Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Hopefully the paraphrase is good enough. He basically just wanted to talk to Mollie but didn't get a chance to say more after she responded.

Can I get a paraphrase of the entire content from the QT from the beginning? It'd be helpful.

However, I can't help but shake the feeling that our (probably-)last scumbag is keeping Mollie and Muffin alive so they'll spend all their time focusing on each other.

Sadly not exactly alignment-indicative given number of conftown.

It's true that I'm not familiar with your Scum game, but I do know that you try to avoid bussing whenever possible, so your hard defense of SSK could be indicative of that.

Fair 'nuff. If you're expecting a defense, you'll be sorely disappointed, since I've none to give.

zMuff: Not saying you're wrong about your scumread on mollie, but if mollie were to be town, who'd be your pick for scum?

dun no

Get an idea?

What do you think the timing of Kaze's replace-out indicates about his alignment?

Absolutely nothing? I've been treating the slot as one entity.

also pretty sure mastin took AD's "heh" response (3589) as calling you a hypocrite

Basically, yeah. For chastising Dan for lack of leading, you've sure lacked it yourself, Iece.



Basic rundown of thoughts:

Mollie:

Plus side, tone and overall feel seems like town-mollie. Down-side, stances seem like scum and her absence in critical areas is concerning.

zMuff:

Plus side, arguments sound town. Down-side, doesn't look town. If that makes sense. (No, it doesn't. I need to get back to this.)

Skull:

Plus side, SSK investigation and looks like arguments come from town. Down side, SSK investigation and could be scum.

pidgey:

Plus side, all occupiers of the slot look highly highly town. Down side, they haven't really done much to keep townness, essentially.

Iece:

Plus side, JK result. Downside, lack of positive content throughout game.

Multitasking, so will come back with more.

[Iecerint]

SSK fakeclaimed a guilty on Skull?

Was SSK under pressure prior to that coming out (such that it looked like he would be lynched either way)?

[Iecerint]

also pretty sure mastin took AD's "heh" response (3589) as calling you a hypocrite

Basically, yeah. For chastising Dan for lack of leading, you've sure lacked it yourself, Iece.

I did not chastise Dan for not reading the game. That is not something that has occurred.

My criticism was that yesterday (and today -- hooray for being a prophet) Dan has made no serious effort to offer a perspective, support one wagon, indicate a wagon that is less good, etc., but then he started today by complaining about the Venmar lynch. It has nothing to do with reading the game. "Be the change you wish to see in the world," etc.

I suspect Dan is either a PR or someone who wants to be perceived as having a PR. But being coy about having a PR is kind of dumb when N1 mechanics already made you pretty town and a likely NK target. So I think the main real effect of his behavior if he's town is that it may lead him to get lynched very unnecessarily late game based on the reasoning that he lurked to let his failure to be NK'd be explained away.

It may come out that he just needs a small number of extra night phases to maximize his utility or whatever, which could justify his behavior. That's fine, but it's going to really make my eyebrow twitch if it happens to come together in the form of a 1/1 in lylo.

[Iecerint]

My current thoughts are that we lynch mollie for muffin or else lynch mastin for basically indicating that she is pretty much OK with lynching anyone (I guess?).

[Skullduggery]

I wasn't talking to myself in 3627, Mollie. Show me where you're coming from and help me figure you out. If you're tired of talking to Muffin, maybe you could try talking to me instead. I won't bite you unless I'm really hungry.

Have any scum flipped from that particular neighbor thread?

Aegor was in our neighborhood and he was the SK.

After checkng cephir's iso yet again i find myself greatly divided in mollie. I again think that slot is town, i dunno, the cephir call outs seem weird as fuck in there.

What "call outs" are you referring to? Post some quotes, please.

Also, its kinda weird how cephir had mastin as the biggest scum read too, dunno what to feel about that.

Well, we know that Cephrir flipped Scum, right? That should be enough to get started. Do you think it looks like Scum distancing or do you think it looks like Cephrir recognizing that Mastin is a threat and is trying to get rid of her?

"Everyone tell me why you'd debate yourself as town, contentwise"

Look at just about every post I made on Day 6 when I was refuting Venmar's herpaderp case on me. I think I did a pretty kickass job of explaining exactly why it makes no sense for me to be Scum.

