Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Tammy]

Tammy, I brought up points against Generic. What do you think of those points?

I think that you believe those points, and after nacho gave his reasons for town reading you, I think you're more likely to be town.

But I want to see how generic interacts with people not you or related to you because right now I can't tell if he's scum trying to discredit you or town who is getting more and more flustered that his mentee is scum reading him and flailing and striking out at anyone for agreeing with you.

[Tammy]

And it was a stupid push. Extended bickerfests that end up not being productive are bad for town. They give scum a place to hide, make people take sides for non alignment based reasons, and can cause apathy in town. All bad for town. Trying to paint me as suspicious for wanting it to come to an end because it was becoming unproductive struck me as really off. It still does.

*shrug* Kay then. They make people take sides for non alignment based reasons?? How so...

I've already said this. People will end up choosing to side with whom their more sympathetic or against who annoys them more. They'll then start to view that as a reason for their scum town read. If you look at the red wedding game, generic and metal sonic got into a fight day one. Metal sonic got on people's nerves and though he made a case on generic and generic was scum, they actively discounted his case and lynched metal sonic instead. And a large part of that was because they were just annoyed. In good v evil, I got into a large two week fight with zdenek. People took sides and he almost got lynched day one; we were both town.

Arguments are going to happen, and you can get good information from arguments, but there's a point when it should stop because it consumes the thread. And that point was a few pages ago, and I'm having serious issues with anyone thinking it should actually be prolonged.

I don't know why anyone would ever want me dead. I'm a fucking sweetheart.

Innocent blah-blah - not buying it. Don't you talk to me like that. Tell that "I'M A SWEETIE PIE" to the people in 501 Stacking the Deck. Puh-leez. I don't trust you with a ten-foot pole.

I am a sweetie pie. Even was then.

I do really love this paranoia, but my scum game is pretty poor.

You don't have to take my word for it. Anyone who really knows my town game will be able to point out this being it, and besides my eventual night kill will dispel all paranoia.

[Llamarble]

Sorry guys, I wasn't very sentient this weekend. Catching up.

[Llamarble]

At the very least, prove your worth. You say you need "4 more votes" but don't you really only need 3?
Either way, AtE is spewing from your posts, at least in my eyes. And, tbh, i'm not sure why people even use it. i mean, isn't it something people only do when grasping at straws. You make it seem like your lynch is inevitable when it is fact not. We still have nearly 2 weeks to sort this out, yet you have already resigned yourself to this fate. It's sad that a newbie like me has to tell you to stop the damn defeatist attitude. I see you have 2 options here.
1. Vote yourself.
2. Cut the crap and actually start scum hunting.

This guy probably isn't scum unless the guy he's talking about is. And even then this would still be a kinda towny.

[Tammy]

Llamarble - you don't have any opinion on anything that came before? Do you have an opinion on the guy he's talking about.

[Llamarble]

I am not claiming I

always

spot you as scum, but I am claiming that I've never read you as scum, when you are town. That doesn't mean I havn't read you as town when you were scum, because I have like, Nishi's game.

I was kinda winding up to vote mara, but the above isn't very common from scum

[Llamarble]

I skimmed and now am ISOing some folks; I promise I'll increase in usefulness as the day goes on.

[Shadoweh]

I haven't finished rereading yet, but Desperado what is your problem with me and what about anything makes it sound like I'm scum with Generic? It's neat that you brought up that quote because I have no idea where your pot shots at me are coming from. I was going to say something already when I noticed you left me out of the mystical 'townblock' (which is a concept that needs to die) but you've upgraded it to 'so why aren't you voting me' territory.

Although speaking of Pillboy, as weird as you're beinbg, I don't want to vote you. I get alot of flack for 'using AtE' too when I'm just saying how I feel. I'm telling you that playing like everyone else is the enemy is going to get you lynched, and from my viewpoint that would be a waste for all of us.

[Shadoweh]

Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.

In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:

"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."

Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?

