Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)

[Malakittens]

Fuck Mastin your ':P' are contagious.

[funkybike1]

I know how that feels. We have 3 days to deadline. I agree with Mhork on the lack of any Mae town case. This may be due to inactivity though I have to say I did get a slight scum vibe when I looked at her (nearly nonexistent) iso. My other guesses at the moment are shos and Malakittens, but those are more guesses than anything.

[shos]

funky, any reaction to any one of my dozen posts that says why you're scum?

[penguin_alien]

I'm a PR, you will need me, please, you guys, it's really great.
Holy God, can you not lynch me, if I flip you'll rue the date!

I have heard such protestations every game--the scum will lie.
If it looks like scum I'll lynch it, being right is such a high.
Lynch the scum, win the game:
That's the way to make your name!

With nine alive, it takes five to lynch!

Vote Count 1.13

Lord Mhork (L-3): Maemuki, mastin2
Malakittens (L-5):
mastin2 (L-5):
bv310 (L-5):
Maemuki (L-2): elleheathen, Lord Mhork, Grimgroove
shos (L-5):
Grimgroove (L-5):
elleheathen (L-5):
funkybike1 (L-3): Malakittens, shos

Not voting: bv310, funkybike1

V/LA:

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-10-21 00:44:01)

Maemuki has twelve hours to reply to the prod; I will start looking for a replacement now as a preemptive measure and will add 48 hours to deadline if replacing Maemuki is necessary.

[elleheathen]

More wine!

You know you've been playing mafia for too long when you can't hear this statement without adding "in front of me!".

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling

Srs? So you like posting of incorrect information presented as facts and blatant misreps - because that's all Mae has posted. And yet somehow that 'screams town' to you - because of

tone

?

Ironically enough, this itself is a 'misrep', because you're saying I think Mae's town for nothing more than tone. There's a whole hell of a lot more than that, but to humor you, even IF there was JUST the tone...yes, that'd be enough.

Touche - though technically, it's not really a misrep considering I'm asking you a

question

based on what I think of Mae's craptastic posting - but I get your point as the way I phrased it is more accusatory than questioning. It's still a valid point because I don't understand at all where you're coming from with this - I feel like Mae is being ridic scummy yet because they seem carefree in their gameplay, they're getting a pass.

What do you think about my questions to Mae in 172, since a lot of your reasoning for thinking they are town is answered in that post for why the exact same posts make me think scum.

Quite frankly, I ignored them. Don't even know what you asked; wasn't paying attention to them.

HURT MY FEELS D:

What "move"? There is no "move"...
She didn't draw attention on herself. Other people PUT attention on her, and with her latest godawful post she lazily tried to squirm her way out of that attention field.

This is more than Mae just not participating a lot. She tried to give off the air of participation when pulling the "Mhork is sheeping"-thing, and then giving some half-assed reads on everyone in her last post. Of course it's coming from scum, there's no reason at all not to think so. Lack of a move is a move itself. The lack of a move drew attention to her. And she's not squirming her way out of the attention field. She's casually brushing it off. And she's not trying to give off the air of participation. She's half-assing participation for sure, but I see no scum objective in doing so.

Of course it's not going to be scum. Yeah, there's reason to think it would be so, but it's never going to happen in practice. Seriously. I've been in 130+ games by now. In all my time...I seriously, legitimately, do not think I've ever seen a single case of a scum player doing what Mae is doing.

In this case, I advise you to look at Mae's history - as they've done this as cult, vig, and scum. This is just how they post - and in a good majority of their games, they get replaced for it. At best, it's a null tell because this is their style regardless of alignment.

Also.
I remember leaving for the weekend with a strong-gut scumread on bv - just ISO'ed and now have no idea why...

[mastin2]

Oh hey there's still no Mae town case.

Sorry 'bout that. Realized at around 4:30 when I was driving to Tae Kwon Do that I'd forgotten to do it.

Butyeah, am working on it now.

He however has only played with Mala-town, but probably has meta'd Mala-scum. He has correctly read me right when he's town and attempts to throw me for a loop when he's scum.

I've seen your scum game at least twice, if not more, Mala. I distinctly recall, for instance, a game where I was nightkilled N1 by your scumteam, and you fakeclaimed watcher. Butyeah. Point stands, as Mala has confirmed. I'm at least fairly decent at reading her. Perhaps not super-competent at it, but certainly enough to have confidence in my townread.

