Not really. I'm still in generate content mode. When we sync we'll likely spit out a reads list to accompany it.In post 124, Hadrian wrote:Okay but do you have a read on him by this point?
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Magna Carta Redux refers to the Magna Carta (forgive the wikipedia link please).In post 100, Porkens wrote:Tammy,
First I want to say that I understand your frustration and sympathise. For the part I am playing in it, I want to express my regret. I know how frustrating it is when the game isn't going in a direction that I am comfortable with and when I have to spend my time reading pages of stuff I don't think is productive. From my own perspective, this charter idea is to combat what frustratesme; everyone acting like a lone-wolf from their own corner of the game.
In response to your specific concerns about the charters efficacy, I'd like to ask a couple questions: What is Magna Carta Redux refering to? Is that a game where somethign like this happened? In addition, if you could dictate or have direct input on how other people in the game played, what would your list look like?
Finally, about the subjects of my posts. Yes, I am only posting about the charter and trying to see if it can work. I'm excited about the idea, and I'm still feeling it out with you all. Rest assured I am making mental notes about how people respond, and those notes will come out as the game progresses. In addition, players like Spyrex have also taken up that part of the day's activities very well, so I feel that it's being taken care of for the time being.
All I want in this game is the same thing I want in every game. And here I'll quote my other head:
[quote="Pless head of Hadrian
who is clever and not dull
"We pledge not to be fake-claiming, gambiting, useless, self-absorbed anti-town lurkers and to try to look as townie as we possibly can"[/quote]What I want in every game is to find other members of town and work with them to get rid of scum. I may be a moody, sometimes temperamental bitch, but I'm also very simple, and that's really all I want. I'm not opposed to policy lynching people who are completely unhelpful to that goal nor am I opposed to utility lynching distractions to town to achieve that goal, but I consider those as lesser evils and in absence of scum reads. I'm not a big fan of town blocks, nor do I put them together. I'll comment on who I think are town in other people's crafted blocks but I see town blocks useful in so much as it's a list of people that one feels comfortable bouncing ideas off of. *would smoke cigarette here but I quit quite a few years ago* I'm also not going to stop being paranoid because I can't. It'd be like asking me to spend a day not waffling and deliberating over every piece of information while trying to make the right choice because someone says I can't. It's not going to happen.
I guess what I really want besides a zig-a-zig-ah (yes, I went there it's late I'm delirious), it's what I quoted from my other head above.
Haha you mean THE Magna Carta. Ok, what's the negative comparison you are trying to draw between that and our charter?
With everything else you said, we are in complete agreement. Don't you think that if we put together a formal list of behaviors like that and lynched lynched people who didn't follow them until everyone played well, the world would be a better place?
If we had had this charter and held Kanye up to it in Spyrex's game, we would have won, right?
With everything else you said, we are in complete agreement. Don't you think that if we put together a formal list of behaviors like that and lynched lynched people who didn't follow them until everyone played well, the world would be a better place?
If we had had this charter and held Kanye up to it in Spyrex's game, we would have won, right?
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Quick note: I realize that 6 pages in and I've started repeating myself quite a bit. I'm confident that I've clearly explained the idea and stated my best arguments for it, and I don't need to start just harping on it. We can still come back to the idea if there is group interest, and I encourage others to keep talking about it if they have the initiative and desire to do so. This isn't a feelings post and I'm not butthurt; I feel like at the very least it got a few balls moving.
I still expect the questions I've asked to be answered, but tomorrow I will start approaching the game from different angles as well.
I still expect the questions I've asked to be answered, but tomorrow I will start approaching the game from different angles as well.
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ugh...I did reread and have thoughts and want to respond to other things, but I need to go to bed, so tomorrow at some point.
pedit: I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between the magna carta and this charter except for it's a charter.
I don't know if we put down a formal list of behaviors the world would be a better place or not.
We would have won Spyrex's game if I wasn't a sucksack. I had serious misgivings about Kanye since early game and I should have pushed that. But, what also held me personally back was the amount of crap I would have felt by hammering Kanye incorrectly and part of that was a hold over from Faraday's upick where ooba fakeclaimed a guilty on him and got him mislynched and I just would have felt like the biggest heel if I got him mislynched again so soon after that. I know it sucks and it's horrible and I shouldn't let mishaps in other games affect current ones, but I do, it's a weakness that I'm trying to work on.
Anyway, bed. I have to get up in a few hours.
pedit: I wasn't trying to draw a comparison between the magna carta and this charter except for it's a charter.
I don't know if we put down a formal list of behaviors the world would be a better place or not.
We would have won Spyrex's game if I wasn't a sucksack. I had serious misgivings about Kanye since early game and I should have pushed that. But, what also held me personally back was the amount of crap I would have felt by hammering Kanye incorrectly and part of that was a hold over from Faraday's upick where ooba fakeclaimed a guilty on him and got him mislynched and I just would have felt like the biggest heel if I got him mislynched again so soon after that. I know it sucks and it's horrible and I shouldn't let mishaps in other games affect current ones, but I do, it's a weakness that I'm trying to work on.
