A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Cephrir]

vote andrius

Why?

[kanyeknowsbest]

OH. That makes a lot of sense.

NULL
kanye
Zdenek
Tammy
Peacebringer
Goat
Thor
mollie
Syryana

NULL
kanye

mollie

Zdenek
Tammy
Peacebringer
Goat
Thor
Syryana

what a ludicrously pointless post. i give you +20.5 volkan scum points 4 that give me one moment to load up my spread sheet and keep every1 appraised of the running totals here

[kanyeknowsbest]

vote andrius

Why?

pretended 2 be an idiot dog. his performance was lacking in comparison 2 such greats as tierce and vi

also have you even looked @ this? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[Cephrir]

It's no more pointless than saying "I think post X is townie"

I have now and my opinion has not changed

[kanyeknowsbest]

the issue i take is with the fact that you felt you needed to conjure up a before and after list and show for us a minor adjustment. it reads to me like scum making sure to show town that he is engaging w. the game and adjusting reads and see these are what my reads are.

[Cephrir]

I guess I can understand that. It's a more meaningful shift for me than it would seem to be for anyone looking at the list.

[Alfred Borden]

Slowly getting through the thread and there's already a lot of stuff I want to respond to so I'm breaking this up into chunks.

My vote is pretty awesome right where it is - even if you think Benmage is town what makes that read so awesome as to make my vote suck?
His case on me is pretty nonexistent for the strength of it, easily justifying my reaction to it.

What do you see that I'm missing?

My read on Benmage is very largely meta based. If you have the time, compare his play in /in-vitational 12 with his play in The Wire and it's like night and day. As town, he can get very abrasive and combative and he's definitely not shy about talking how he feels he's above the game. You'll also get some long droughts of inactivity from him. As scum, it's the opposite - he generally tries to tone down his ego, acts a lot friendlier/more cooperatively and just cares way more about his image. He also has a belief that lurking as scum is an atrocity to the game of Mafia (see; middle of this post), so seeing less engagement from him is a sign that he's probably town. The fact that's come in and not really engaged with a big portion of the game (he still hasn't read the first parts of it according to him), flipped out about the level of play in this game (#536), and just generally has been abrasive here forms the basis for my townread (and it's gotten stronger after seeing posts like #576).

Do I think his "case" on you is weak? Yeah, if only because I know you'd do what he's complaining about regardless of alignment. Do I think he's scum for it? Absolutely not. Also, him pushing it with a lot of "strength" is more an element of his personality/playstyle I'd say than anything else.

Information useful to you: he's a scum-preference type. He as scum is image-conscious; a few things that he did that didn't seem very concerned in cultivating image were #290, after Goat was dangling a possible townread in from of him if he behaved like a good boy and he said "I dunno why the hell you were scumreading me before but :hitoshrug:" instead of keeping up his old momentum. His interactions with us feel decently smooth so far (particularly calling us out for a weak Amrun case), and I've liked his lines of questioning so far.
[...]
I expect a slow start from him so following the grain early on isn't necessarily scummy, if that makes sense.
[...]
His 007 post killed me so I'll probably not lynch him yet. I do have other reasons for him being town lately, but I'd rather let you guys sort him out on your own because the wagon isn't that bad and it'd be nice to have somebody check my work since ooba is competent as scum. Still feels town, though. I would pay special attention to the end of #513, though; that was pretty cool.

If Cephrir is the scum preference type, then I definitely am putting him on the "to meta" list because it's hard for me to sort out dudes like that (it took me eons to get a decent grasp of RedCoyote's meta and I don't feel all that confident that I do even now). You're right about #290 but if he's good at scum, doesn't that seem like it's easy to fake? Fair point about the "following the grain bit" but I need to double check these two points with some metadiving.

I've put ooba on the "to meta" list as well, I should be able to do both of them before deadline but I might not get into some of the others I've wanted to like quadz and Amrun. The 007 post made me lose my shit laughing but I don't really find the end of #513 particularly townish.