[mastin2]

Fuck Mastin your ':P' are contagious.

(I get that a lot*. )

*But really, it's not like I have a dominance over the emoticon. Plenty of people use it, some using it a lot. I'm just the guy who uses it enough that it becomes comment-worthy.

[funkybike1]

funky, any reaction to any one of my dozen posts that says why you're scum?

You're in tunnel vision mode, and you have been for most of the game. Arguments like the ones you're making can be made against anyone (who posts) in this game. Maybe if you looked at other people you would realize how wrong you are. You're just staying on me since you don't want to look like an idiot, thinking you have 100% scum without looking for any town in me at all. You're not scumhunting. You're just going with the flow.

VOTE: Maemuki

L-1

, yeah, this seriously makes me look town, we can probably stop doing this, right?

[mastin2]

I AM TYPING THE CASE RIGHT NOW, AND IF YOU HAMMER, I WILL TAKE IT AS A SCUMCLAIM.

[penguin_alien]

Prodding bv310

[mastin2]

As promised...

Spoiler: The town

They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.

It's not better than an opera (yet), though.

My collection of Les Miseràbles cast albums is potencially embarrasing. Seriously, I'm missing very few of them.

Also, shos, it benefits scum in a way (less townies) but it also leaves them at a disadvantage (because every other townie is now suspicious of them). So there's that.

These posts both show the casual, relaxed feeling I expect from a town player, ESPECIALLY in the early-game. Scum in the early-game are typically going to be nervous, typically going to be on edge, because they haven't learned how to blend in. Mae, here, however, is just posting without a care in the world.

So, Mhork, won't you even give us a teeny tiny bit of your reasoning?

Your vote, maybe?

Yet you only voted after funky did. I don't think that makes much sense, but w/e. (b'-')b

Mae begins the inquiry into Mhork. A scum-Mae has no reason to focus only on Mhork, at least, so casually. A town-Mae who is scumhunting casually has every reason to.

I'll be honest--you'll see this throughout the case, but a lot of the reason Mae's a townread is because Mae's acting as a casual-me acts in a game. But it makes sense. If you're not really sure who the scum are, you have two options. Super-aggressive, and laid back casual scumhunting. You might think they produce different results, but the net effect is actually identical; they both catch people off-guard. Mae's posting may not be entirely intense, but they still hone in on key things which a town player's looking for.

"Why not a scum player?"

If Mae were scum, Mae would push this harder. Instead, we get this casual, relaxed, "whatevs". Mae doesn't vote Mhork. Mae doesn't apply serious pressure to Mhork. As scum, that's what I'd expect someone to do. In order to try and gain some early cheap towncred. But no, instead, Mae decides to continue referencing Mhork and putting attention onto him, while not overly focusing on him.

Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why.

This again shows a Mae-town mindset, because Mae's giving good insight, while also not being entirely confident. Mae is displaying all the signs of a player who is trying to figure things out, rather than a scum player trying to minimize condemning information and maximize manipulation.

You mean when you said this? Where did you say it felt like sheeping? The part where you pointed out I voted after funky did? That just looks like a random observation.

And are you saying I didn't point out why I thought shos looked scummy?

You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, yes.

Follows through on the above, trying to work with Mhork, prodding him to see if he's town or scum. Not scum, lazily making others do the work. Mae, here, is trying to see what Mhork's alignment is. If Mae were scum, I'd expect Mae to be pushing him harder. I'd be expecting her to actively be trying to get others to vote Mhork for this. Yet Mae isn't. Instead, Mae's there, talking to him, and I do believe that's trying to figure things out.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but some people (I'm looking at you, shos, funky, since you're the other people who are under the most suspicion) are keeping me as a second backup lynch while not actually voting me. Also, I disagree almost 100% with Grimgroove's reads. I think that Ellie and Mhork sound... close, so to speak. I don't know if they've played a lot, or if this is just coincidence, but their interactions sound off.

I'm not sure if you didn't understand my question or if you didn't want to understand.