I think the circumstances of this game are different, but if you don't mind, I'd rather wait for Shadoweh to respond to this first before I go into more detail on what I see.

This game started off weird for me tbh. I don't care about voting for the sake of voting, I'd rather pursue the right targets. If I put a vote down seriously you'll know I think that person is scum.

[Empire]

Just got back from hanging out with Mina (it was fun!), will do a full catch-up tomorrow and the Generic meta report. Couple of things before I go to bed:

@Llamarble:

1) About Gaiden, I'm not seeing what you're seeing at all. I found that post full of posturing and the timing of both that post and the preceding very problematic. Why can Gaiden only be scum with Generic?
2) Can you elaborate on what you liked about the Marangal post you quoted?

P-edit: Ok, Desperado, I'll answer your question tomorrow when I wake up.

[Shadoweh]

I want you to answer me on something. Who has been sucking up to who in this game? (be as detailed as possible)

Other then Tammy making me feel good for knowing what a town her looks like, I wouldn't say anyone else is that I've seen. The reply you quoted there is me saying that Nacho trolling Empire isn't 'sucking up'. Why are you asking me about something I don't think is happening? Reading further says I should quality my Tammy comment with saying I don't think she's scum for it, since you appear to have a bad case of the Tammykilledmes.

[Llamarble]

Scum generally like when town are demoralized because it makes them play worse, so I find peptalks a decent towntell.
Timing I don't have a grip on yet, but I'll try and find a better chunk of time tomorrow.

For some reason I think that town talk about their reading success rate on a given player more often than scum, but maybe that's crazy.

I sound like scum so far don't I >_>

I guess my town not fully engaged game is kinda similar to my scumgame.
Anyhow I'll make myself useful soon

[PeaceBringer]

another new acronym to me ISO=?

[TheGarantula]

If you look at the top of a post there's a link that says "ISO". Clicking that let's you look at all of a single user's posts for the game.

[PeaceBringer]

thanks gar, that is a big help...

[TheGarantula]

Are you being sarcastic? That's what it means.

[TheGarantula]

I think Generic needs to claim. I believe he is being overly defensive and reactive for the circumstances.

Why does being reactive and defensive make him scum? Town gets flustered too.

[PeaceBringer]

Are you being sarcastic? That's what it means.

no, that was sincenre. If sarcastic it might have included

[PeaceBringer]

I think Generic needs to claim. I believe he is being overly defensive and reactive for the circumstances.

Why does being reactive and defensive make him scum? Town gets flustered too.

It is the essence of his engagement and what he is doing. Yes, there is a prospect he is doing it as town, but does not come off that way to me. When you spend a lot of time trying to discredit someone's viewpoint as he did with a fullblown OMGUS and references to past meta regarding relationships and other things it is suspect. If there is reactivity there is a reason for it. He engaged an emotional appeal in referencing "life stress" to explain his behavior.

[PeaceBringer]

Are you being sarcastic? That's what it means.

no, that was sincenre. If sarcastic it might have included

I probably should have included

[Bert]

I don't like Shadoweh so far

what do you all think of him/her?

[Generic]

At peace bringer:

You asked in post 191,

please indicate one statement I have made where I distorted "Who" I said things to. Please.

What I actually said which you quoted in that post was,

But you keep distorting who I said things to pb, is that deliberate?

And mara also answered this for me do I will quote her to probe it wasnt just me who saw you misremember WHO started the back referencing of another site which you called me on as part of your case.

Peace, Generic isn't scum because of his "building up cred". He's right, I was the first to bring up our relationship, people just picked up on him mentioning about it first but, there are several other reasons for why he's scum that doesn't have to do with that

Someone asked me to claim, so be it:

Im a Servant of the Wingate family. My master has been killed and I've been sealed in the mansion, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Basically vanilla town, win condition of winning when there are no threat to town remaining.

No help in turning opinion on me because A. It's not a power role, and B. the mod helpfully out it as an example in the opening post, so I'm likely to get accused of lying.