I am removing alfred from the nice pile. alfred, mebbe you can explain what tammy was asking in that post cos I have no fucking idea. I mean I asked goat if he was town yeah? how did that turn into me dismissing his saying he was town? idgi

It's very simple: Tammy can correct me if I'm wrong but she's asking in #431 why you aren't considering Goat's read on quadz if you find them to be an asset to the town. I thought this was important because your quadz vote was really weird in light of that and in light of #345 too (e.g., you go from saying you feel better about him to voting him and I didn't really get why).

[elleheathen]

Syr. I spent far too long trying to lip-read this.


@Thor - Spoilered because length

Spoiler:

Well, you plainly stated you were voting with gut after I pointed out your case was meaningless dribble.
Why waste our time if this was the case?

Actually, I stated it before and had to reiterate it after because you chose to ignore it the first time. See here:

Before:

Yes, completely out-there speculation. No, probably not as easy as all that. Yes, good probability that I'm wrong. And yes, mostly gut. Take it with a grain of salt, if you like.

After:

I'm going to precursor this with:

I never stated nor pretended that this was some big case on you nor tried to present it as such. I never implied it was some strong case at all - and even went so far as to belittle what information it is that makes me think you're scum by saying that it's mostly just speculation and gut.

I wasn't aware that gut reads were a waste of everyone's time.

Next.

You also ignored the plethora of other roles I pointed out could find me as scum,

First, how did I ignore this

plethora

of other roles when I address them all here, in my post, with your post include IN that post:

Oh, also, and in correcting you if you're wrong - with a Miller claim the following roles can all provide rather serious evidence about my alignment; gunsmith, role cop, faction cop, tracker, follower.
Neither Watcher or Voyuer can but...then again, they can't do so for anyone they target...though I suppose if they watched or Voyeured someone *I* targeted, then, again, they would help identify my alignment (since, y'know, Thor would have lied...y'know).
Flavor cop wouldn't help until and if I was forced to nameclaim...also known as 'the only way a Flavor Cop ever helps in a uPick' so it's meaningless because he's as effective versus me as versus anyone.

Gunsmith - in this case, likely flavored something like swordsmith - could not confirm you as town. They could confirm that you had a weapon and confirm that you lied about your role should you be found with a sword but not as town.
A role cop - would tell me your

role

, not your

alignment

and your

role

isn't indicative of your

alignment

.
A faction cop - is basically just a cop for their respective multiball faction - and I'm unclear whether this would play out the same result as a regular cop for a miller of that faction.
A tracker and follower - both could confirm that you targetted someone, which could easily be avoided by inviting everyone to target you tonight and

not targetting anyone tonight

.
A flavor cop - wouldn't help even if you were forced to claim as it gives us your flavor name, which doesn't prove your

alignment

.

Yes. I left out Voyeur and Watcher. Because your explanation of them was sufficient, and they were not roles that could target YOU and learn anything from YOU.

and also how the rolecop one would force you to totally reinvent your case if it came up 'Miller'.

And once again. Miller does not mean that you are town.

Meanwhile, again ignoring how if I am Scum why I would clarify how many roles my power specifically wouldn't work against...y'know, meaning that those powers are free to check me out at their leisure and I can't use a 'but...Miller!' defense on them.

Initially, you don't. You imply that you can be proven town by any investigative non-regular cop role. This is not true - I question it. You list the ones that can prove you town - I list the flaws in this claim because only one (gunsmith) could prove that you are not a Miller. Which goes back to Miller not necessarily being town.

Claim: Innocent Child Miller - Nope. That's me taking that as you trying to convince people that you're somehow conftown, innocent child - when you're not conftown, innocent child and can't be proven conftown innocent child. K.

You are aware that Innocent Child is a PR and that you have agreed that you didn't think I was claiming it...and then whined that I claimed it...right?

