say that your suspicious of his inactivity and motivation. There's a clear logical disconnenct between 123 and 124. That's what bothers me so much. Take a position, work it through. Take the other position work it through. Waffling within that period WILL make me suspicious.

[notscience]

That sounds like coaching

[Titus]

NS, why does it sound like I'm coaching my scumread? I'm just answering his question.

[notscience]

Waffling within that period WILL make me suspicious.

[Titus]

That's not coaching. That is just me stating something matter of factly. Waffling rapidly will make me suspicious. Within 2 posts is by definition rapid.

[notscience]

Why would you bother saying that though?

[JKMatthews]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Verbs

Post 111 (the infamous "3 > 2" post) is posted entirely from the assumption that m-m is town, yet tries to paint m-m as scum for it. Also the post analyses whether or not the gambit is good for town, not whether or not it comes from a scummy mindset.
Verbs is scum, let's lynch.

[Titus]

Why would you bother saying that though?

Establishing a clear train of thought and logical behavior helps the rest of the town interpret my actions.

[Titus]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Verbs

Post 111 (the infamous "3 > 2" post) is posted entirely from the assumption that m-m is town, yet tries to paint m-m as scum for it. Also the post analyses whether or not the gambit is good for town, not whether or not it comes from a scummy mindset.
Verbs is scum, let's lynch.

I like this. Verbs had already pinged my radar.

VOTE: Verbs

[SXTLHGaiden]

If i'm not mistaken, that puts him at L-1 right?

[Titus]

That is accurate. I forgot about your vote. Otherwise, I would have mentioned that.

Verbs is at L-1

[SXTLHGaiden]

I'll this just in case. Don't just vote verbs. Please declare intent and allow him to make a case. Early mislynches will only serve to hurt us in the long run.