I think this is why nked sangres cos you KNEW they would start looking elsewhere. they have all game and kept settling for compromise lynches but eventually they would have settled on YOU.

Do you think that Sangres dying last night specifically incriminates Muffin and no one else? Did nobody else have a compelling reason to kill Sangres?

I don't really see a reason for you to read Venmar that way as scum (e.g., going out of your way to describe the context of something he said that I said I found scummy, etc).

I don't follow you. Can you explain this in a different way?

lalalalalala

Yes, thank you. Very helpful, as always.

Let's see what we can do about getting you to contribute. You said you got an invention from AFB on Night 1, correct? What was it and what did you do with it? (I'm going to assume that nothing of significance happened since you only mentioned it in passing, but at this point in the game, it can't hurt to share this information with us.)

Since we're on the subject, would you care to elaborate on 2678 and 3155? You make it sound like you know that AFB gave (or tried to give) an invention to Mollie. How?

You may be kind of useless, but you're confirmed Town and are therefore a prime night-kill target. If you know useful information, you should share it while you still have a chance to do so.

What do you think the timing of Kaze's replace-out indicates about his alignment?

Absolutely nothing? I've been treating the slot as one entity.

So does that mean you disagree with the observation I made about Kaze's slot in 3606? Do you think I'm wrong to think that a Scum player would be foolish to replace out of the game right after gaining such an advantageous position?

SSK fakeclaimed a guilty on Skull?

Was SSK under pressure prior to that coming out (such that it looked like he would be lynched either way)?

In 2064, he said he tracked Sangres on Night 1 and me on Night 2 and saw both of us performing no action. His Night 1 action is confirmed thanks to Cabd Watching Sangres on Night 1, and I know that his Night 2 action is plausible since I don't have a night action. He was under some pressure at the time, but I don't recall his lynch being inevitable when he claimed his results.

You could theorize that SSK and I are Scum buddies and he tracked someone else on Night 2, but I explained why that's a cockamamie theory here.

[zMuffinMan]

even if you dismiss your sheeping to some dumb thing I ask you this, will this be consistent in all games?

why does this matter? if it were something that was consistent across every game i play with nacho (because i doubt there's anyone else willing to make a bet like that and keep it), at best it would mean it's an alignment neutral thing, ergo you thinking it's "scummy" is ridiculous.

when I asked you about your votes, that was me voicing suspicion of you cos it was standing out

no, it really wasn't. because you were literally calling me town in the same posts you were asking about it. that's not voicing suspicion.

[Iecerint]

scumMuffin would probably be happy with me providing rhetoric that could lead people to suspect Venmar, even if it's just me. Muffin instead discredited the reasons for my suspicion of Venmar. I think scumMuffin would probably like to undermine as many non-confirmed players as possible, especially with several living players being soft-confirmed. This is even more true because Venmar had enough suspicion elsewhere that adding me to the pile could make that wagon proceed to lynchpoint.

The summary of why you think it is unlikely for you to be scum with SSK is that him claiming no result on you means you can't fakeclaim most PRs. Accurate gloss?

[zMuffinMan]

I STILL say muffina's incessant trolling is town the only thing that gives me pause is how he is playing up to sangres who are just gobbling it up.

this is literally the last thing you say about it prior to D5, after i'd started suspecting you

in what way, shape or form is this "expressing suspicion"? you literally said you still think i'm town in spite of it

[zMuffinMan]

also, just fyi, you don't have an understanding of what i do as scum, iece. i tend to pick and choose my targets and defend the fuck out of everyone else when i'm scum. so i've done similar things to what i did with venmar as scum.

if i saw a path to endgame as scum that didn't require me lynching venmar, i would definitely do what i did there as scum.
'
i'm town, but your reasoning is faulty.

[zMuffinMan]

zMuff: Plus side, arguments sound town. Down-side, doesn't look town. If that makes sense. (No, it doesn't. I need to get back to this.)

for someone who claims to be able to read me, you really suck at reading me.

[zMuffinMan]

You make it sound like you know that AFB gave (or tried to give) an invention to Mollie. How?

