NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[talah]

You explicitly said "If you choose to believe talah over me". That means that you're confident that I'm lying, whereas only just before that in the quote I posted, you expressed doubt that I would flip scum.

Regarding self-voting, yes I already explained in the post where I self voted, and you know this because you just stated the reasons. So you're actually now not saying that I haven't explained, you're switching out the argument by saying that you don't believe the reasons which you acknowledge that you're aware of.

And if I'm not doing what I'm doing for the reasons I've stated (ie being ganked by Rogers' amazing ability to post ten accusations a day at me consistently over periods of days before I could even get around to addressing the first, then getting worn down and giving up), how does it benefit my scumteam for me to do what I'm doing?

[AngryPidgeon]

You guys aren't just cross-bussing each other, right?

[Luca Blight]

It doesn't mean I'm confident you're lying, it means that from the perspective of everyone else (barring scum) no-one knows if we are telling the truth or not, so they are going to have to believe one over the other to achieve a lynch. With the self-vote, yes you explained, what I perhaps should have said is your explanation wasn't a valid one. With regards to your last point, are you saying everyone should believe you are town because self-voting wouldn't benefit your scumteam if you were mafia? Seeing as you are now trying to use that as a possible defence, I'd say that's reason enough.

[AngryPidgeon]

no-one knows if we are telling the truth or not, so they are going to have to believe one over the other to achieve a lynch.

Err except like ThAdmiral is demonstrating with his aptil counterwagon that we DONT have to believe one of you is scum. It is plausible (well not really if you are halfway decent at being town) to think you are both town.

[Luca Blight]

That's true AP, but do you really think a lynch on anyone else at this point is likely? We are two VT claims, meaning it is a low-risk scenario, and would both be informative lynches for day 1.

[talah]

It doesn't mean I'm confident you're lying, it means that from the perspective of everyone else (barring scum) no-one knows if we are telling the truth or not, so they are going to have to believe one over the other to achieve a lynch.

That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm confident that you're scum, but there's no way it would even occur to me to present an argument which is that town have to believe one or the other of us, because I know I'm not scum, so the only options I'm even considering are you-scum or you-town.

With the self-vote, yes you explained, what I perhaps should have said is your explanation wasn't a valid one. With regards to your last point, are you saying everyone should believe you are town because self-voting wouldn't benefit your scumteam if you were mafia? Seeing as you are now trying to use that as a possible defence, I'd say that's reason enough.

Why was my explanation not valid then? The facts of Rogers (and others) tunnelling me for days on end are available in-thread. You and I have had the most discussed and speculated on wagons. One of us has to go because a flash wagon is going to net town no information.

Is this the first time that you're thinking this through seriously?

[Zdenek]

Let's see.

I don't like AP's defense of Luca over Luca commenting that he wouldn't play like this as scum. Luca's comment was completely null, and AP justifying it by saying that seems like something he would say is unbelievable. I also don't like AP defending PV by using other people's meta. On the other hand, 1522 at least to me it exhibits a fairly natural thought process.

I think that Snork comes out looking pretty bad in the Snork-Nero discussion. Snork made a post where he asked Nero a bunch of rhetorical questions:

Also how is it OMGUSy when I wasn't scumreading you and am unaware if you are scumreading me?

I mean, you have nothing to hide in your ISO, do you? Why wouldn't you want people to ISO you?

That post strongly implies that Snork thinks that Nero is scum, so Snork following the discussion up by saying that he's not scum reading Nero doesn't track.
Then there's

I'm not concerned with people I think are town scumreading me... Why would this even register? If I thought you might be scum, you putting me in your scumpile would be something that supports that theory. But if other evidence made me think you were town, then a healthy dose of paranoia isn't something that's going go ping.

But now that you mention it... that's.. a big list. Talk about casting a wide net.

Snork suggests that scum reading him is scummy, which is dumb, and he's town reading Nero to the point that you aren't reading his posts, but then try to undermine him by accusing him of casting a big net. It also doesn't track with a townie mindset.