Anyway, bed. I have to get up in a few hours.
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Vote Count 1.04:
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!
LastManStanding (L-7):
morph the cat (L-5): Hadrian, Madotsuki
Madotsuki (L-7):
Porkens (L-6): 1baldeagle1
Quill (L-7):
SpyreX (L-7):
HighShroomish (L-6): Kdub
hiplop (L-5): Spyrex, awesomeusername
awesomeusername (L-7):
Kdub (L-7):
Surye (L-6): morph the cat
1baldeagle1 (L-7):
Hadrian (L-7):
Not Voting: LastManStanding, Porkens, Quill, HighShroomish, Surye, hiplop
V/LA:
Deadline is in (expired on 2014-03-12 19:16:41)
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!
LastManStanding (L-7):
morph the cat (L-5): Hadrian, Madotsuki
Madotsuki (L-7):
Porkens (L-6): 1baldeagle1
Quill (L-7):
SpyreX (L-7):
HighShroomish (L-6): Kdub
hiplop (L-5): Spyrex, awesomeusername
awesomeusername (L-7):
Kdub (L-7):
Surye (L-6): morph the cat
1baldeagle1 (L-7):
Hadrian (L-7):
Not Voting: LastManStanding, Porkens, Quill, HighShroomish, Surye, hiplop
V/LA:
Deadline is in (expired on 2014-03-12 19:16:41)
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People have set ways that know to play the game. If you want to develop "good" playstyles, you need to start with people who don't have one yet, and that's in the Newbie games. And by big I didn't mean by number, I meant more by the fact that people in this game have set playstyles.In post 117, Porkens wrote:Why are you admonishing me for trying to make everyone play well? How is this a "big" game? What else would you like to see in the first five pages that would be more useful? Why do you think people can't change their play styles? Are you still under the impression that the charter is something I would make that would tell other people what to do? How can you say this would be a good idea in a newbie game when before you completely wrote it off as something that just hid scum?In post 110, HighShroomish wrote:@porkens the charter probably isn't something you should introduce in a big game- or we get five pages of a grand total of zip that is really useful. People have set ways that they use to find scum and town, and they have certain playstyles. No way around that. I would think the charter would be benificialmif you started in the Newbie games, so that players just starting can play, well, like that. Eventually, it will probably be a site side thing. Starting it here was probably not the best idea.
Also, you notice how I said there were two different reasons I thought you could have for doing this charter. And I responded to both. However, you really don't like my reaction to the town reason.
There was a very distinct change in the degree of your opinion between your first two posts. You were pretty adamantly anti-charter before for a list of reasons that applies to all games, now it "probably isn't something you should introduce in a big game" but might be good for newbies. Maybe not coincidentally, most of the pro-charter people were generally being town-read during that time.In post 113, HighShroomish wrote:It's a backpedal... How?
Wait, I'm fishy because SpyreX agrees with what I've said? You're going to have to explain that one to me.In post 114, hiplop wrote:kdub looks fishy to me for virtually the same reason as what spyrex said in this post, btw.
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So far you answered one question, sort of. Answer the rest.
Why are you admonishing me for trying to make everyone play well?
What else would you like to see in the first five pages that would be more useful?
Are you still under the impression that the charter is something I would make that would tell other people what to do?
How can you say this would be a good idea in a newbie game when before you completely wrote it off as something that just hid scum?
Why are you admonishing me for trying to make everyone play well?
What else would you like to see in the first five pages that would be more useful?
Are you still under the impression that the charter is something I would make that would tell other people what to do?
How can you say this would be a good idea in a newbie game when before you completely wrote it off as something that just hid scum?
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I'm telling you that since apparently this is a sure fire method, to name names. Not just "oh his buddies XYZ" Clearly you seem to suspect certain people from his plan, so who?In post 108, 1baldeagle1 wrote:3. Basically, I suspect one of his buddies to agree to the charter so he gets a hiding spot, and possibly the other buddy would oppose it to distance each other.
Not to just agree with everyone a day late, but this is too much, I think. If we spend all day today scumhunting and then just lynch the person with the least posts at the end of the day, we've mostly wasted the day. Everyone may have the same statistical chance of being town or scum without any flips or night actions to provide info, but that doesn't mean we should close our eyes and just throw darts, so to speak.In post 90, Porkens wrote:Posting at work so forgive my brevity and ignorance of some of the particulars.
Tammy's(I think?) post about the charter getting rid of the activities she usually uses made me think of something: What if the charter was not only a code of behavior, but also described a course of actions and responsibilities? We could design it, for example, to force every player to do certain things and/or have us plan our course of action: A specific example or two:
-Each player must provide a complete reads list every X days/posts.
-On day 1, the players will lynch the person with the lowest number of posts.