AFB was pretty blatant about it - i'm pretty sure at one point in the game he even directly asked mollie to verify it

though i think it happened on N3 and there's a theory about global roleblock that night? (i don't know why it didn't happen N2 and if it did happen N2 i don't know why mollie wouldn't have received it)

[pirate mollie]

even if you dismiss your sheeping to some dumb thing I ask you this, will this be consistent in all games?

why does this matter? if it were something that was consistent across every game i play with nacho (because i doubt there's anyone else willing to make a bet like that and keep it), at best it would mean it's an alignment neutral thing, ergo you thinking it's "scummy" is ridiculous.

when I asked you about your votes, that was me voicing suspicion of you cos it was standing out

no, it really wasn't. because you were literally calling me town in the same posts you were asking about it. that's not voicing suspicion.

because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt at the time? it doesn't mean that I was not suspicious of you tho somehow you seem confused on some1 who was confused about how to read you at the time.

@ mastina

that was whole lot of hedge which is weird coming from a player who prides themsleves on lategame analysis :/

@ skull

I have had you as town and we have largely been staying away from each other until now. I don't like your push on me not 1 bit especially since it seems like you are missing all of the signals. and I don't know what to do with that.

@ iceyrent

muffina is dancing around and I cannot explain it. I just can't.

@ danny boy

if you abandon me and leave me here to die I will never forgive you. just ffs plz don't let muffina make it to endgame if you are still around.

[pirate mollie]

I didn't receive anything and I am too tired/lazy to look it up right now but I will look tomorrow cos I think he tried to and I think I have said so.

[Skullduggery]

The summary of why you think it is unlikely for you to be scum with SSK is that him claiming no result on you means you can't fakeclaim most PRs. Accurate gloss?

Not really. For starters, I don't think it's unlikely that SSK and I are partners; I

know

that that isn't the case.

If my explanation has too many ~words~, the main idea of what I'm trying to convey is that there was no benefit to SSK claiming that result on a partner. If I was Scum and SSK was my partner, all he would have done was hinder me while doing nothing to improve his own chances. It's an unnecessary gamble with no reward.

You make it sound like you know that AFB gave (or tried to give) an invention to Mollie. How?

AFB was pretty blatant about it - i'm pretty sure at one point in the game he even directly asked mollie to verify it

though i think it happened on N3 and there's a theory about global roleblock that night? (i don't know why it didn't happen N2 and if it did happen N2 i don't know why mollie wouldn't have received it)

Yeah, AFB said he tried to give Mollie an invention after Night 3, but ActionDan posted 3155 at the beginning of Day 6. Did he know that AFB tried to give Mollie an invention again after his unsuccessful first attempt? If so, how? That's what I want him to answer.

@ skull

I have had you as town and we have largely been staying away from each other until now. I don't like your push on me not 1 bit especially since it seems like you are missing all of the signals. and I don't know what to do with that.

What "signals" should I be seeing?

My push on you is nothing more than an attempt to figure out your alignment, but you seem to have a problem with that. Why?

[Iecerint]

The summary of why you think it is unlikely for you to be scum with SSK is that him claiming no result on you means you can't fakeclaim most PRs. Accurate gloss?

Not really. For starters, I don't think it's unlikely that SSK and I are partners; I

know

that that isn't the case.

If my explanation has too many ~words~, the main idea of what I'm trying to convey is that there was no benefit to SSK claiming that result on a partner. If I was Scum and SSK was my partner, all he would have done was hinder me while doing nothing to improve his own chances. It's an unnecessary gamble with no reward.

This isn't a "gotcha" with the wording or whatever. I am just making sure I did not miss anything substantive about what you said.

I'm pretty sure I did summarize the mechanism of him hindering you that you stipulated, so I guess it's basically accurate.

[zMuffinMan]

because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt at the time? it doesn't mean that I was not suspicious of you

actually, when you call someone town, yes it does actually mean you're not suspicious of them

unless things are different for you?

do you usually call people you think are scum town?