If the extent of your issue is that I claimed I was conf. town...that's at least vaguely defensible because people d seem to take issue with that...even though I wasn't aware I had mind control powers based on whatever I wrote, but that has nothing to do with an Innocent Child claim...right?

No. It's that you're insinuating that you are conftown/innocent child effect because you're Miller but Miller does not guarantee that you are town, let alone that you are conftown and/or should be treated as though you're innocent child.

While you stick by your Miller claim - you keep avoiding the fact that numerous times it has been said that roles come before alignments and that being a Miller does not mean you're town.

So. I believe that you might very well be a Miller given your stance on it.

And I think there's as much chance for you to be a town Miller as a scum Miller.

If you're town, I'm having difficulty seeing it. Though the last replies seem improved if only because:

The sarcasm that doesn't always looks like sarcasm until it's later presented as sarcasm in the most sarcastic way possible - and this is only an issue because it feels like nothing he says can be taken at face value or believed, even if he

is

town.

It feels less like a scum trying to hide their motives behind sarcasm that only serves to confuse and only avoids answering questions.

But I can see you as scum:

To me, it looks like you're applying the 'Big Lie' theory - that if you tell a lie that's big enough, and you tell it often enough, people will believe you are telling the truth, even when what you are saying is total crap.

I think that your continually insinuating that our PR's can confirm you as town is an attempt to get as many of our investigative PR's to target you as possible. I bring it to attention because that would be a sad waste of PR power, and unless we have a gunsmith, we shouldn't be wasting any night abilities on you since none of these can confirm you as a definite besides gunsmith.

Which goes full circle back to:

There are a number of reasons why this claim is wonky - I mean, considering alone how alignments came after roles, this could be a brilliant gambit. For example, it could be a miller/watcher/whatever else scum team and he's using this claim to draw our investigative roles to his scumbud so that they know who all those PR's are.

Yes, completely out-there speculation.

But it doesn't mean some parts could be valid. I

am

lucky, after all.

And to whoever suggested it was a cop-out claim - I don't know. I see it at as high-risk, high reward gambit - and something he would do just 'for the lols' if just to see how long he lasts. It'd be a serious 'inyoface' if it were pulled off. And that's only if he's faking Miller - because

as

a Miller, he seems to be counting on site-meta beliefs to pull him through.

Maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

But alas, the dice have spoken.

Speaking of:

elle's dicetags post seems super town to me

Is this because of rule breaking or is there something else?

Kneeler laws don't apply to me.

[Alfred Borden]

MacTammyTierceEmpireThorNastyrashaNacho vote this with me pls

Maybe later, I'm hunting

wabbits

cats. Also, you could have done way better than Tammy. Way to suck.

Because he posted a reads list that contains so few town reads combined with a handful of weak wristed scum reads combined with not including me a player he may or may not have just indicated should die and/or had nonsensical votes. Also, he had just indicated a townread on Benmage but left him off his town list, making either this lista lie, or his advocacy of Benmage=teh townz a lie, so either way I want him dead now.

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

Hey Thor, try taking a look at the first page of the game. See that part that says we're a hydra? That was my other head who posted that list. I even said in #599 that the lists of stuff come from him and that he's a lot slower/more methodical than I am at sorting out his own reads. I'm letting him do his own thing because he works best uninterrupted and he's frankly a far better scumhunter than I am. The reads list you're complaining about is a follow up on his earlier one and the "more later" should have been a really really obvious hint that said second list was incomplete and that he was planning to fill it up as he checked more stuff. If you've actually bothered to read any of this hydra's posts, you'd notice that this head haven't been exactly shy about my townreads nor the reasoning for them (and as far as the Benmage townread goes, see my last post).

And I never ever said I wanted you dead. The only thing I said was that a joke I directed to Syryana applied to you too. I think you absolutely do have horrible/nonsensical votes but that doesn't make you scum (I learned my lesson from Black Flag Nightless). You're null and I suspect you'll probably stay there for most of this game as there's very little I think you won't do as scum, if anything at all.