-At the beginning of day 2, the 3 top scumreads will be debated in open forum to determine the lynch.
Someone else pointed out that the charter wouldn't be set in stone. Of course negotiating and altering these things would also give us reads.
Kdub, I think you're on to something here. Shroom's posts about the charter before he gets called out are also very much in line with the way town's thinking in the aggregate. I could let the first one slide; that's just his kneejerk opinion. But by the time he posts again, 70 posts later, all of the antis- that have posted have mellowed their opinion, except 1baldeagle1. Moreover, his reason for why it's mellowed/why he's against it is "Porkens, this is a bad game to do this in," whereas his reason why it's a bad idea initially is "scum will sign up to protect themselves." There's no commonality there.In post 135, Kdub wrote:There was a very distinct change in the degree of your opinion between your first two posts. You were pretty adamantly anti-charter before for a list of reasons that applies to all games, now it "probably isn't something you should introduce in a big game" but might be good for newbies. Maybe not coincidentally, most of the pro-charter people were generally being town-read during that time.In post 113, HighShroomish wrote:It's a backpedal... How?
I like pulling this thread. Let's see where it goes.
Vote: HighShroomish
With regards to the charter, what elements of it have we agreed that everyone can live with, regardless of whether they want to actively uphold them or just don't want to have to fight charter-followers over the rest of the game. I want to keep discussing it, because I think it could be a good tool, but I feel like we're on the edge of talking about the theory of the charter versus the practical benefits and use of the charter. Let's be engineers, not theoretical physicists (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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uh...reading? first post was rvs iircIn post 128, SpyreX wrote:I could get behind suyre but
@Hiplop:
Explain how you get from your first post to that post in your head.
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...because of exactly that reason. Its better to have a bad townie than a great scumIf "bad players" and "good players" have an equal chance of being scum, why wouldn't you want to lynch the bad players first?
If we punish anti-town to the point where they are forced to be pro-town, what is the problem?
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How well would you rate your own ability to look pro-town?In post 89, awesomeusername wrote:People who generally look scummy don't want town to just lynch scummy-looking people because then they'll be lynched, and people who are pretty good at looking pro-town think all town should be, and support the charter.
Hopefully it leads to more people voting and to less abstract charter discussions?In post 139, Quill wrote:I like pulling this thread. Let's see where it goes.
Vote: HighShroomish
.We (both) think you might be onto something here.In post 136, morph the cat wrote:Guess who is still posting plenty elsewhere~
~ Plessiez
This is starting to border on the absurd. Your agrument, taken to it's logical conclusion, is that we should lynch all the "good players" first. I'll try one more time and then I'm giving up: You are looking at 2 people in a game, one of them is a "bad player" who lurks, lolposts, and hides behind his shitmeta, and the other is a "good player" who contributes, offers reads, investigates, and scumhunts. For whatever reasons, they are both equally scummy. As a matter of general policy, who would you want lynched?In post 145, hiplop wrote:...because of exactly that reason. Its better to have a bad townie than a great scumIf "bad players" and "good players" have an equal chance of being scum, why wouldn't you want to lynch the bad players first?
If we punish anti-town to the point where they are forced to be pro-town, what is the problem?
You didn't answer the second question.
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Yeah, I was waiting for him to finish answering my questions (121, 137), but this is a good idea.
Vote: HighShroomish
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@Hadrian: I like to think I'm fairly good at appearing town. In my only other game on site I took pride in the fact that nobody ever voted me. Anyway, my point was more that poor players don't want to be auto-lynched than that town-looking players want to auto-lynch poor players (that was a generalization anyways, and a bad one at that I realize), and that the correlation between the top scumreads at the time and opposing the charter was not coincidental.
@SpyreX: I think you missed my question. Do you scum read baldeagle or are you saying he's a good policy lynch?
@morph: On a scale of 1 to 10, how serious is your Surye vote?
@Shroomish:
Post 92 is excellent. I wholeheartedly agree that we should focus on scumhunting more than theory discussion, and we're doing a better job of that now, and that post sparked the change. Hadrian is my strongest town read at the moment. Kdub and SpyreX are the other two. I like my vote where it is for now.
@SpyreX: I think you missed my question. Do you scum read baldeagle or are you saying he's a good policy lynch?
@morph: On a scale of 1 to 10, how serious is your Surye vote?
@Shroomish:
What's your point here? I'm not sure whether you're calling his reaction scummy or what.However, you really don't like my reaction to the town reason.
Post 92 is excellent. I wholeheartedly agree that we should focus on scumhunting more than theory discussion, and we're doing a better job of that now, and that post sparked the change. Hadrian is my strongest town read at the moment. Kdub and SpyreX are the other two. I like my vote where it is for now.
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11In post 148, awesomeusername wrote:@morph: On a scale of 1 to 10, how serious is your Surye vote?
He's clearly gone out of his way to avoid the thread for multiple days now.