Pointing out how you're a secondary lynch candidate is something I would never expect from a scum player. This IS drawing attention to yourself. It's basically saying, bluntly, "Hey guys, you all have different primary scumreads, yet I seem to be a universal secondary scumread!" Seriously, read it and tell me Mae's not essentially saying that. Now tell me that's a scum comment. It's not. Mae's pointing out, completely without worry, that she's a likely compromise lynch. But instead of trying to dissuade people from doing so, she instead--once again--is merely pointing it out. And she's making the most of it, by hinting at what she thinks of the others who are doing it. Plus, the last part shows that scumhunting again, off of gut and interactions, but again...

As scum, why not back up her words? Why not make it something off of reasoning? It's easy to fake logic as scum. So "because there's no actual logic behind it?" doesn't work as an excuse. Instead, it's just there, as a gut feeling, essentially, and that looks town.

And the last bit is also a great line. Trying to figure out a player again, and doing so in a manner which gives good insight. The comment "you didn't want to understand" really resonated with me, in particular, because it's something that I've picked up in my numerous games: scum typically prefer to be stubborn and not see things that a town player would.

First off, I think that one of {Mhork, funky} is scum.

This is a bad argument. You're not actually refuting anything that Mastin is saying, you're just redirecting (or attempting to, anyway) his suspicion. On my own experience, people usually only do that when they don't actually have anything to say.

Call me a sucker for buddying, but Mae's thought process seems to largely be on my same wavelength. You can call the first paragraph sheeping, but the second paragraph is uncannily good if Mae were scum trying to buddy me. Because it's a legitimately solid insight into Mhork, along my own thoughts. But, critically, it's something I hadn't expressed. It's something I've been thinking Mhork's scum for doing, yet not revealing. Yet here Mae is, having said it before I ever got the chance to.

Do you literally have no other reads other than myself? It's awfully easy attacking someone who you can assume that won't answer, especially if you've checked their activity elsewhere. Out of your 20 most recent posts, 14 are about me. There is literally nothing else in them other than 'prove she's town', 'where is she', etc, etc. I think it's more likely for scum to stay hung up on what can be seen as an easy mislynch (because a lurker is an easy lynch, no matter what, especially on this case, since you have literally nothing else to hold against me other than my inactivity).

You can call this hypocritical if you'd like, but I would instead say that it's precisely because of the similarity between Mhork and Mae that makes this post town. Mae is acknowledging the suspicion on her, via addressing the same issue. But, critically, does a damn-good job of pointing out the differences and how Mhork is scummy for the behavior. It shows remarkable insight, it shows a clear town thought process, it shows logically thinking and also a type of reach-out to the other players. It continues into the next paragraph:

Now, you can think 'why Mhork? Why not Grimgroove, or elle?' Because I know their reads other than myself, especially Grimgroove. Mhork has nothing recent.

And then, Mae goes ahead and sets herself apart from Mhork, by

actually breaking the trend

and giving reads on other players. (The way that was done, not inherently town, but also not inherently scum. But having done it at all was town.)

Mastin. Oh, Mastin. I don't know if you're scum buddying or not, but I really hope not, because you're pretty much the strongest town read I have.

This really resonates with me, because again...if Mae were scum, then this would be MY thoughts about MAE's play, it being scum buddying to me. I simply don't see Mae posting this bit as scum. As town, legitimately paranoid about it, though, it makes perfect sense.

Grimgroove, I like your posts. Or better yet, I like how you make your posts, but I'm not so sure of your reads

Alright, this one's gut. I have no logical reason to like this line. But I do. I think it has to do with the interactions, in that Mae's opening up to try and work with Grimgroove, here.

shos is...weird. Very weird. And by weird I mean he seems incredibly wishy-washy. Behold:

well it's a good time to VOTE: Maemuki. This is an L-1 vote, lawl, had to say it

(etc.) ^^^blending in the crowd. has it not been repeated a dozen times now? gg LITERALLY quoted the entire ISO earlier and did it better.

the reason to not hammer is that by your post, you're policy lynching.

(etc.) Having seen these last 8 pages of content, don't you think it is time to let go of this? I mean, what can mhork possibly say that would help you? you're moving astray again, and this will only promote your lynch.

VOTE: funky mae's posting giving me gut feeling that I'm doing something wrong. better safe than sorry.

This whole progression is extremely weird. In the span of one page, you have literally held every single postion on my lynch, from 'lol L-1' to 'nah maybe not'. Would you care to explain?