Mainly? What else caused you to make that vote?

Hey StupendousMan, I wrote a bunch of words explaining why I think you're scum because you asked and I'm not usually this nice and you ignored me and that makes me very very sad, pls don't ignore me

[Tierce]

Also if SafetyDance flips scum I am immediately calling for blood and lynching the Nautilius slot for the elleheathen/ellebereth/Ellibereth slip. In fact I am awfully tempted to go there immediately because how the heck do you do that unless Elli is present on your mind due to QT posts. I don't see the first post causing such an impression.

Nacho. You went and drew scum on us?

If it was anyone but Nacho right now I would consider buying into this but I don't think I can accept that he could be scum at the moment.

Neither can I. The beautiful thing is that this is probably multiball (go ahead and deny it again, Zdenek!), so Nacho-scum is one of those freebies I don't have to worry about. SafetyDance's list, though, that one was crap.

Also if SafetyDance flips scum I am immediately calling for blood and lynching the Nautilius slot for the elleheathen/ellebereth/Ellibereth slip. In fact I am awfully tempted to go there immediately because how the heck do you do that unless Elli is present on your mind due to QT posts. I don't see the first post causing such an impression.

Remind me, are you usually a fan of scum-slips or is this one special?

I caught Feysal (at the same time Ser Arthur Dayne did) and Iecerint in ADWD. It depends on the thing--I wasn't enthused by "Wights" being a scumslip from elleheathen, because while it is viable as a name of a scumteam, elleheathen is posting flavorful posts and her reasoning makes sense. But yeah, scum do slip, etc.

Tierce's safetydance vote confuses the shit out of me. splain plz (also, SD's response to it is good)

Holy fucking shit no it's not good. He has ten scumreads after reading the game for the first time? No, quadz. (Bonus factor is that it shows Nacho-scum if he flips scum, but I won't care about Nacho for like three Days). See stuff like this:

A.) Those few lines make all the difference. For all I know you generated that list using an RNG.

B.) I'm also complaining about its actual contents (scum section including my 3 best townreads and literally only one player I think is scum). If your list is going to be that controversial and scumread a whole bunch of players no one else is you need to explain it.

You disagreeing with it doesn't make it controversial. I really don't get why you should have to have an arbitrary amount in your scums reads. I don't know the number of scum. Do you? Last Faraday game I played had just 4+1. So why do you have 6? Know something we don't?

He's not thinking of setup, he's not thinking of relationships between players, this is just a lynch with

ten bloody scumreads

because the poor thing doesn't know the number of scum.


Empire you are pretty and etc. but I really do want commentary on SafetyDance now.

[Tierce]

Nice typo there.

He's not thinking of setup, he's not thinking of relationships between players, this is just a

lynch

list

with

ten bloody scumreads

because the poor thing doesn't know the number of scum.

[Alfred Borden]

The only thing Safety's posted as of where I am is a prod dodge and I'm on like post 800, chill pls

[Tierce]

17 more posts get moving

[Shadoweh]

My read on Benmage is very largely meta based. If you have the time, compare his play in /in-vitational 12 with his play in The Wire and it's like night and day. As town, he can get very abrasive and combative and he's definitely not shy about talking how he feels he's above the game

This is pretty much my opinion on Benmage as well, although I would have put it consisely that Benmage is more likely to be town here because he's being a dick. Evading meta etc sure but his tone is natural.

[Tierce]

While I agree with the above and I

hate

to use this reasoning, the fact that Benmage is going through difficult stuff IRL may also influence how much of his mood is passing on to his posts, regardless of alignment.

[quadz08]

Also if SafetyDance flips scum I am immediately calling for blood and lynching the Nautilius slot for the elleheathen/ellebereth/Ellibereth slip. In fact I am awfully tempted to go there immediately because how the heck do you do that unless Elli is present on your mind due to QT posts. I don't see the first post causing such an impression.