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, ok, if you want to say you were suspicious of me while calling me town, then fine i guess?

i don't really care either way since it seems rather irrelevant

did you have a point here?

also, before i forget

I thought I said more than I did, I certainly made notes of it on my spreadsheet.

copy paste all of those notes now please

[Himself]

because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt at the time? it doesn't mean that I was not suspicious of you

actually, when you call someone town, yes it does actually mean you're not suspicious of them

unless things are different for you?

do you usually call people you think are scum town?

ALL OF THE TIME. SOMETIMES I JUST WANT TO SEE WHAT THEY WILL DO OR HOW OTHER PLAYERS REACT.

I will look at things a certain way to see how it fits with what I am looking at. I don't expect you to understand but hey I am a shit player who just happens to usually get nked early and sometimes accidentally gets reads right.

I don't give a shit anymore. between your tunneling without making an effort to even remotely figure me out or what I am trying to say, skull's fucking retarded obtuseness and opportunistic push which can easily come from scum and mastina's hedgey mchedgeville post the game is impossible to figure out. I have no fucking clue and I am not even going to pretend that I do. I am at my strongest at the beginning of a game the game gets murkier if I am alive for too long it is why I suck at lylo.

but I don't really expect you to understand this or to care really you have been acting like a giant douche for a while now. <--- that looks scummy to me too! cos scum will do that in order to unbalance their opponent.

so whatevs another scummy for you cos town is too retarded to see what the fuck you are doing. at least with my lynch mebbe some1 will actually listen to me for once altho I highly doubt it.

[zMuffinMan]

copy paste all of the notes you took on the game from this spreadsheet you were supposedly keeping

[zMuffinMan]

preferably in the next 5-10 mins

[pirate mollie]

copy paste all of the notes you took on the game from this spreadsheet you were supposedly keeping

okay

not sure how this will look since it is a googledoc spreadsheet:

players replacements claims flips neighbors d1 reads d2 reads

1. ActionDan something with sangres 1. ActionDan - town mebbe sk with sangres
2. Aegor sk why can I never get roles like that neighbor 2. Aegor - waffle scum
3. Angry Frat Bros (BROseidon + AngryPidgeon) 2nd neighborhood 3. Angry Frat Bros (BROseidon + AngryPidgeon) - town but his last post and unresponse is weird town
4. Brian Skies gooner neighbor 4. Gooner Brian Skies - unsure unsure
5. Cabd 1 shot watcher; watched sangres dan, himself, pie and mafiassk visited them 5. Cabd - I feel is town.
6. Cephrir mafiare animated of magdalene 6. Cephrir - town TOWN
7. Flandre Scarlet mafia blue testament
8. Kagami vt 8. Kagami - unsure
9. Kazekirimaru 9. Kazekirimaru - town! unsure
10. macmollie (mac + pirate mollie) vt neighbor 10. macmollie (mac + pirate mollie) - town!!! \o/
11. MafiaSSK mafia red testament 11. MafiaSSK - town! TOWN
12. mastin2 12. mastin2 - leaning town town
13. Metal Sonic 2nd neighborhood 13. Metal Sonic - he is being weird in this game in that his reads are fragmented. unsure
14. orcinus_theoriginal hater something oh wait jk 14. orcinus_theoriginal - I simply don't know. unsure mebbe scum thinking yeah
15. pieguyn bodyguard 15. pieguyn - eh
16. sangres (fferyllt + Nachomamma8) something with dan eighbor 16. sangres (fferyllt + Nachomamma8) - town even tho nacho is ignoring me! nacho screamed town but fery gives me the willies
17. Skullduggery eighbor 17. Skullduggery - town town town strongest town read
18. Varsoon town 18. Varsoon - unsure
19. Venmar 2nd neighborhood 19. Venmar - unsure leaning town town mebbe? dunno
20. zMuffinMan 20. zMuffinMan - TOWN unsure seems like he is trying to hard with nacho

[ActionDan]

Oh I suppose I should add that it's very likely town has another pr so if one claims we should treat it as town

[pirate mollie]

it doesn't look as bad as I thought.

I got busy so no notes past d3 except for flips. the strikethroughs, colours and bolded did not copypasta

[pirate mollie]

why the fuck am I talking to scum

/kills self

[zMuffinMan]

wait, those are all the notes on the game? i meant stuff like the notes you were apparently taking on players like, i dunno, flandre, that you didn't post in the thread