Have only read bits do haven't seem any specifically aimed at me stuff. No point in replacing out cos why should someone else have to sub in to this. But I am getting no enjoyment out if this game so will go through the motions until I'm lynched, cos everything I say is bring pointed out as a scum tactic do confbias has taken over...

Don't like peacebringers posts cos he has resorted to just asking for expressions to be explained without then following up with some analysis in anyone. So feels like posting (albeit I'm sure genuine curiosity) to seem active.

Tammy, desperado, bert, shadoweh because in my skimming they have shown some nice measured anslysis. Even though some think I'm mafia, no confbias.
Like garantula but that's biased because he has been defensive of me.

Llarmable... I have a negative feeling towards, but again I think that's simply bias given my mood at present so I am simply see them as null right now, hopefully the more they post the more I will see the true person.

That's it for now. Will check back later. If I missed any questions to me can you prod me the post I need to read or restate the question? Will answer everything when I post again. Many thanks.

[Bert]

Scum generally like when town are demoralized because it makes them play worse, so I find peptalks a decent towntell.
Timing I don't have a grip on yet, but I'll try and find a better chunk of time tomorrow.

For some reason I think that town talk about their reading success rate on a given player more often than scum, but maybe that's crazy.

I sound like scum so far don't I >_>

I guess my town not fully engaged game is kinda similar to my scumgame.
Anyhow I'll make myself useful soon

I actually thought you were a newb after reading your post, and then I realized you aren't.

Why are you admitting to us that your town game when you're not IN IT can be similar to your scumgame. You're telling us this why? Why should we spare you

[Bert]

This game started off weird for me tbh. I don't care about voting for the sake of voting, I'd rather pursue the right targets. If I put a vote down seriously you'll know I think that person is scum.

And you believe your votes are always for the pursuit of the "right targets"?

Also, can people please stop using hypocrisy as a scumtell? It's not even remotely close to being one given that people are far less likely to be objective/impartial about their own actions than they are about other people's.

Also also, Desperado's town bloc looks solid except I'd swap Generic for Shadoweh.

Also also also, I was gonna neatly lay out why you guys should move over to Gaiden but Desperado beat me to it.

P-edit: Alright, well, I have him scheduled for a meta dive when I get more time because I personally found him suspicious in how he's constructed his posts against Marangal/Nacho in that way where he doesn't seem at all curious about their alignments but just wants to make them look as bad as possible to get them strung up. But I have a feeling this might be more of a playstyle or a site meta language barrier issue given that he plays mostly off-site in places like MTGS so I want to look into his games here to compare how he plays as both alignments.

Huh? Have you done this meta-dive yet that you just pretty much promised us?

"YALL SHOULD MOVE TO GAIDEN, HE'S ON MY SCUMLIST, but you know maybe you shouldn't because I need to compare how he/she is as both alignments"

Please do better than this....

[Generic]

Missed this from empire:

@Generic: Please answer the following:
1) Why is there a high correlation between {your suspects} and {people who suspect you}?
2) In #63, you say you find some of my early posts forced. However, in #170, you make an argument that necessarily assumes that I am town as a basis for your scumread on Nacho despite the fact that I had only posted something tantamount to a prod dodge since then. What changed?

On point 2 first, you got that wrong. My scum read on nacho incorporated a point that HE flipped from a scum read on you to a town read on you after just a prod dodge post. I never called you town during that entire event.

On point 1, I suspected mara FIRST, so her OMGUS wouldn't correlate fairly in that comment. Nacho I didn't have a scum read on when we started out arguing but the dirty tactics I highlighted at the time convinced me otherwise. Shadoweh leapt on my issues with occurrences around you before I had even mentioned anyone which felt like a guilty conscience. When they calmed down their posts were far mor pro town yet still suspecting me and I pointed that out.

So no, the correlation isn't what you claim it is. Plus right now I only have two strong scum reads and a wagon of at least 4 votes. You went back to null with you engaging more in everything.