This insight looks like it's town-oriented.

I'm kind of tired of looking through this game.

You can now continue with your regularly scheduled lynching. (b'-')b

This wasn't applied as an AtE. It's just a casually-thrown out there, "damn, this is harder than I should be". If that same sentence were "fuck this, I'm sick of this game", sure, yeah, scum. But it's not. It's not being applied for strategic value. Mae's not using tiredness as an excuse or a weapon. Mae's just casually referencing tiredness.

Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine

Admittedly? This isn't a rock-solid case. But it's still a damn good case.

[mastin2]

Apparently, forgot to finish the final sentence.

Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine with being lynched. As scum, I don't care what kind of player you are, under pressure, you're going to be freaking out

somehow

, and it'll bleed into your posts eventually. Be it raging, be it desperation, or something more subtle, signs of panic will form. But as town, the opposite is true. And Mae's displaying this. That calm, relaxed, casual "no biggie" deal to being lynched.

(Or something along those lines. You get the point.)

Admittedly, yes. The case makes assumptions about Mae that I cannot know for certain. But they're not unreasonable assumptions to make.

[Lord Mhork]

Unfortunately on my phone, but how on earth is Mae fine with being lynched? She stopped showing up!

As soon as I finish my book, I'm gonna hop on the computer.

[Grimgroove]

Tech this is a lie. You have seen me play as both alignments. One as scum and one as town.

I saw you play as town? Really? When was that? Seriously don't remember.

[shos]

Funky, if you say such accudations are null and can be said for anyone, ok. Give me one example. Just one and ill revise myself for tunneling.

[Grimgroove]

Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine with being lynched. As scum, I don't care what kind of player you are, under pressure, you're going to be freaking out somehow, and it'll bleed into your posts eventually. Be it raging, be it desperation, or something more subtle, signs of panic will form. But as town, the opposite is true. And Mae's displaying this. That calm, relaxed, casual "no biggie" deal to being lynched.

Haven't read your entire case yet, but with the above I disagree 100%. In my experience town shows a lot more indignation over being lynched, because they know some people are mistaking by voting them. When you're telling the truth and nobody believes you, it's far more frustrating than when lying and nobody believing you.

[Grimgroove]

I've read mastin's case and am unmoved by it. Most of it revolves around Maemuki being "relaxed", and I don't see any reason why that would be more of a town-trait than a scummy one.

He even calls her lack of scumhunting a sign of her being at ease and relaxed. While I'm very glad for her she's apparently treating this game as some kind of spa, where she can chill-out with some mud on her face, I don't see at all why this makes her town.

I do see reasons why she's scum:
- she only pursued the "Mhork is sheeping"-argument, an argument that was flawed to begin with
- she pursued it for a long time, despite its flaws
- the reads she gave on people are mostly null, and not even reads
- her vote on Lord Mhork is based on 1 argument + omgus, as far as I can see

I'm willing to wait for a replacement to drop in and claim, but I can't see what could possibly make me change my vote.

[shos]

Just read the towncase, it sucks. Far from what i thougt you talked about.

I shall not hammer of course, waiting for a claim to think.

[penguin_alien]

Ghostlin replaces Maemuki. He may commence posting. Deadline has been extended 48 hours and will be reflected in vote counts 1.13 on.

[Ghostlin]

Hi. Those of you who know me are probably pissing and moaning that you had some really bad fucking luck to have me show up. The rest of you, particularly the scum: remember my name, you'll be screaming it later. I am doing my review and will have content today.

[Lord Mhork]

I don't know how I feel about this...

[Grimgroove]

I suggest we keep the L-1 strong for the time being and not let him get too comfortable. Let's see what he produces.

[shos]

well that's a big problem. He can't defend in his replacee's name. IMO we should let him read everything and give his opinion, but, after that, I dunno, since he can't just erase theeeeeeeeeeeeeeee scumminess by mae. I've learnt my mistake on this one in the first few games here lol..

[Grimgroove]

You claiming your intent to hammer would be good.

Forcing him to claim while he's still not entirely with his head in the game should provide the most interesting result.

[Malakittens]

Tech this is a lie. You have seen me play as both alignments. One as scum and one as town.

I saw you play as town? Really? When was that? Seriously don't remember.

Mafia under the sea. I was in the gr3ycat hydra