I worry that I'm misreading these posts of Snork because he comes across as experienced, but presumably isn't. I thought he looked fine before these events anyway.

I think that Yates' point about PV scum hunting off the wagon is good - it very well could be fake scum hunting.

BioChemist has been chatting it up on site chat the last 2 days so I'm pretty much thinking he's scum.

All townie will I had for him is cancelled.

PV

, I'd really like you to explain your 1469.

I don't like Snow_Storm lecturing his scum-read Talah about town play, but I'm inclined to not worry about that now.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

Where'd Snow_Storm say the first bit?

[Luca Blight]

That doesn't make sense to me.

I'm confident that you're scum, but there's no way it would even occur to me to present an argument which is that town have to believe one or the other of us, because I know I'm not scum, so the only options I'm even considering are you-scum or you-town.

You're contradicting yourself here, as you have said numerous times that one of us have to go (even in the quote below), meaning you obviously do share the same opinion.

Why was my explanation not valid then? The facts of Rogers (and others) tunnelling me for days on end are available in-thread. You and I have had the most discussed and speculated on wagons. One of us has to go because a flash wagon is going to net town no information.

Is this the first time that you're thinking this through seriously?

It's not valid because it doesn't make sense from a town perspective, and you then go and change your vote back at the drop of a hat which undermines it anyway, as I've already said.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Talah

I think that the case on him is stronger than the case on Luca.
I also think his self-voting is purely manipulative, especially in light of wanting the town to get information from the lynches.

I also don't want Snork to think that I'm dumb - just a simple Zdenek trying to do his best.

[PeregrineV]

Just a quick note to say out of time today. Maybe tonight, probably tomorrow.

[talah]

You're contradicting yourself here, as you have said numerous times that one of us have to go (even in the quote below), meaning you obviously do share the same opinion.

You think that town have to believe one or the other of us, which says that you think town need to believe one of us is most assuredly scum.

I think that you're scum, however there is no way that I would expect town to know either of our alignments, only scum.

How is that the same opinion?

It's not valid because it doesn't make sense from a town perspective, and you then go and change your vote back at the drop of a hat which undermines it anyway, as I've already said.

Getting frustrated doesn't make sense for a town perspective? Do town not get frustrated?

Changing my vote back is not exactly at the drop of a hat when half a dozen people tell me I'm an idiot unless I change it back, and we're now not going to be flashwagonning.

Where were you for the first twelve days of Today?
Did your scumteam tell you it would be fine to lurk through Day 1 because they could paint scumhunting on lurkers as scummy in and of itself?

[Luca Blight]

You think that town have to believe one or the other of us, which says that you think town need to believe one of us is most assuredly scum.

I think that you're scum, however there is no way that I would expect town to know either of our alignments, only scum.

How is that the same opinion?

We both seem to agree one of us needs to be lynched tonight, right? I don't know where you're getting this idea that town must know either of our alignments from, at the end of the day it boils down to which one they believe more, that's not to say either of us are necessarily lying.

Getting frustrated doesn't make sense for a town perspective? Do town not get frustrated?

Changing my vote back is not exactly at the drop of a hat when half a dozen people tell me I'm an idiot unless I change it back, and we're now not going to be flashwagonning.

Where were you for the first twelve days of Today?
Did your scumteam tell you it would be fine to lurk through Day 1 because they could paint scumhunting on lurkers as scummy in and of itself?

So you feel frustrated seemingly due to Rogers (who had been replaced out of the game anyway) and from no recent provocation you suddenly self-vote, even though I was significantly closer to being lynched at the time than you anyway? Using frustration as an excuse doesn't wash. I believe one person asked you to change it back and you did so immediately, of course others were going to be critical of it, what did you expect?

And no, the scumteam didn't tell me anything because I am not apart of it. If I was I'm sure they wouldn't have instructed me to play as I have been for most of this game.

[talah]

I just find it baffling that you're aware of events which have occurred, and yet you've taken no time whatsoever until right now to comment on anything which has been happening.