Nacho. You went and drew scum on us?

Yeah I am okay with this.

VOTE: SafetyDance


I hope to wake up and see GOOD THINGS from you, Nacho.

Holy fucking shit no it's not good. He has ten scumreads after reading the game for the first time? No, quadz. (Bonus factor is that it shows Nacho-scum if he flips scum, but I won't care about Nacho for like three Days). See stuff like this:

Care to inform me when the reason for your vote on him changed, Tierce? Cause it seems to me like someone came up with a better reason than you, and you decided to hop on and pretend it was your reason all along.

And for the record, this is a pretty good response to the reasoning for your vote (the only vote on him at the time besides Syryana, and the singular vote with any reasons attached):

I'm confused. What slip? If I'm the one who scumslipped why I am left in the dark over it?

[Cephrir]

Cursory flip through those meta games seem to indicate Benmage could be town but I still hate the direction of his scumhunting thus far.

Also, I didn't notice before that SD's 874 completely missed the point of my 872 (I was complaining about the identities of his scumreads not the number).

[Tierce]

quadz, post before that:

Oh, was 721 game-related at all?

Nah, they went and eloped on us. A scandal, really, but what thrills.

Can you explain how on earth you happen to have ten scumreads?

[Cephrir]

And for the record, this is a pretty good response to the reasoning for your vote (the only vote on him at the time besides Syryana, and the singular vote with any reasons attached):

I'm confused. What slip? If I'm the one who scumslipped why I am left in the dark over it?

How is "I'm confused" good? Hadn't someone just explained the possible-slip? Even if they hadn't, "good" is quite a stretch.

[StupendousMan]

As much as I love to troll people who ask for reasons/cases on themselves, I'll make an exception just for you because I'm a nice guy:
- #370 very quickly after Tammy had silent voted you. This means that you've been following along but not really saying a whole lot. I want to know why that is.
- You also comment only on a pretty meaningless line from Shadoweh in that same post and nothing else that shoots down her assertion of townieness. Again, I want to know why that is and what your thoughts on the game are.

Thank you very much, sir.
- Believe it or not, I actually opened the page only a little while after Tammy's vote, so I immediately responded.
- That small statement caught my eye, and I hadn't read much of anything else. My current thoughts are that Zdenek is scum. Town are macmollie, Thor, you, Tierce, Amrun, and KKB. Everyone else is either null or I forgot about them. I don't have time to go much more in-depth than that.

[macmollie]

I don't like either the sd or the sm pushes.

srs bizness now

[macmollie]

mostly sd

played scum with him once then he subbed out.

the play is completely different here.

[Tierce]

pretended 2 be an idiot dog. his performance was lacking in comparison 2 such greats as tierce and vi

We even have otter plushies. (\u^_^u/)

StupendousMan--why so polite?

[macmollie]

u scum tierce?

can u plz answer teh question?

[Alfred Borden]

@Nacho re - #812:

1) Yeah, I was really worried when I read your first catch-up because it seemed like it was the same kind of low-effort/disinterested/disengaged stuff I remember from your scum game but you've stepped up here and that makes me feel happy in my insides. Still want to know how much of this game Elli's looked at though, that's the only worry I have at the moment.

2) Eh, honestly, I think your reasons for reading Andy as town are naive. I mean, even when he was scum in The Game That Shall Not Be Mentioned, he seemed to be "having fun" (at least on the surface anyway - we're talking stuff like jovial tone, etc.) and I can see him doing the fake PR thing as either alignment really. Not really concerned about his activity because I know what's going on with him but I just want to see readable content from him and I don't have that yet and I'm not going to give him a pass for it.

3) Cephrir looks better after the Thor interactions (which I'll admit I mostly skimmed because it got to be noise at some point) but sorry, I'm a big paranoid baby and his scum-preference just means it won't be an easy townread.

4) Gotta ask 'marble, last I talked to him he was still in his initial sorting phase.