You're aware of events but are clumsily forming opinions which point to me-scum, as though you haven't previously thought about what's been going on from a town viewpoint.

And now you're trying to present the matter as though you've thought I was scum all along, having voted others for no real reason in the past, and your defence is 'If I was scum would I be playing this badly?'

How is that town? Where were you for the last 12 game days and why did you promise content and then change that to gleeful lurking?

[Luca Blight]

All I'm doing is responding to your questions, I'm not trying to present the matter as though I "thought you were scum all along". I don't see how you can ascertain from this little discussion that I "haven't previously thought about what's been going on from a town perspective".

You're accusing me of clumsily forming opinions, it seems to me you are making clumsy assumptions about the opinions I am apparently forming.

[talah]

Are you going to ignore my question about where you've been all this time, and how your attitude changed from being apologetic about content, to saying outright that your lack of activity is a town tell?

[Luca Blight]

I have been generally busy of late, though I don't expect you to believe that so it's a pointless question. I never said my lack of activity was a town tell, I merely commented that the manner in which I was posting was such that if I was another player, I wouldn't expect someone who plays in such a way on day 1 to flip scum. Obviously this is a moot point, WIFOM etc.

[talah]

And what would you expect your activity to comprise of on Day 2?

Do you plan to have any opinions on the alignments of any players tomorrow?

Do you have any reads from the events of today, since you appear to acknowledge that you have been reading and thinking about the game from a town perspective?

[Luca Blight]

I don't know, I cant see into the future.

Yes.

I'm not going to pretend I have read every post, because I haven't, but I have followed the thread loosely and have an idea of who I think might be leaning town/scum. It's 23:10 where I am and I need to get up at 5am for work, so I'm off to bed. I will post more Tomorrow.

[talah]

Well here's what you've got so far for your own reference:

Scum:
talah, bipolar

Town:
AP, Snork

With pretty much no reasoning and a lot of smileys and exclamation marks which has now turned into srsbsnss when someone's actually able to question you.

If you were town and thought you were going to be lynched, you should have posted a list then. Not have to be pressured into it.

It's like talking to two different people.

[DeasVail]

Snork, in my experience, judging wagons by how 'town' the wagoners are is a very flawed way of judging the alignment of the wagonee.

I also don't want Snork to think that I'm dumb - just a simple Zdenek trying to do his best.

But do you want me to be absolutely crushed and miserable for the rest of the game? Vote for Luca.

Talah, don't let yourself be lynched.

~~

Luca is not a lurker lynch, he is an actual proper lynch, and I think he's scum. I ask everyone who's willing to consider it to vote for Luca and not Talah. I can't be completely confident of my opinion here, but I

am

town and feel that it should be fairly clear that I am from my posts here, so know at the very least that my reads are coming from a genuine place.

[DeasVail]

tl;dr

VOTE FOR LUCA BLIGHT

[Plessiez]

pisskop hasn't posted for over 48 hours and hasn't arranged a V/LA. He has therefore been prodded.

pisskop hasn't responded to this prod, which was sent over 24 hours ago. I am therefore looking for a replacement...

[Nero Cain]

I think that Yates' point about PV scum hunting off the wagon is good - it very well could be fake scum hunting.

Didn't Snork do that to?

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

Where'd Snow_Storm say the first bit?

This was the argument at the time and that's what Snow and Snorl's attempt at a Thad flashwagon was for. Any suggestion that it was for anything else is beyond dumb so its prob scum.

If Talah flips town can we lynch Snork?

[AngryPidgeon]

If Talah flips town can we lynch Snork?

I'll admit I've been secretly paranoid about Snork over a few things.

Snork trying to CW Thadmiral and calling a stupid null-post a scumclaim in bold felt over the top dramatic. The point about you not wanting to be ISOd feels like a convenient case and he is sort of keeping you at arm's length instead of actually pushing on you?

I must not waver, Snork is still p town. Also, talah wont be flipping town.

[Nero Cain]

I agree that Snok's attempted CW to Thad is p bad. The leading wagon was Luca, so it was affectively an attempt at a not Luca lynch.