MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)

[Flipping Awesome]

1. Some things that are natural to say as Town are just as easy to say in a natural way as scum? I'm sure he sincerely believes Zed has a strong Town game. I don't feel that the instance of his defense of Zed or explanation for it is particularly indicative of Town motivation for his behavior. I find it odd that his analysis of Zed in that defense references motivation as something relevant . . . we sorta disagreed on that when it came to something regarding me (i.e., he seemed to reject the idea that motivation analysis could be relevant to me showing the so-called beetlejuice tell).

2. I didn't think that his desire to change his attitude from the Reckoning game was alignment-dependent? Unless you think he would have abandoned any notion of trying that on drawing scum because e.g. he felt he could manipulate the game better in the old, more acerbic mode he mentions? I don't know, I'm just not seeing these specific interactions you mention as the most relevant or interesting aspects of UT's play. There's so much he's not saying, which is part of what I'm seeing as a problem.

I don't see why UT would jump in to defend Zed if he saw Zed taking heat. He

could

do it as scum but I've played with him as scum before and I found him to be much more opportunistic and blatant about pursuing a scum agenda. The rest of his posts, I guess it is possible he could fake it but it overall felt genuine to me.

Cerulean, I am concerned with Empire head and also with some of your D1 play:

- Your lack of presence towards the end of D1. It just didn't feel like the sort of thing you would do where you vote Plum and let a lynch on a townread (Katsuki) go through. Why didn't you try to take a larger role in working with the town to secure a lynch not on one of your townreads? I get that you were strapped for time and it is probably unfair for me to bring this up but when you did have time, I expected you to use it more efficiently.

- Your play here and interactions with me feeling different than in Black Flag Nightless where you were intent on getting me into the game and sharing my thoughts. I don't get the same vibes here even accounting for reduced activity. Do you plan to be active at any point in the future?

- Penguin and I both have meta on CDB and though he occasionally lurks as scum, that's not the most distinguishing feature. In fact, Penguin describes his scum play as "try-hard" and from my experience with town-him and reading games with scum-him where he and Penguin were scumbuddies, I agree with her description. Can you link the games you are using to meta him?

- I also expected you to take a stronger role in defending UT if as you say, he is a townread and you are confident about this read but if you are still catching up,

----

Pless's catch up is decent enough and leans town to me. Regarding the replacement issue, I won't bring it up again because it may not be fair. It is not that I was disappointed or anything. Just wondered why the people that signed up for being replacements didn't automatically replace in. I am quite happy and looking forward to playing with you.
~ F-16

[Shadoweh]

unvote

[/quote]
Why the Unvote?
What are your thoughts on Kanye, Tim and LLD?[/quote]
I am not sold on UT scum. Kayne and Tim, nothing has really jumped out at me though Kayne suggesting a 5 man team in an 18 player game is
Maybe he's going for one of those fake derp tells. It also sounds like he's trying to chain lynch Venmar and I. I think LLD is prob scum, she hasn't been doing squat since early day1. [/quote]
I mean, really the answer is 'his posts' but if you want me to point out the specific lines that make me twitch..
Yeah, see, I changed my mind about the bloo thing, and also bringing that up just reminds me of being angry so you probably shouldn't do that. <_< I'm ignoring you because your scumminess makes it hard to concentrate on reading, but keep flailing around randomly, it's cute.

In all seriousness the kayne wagon collapsed because no one is willing to press on something besides looks scummeh. I don't actually mind his posts today so idc he's not Tim Howard and I want to concentrate for once on someone who literally no one is town-reading anymore. Let's just gooooo

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 2, VC 14

Venmar - (1):

Cerulean

Tim Howard - (5):

kanyeknowsbest, Shadoweh, xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod, chamber

Untrod Tripod - (3):

Plum, Tim Howard, Venmar,

Plum - (1):

Nobody Special

kanyeknowsbest - (2):

Plessiez, Zdenek

Not voting - (3):

Flipping Awesome, Lady Lambdadelta,

Nero Cain

With

15

alive it takes

8

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:

11th of May at 8:10pm

Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-05-11 15:10:00)

No one is V/la.[/area]

Prodding xRECKONERx

[xRECKONERx]

i dislike the ut votes

[Untrod Tripod]

you say, while voting me

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Day 2, VC 14

Venmar - (1):

Cerulean

Tim Howard - (5):

kanyeknowsbest, Shadoweh, xRECKONERx, Untrod Tripod, chamber

Untrod Tripod - (3):

Plum, Tim Howard, Venmar,

Plum - (1):

Nobody Special

kanyeknowsbest - (2):

Plessiez, Zdenek

Not voting - (3):

Flipping Awesome, Lady Lambdadelta,

Nero Cain

With

15

alive it takes

8

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:

11th of May at 8:10pm

Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-05-11 15:10:00)

No one is V/la.[/area]

Prodding xRECKONERx

i dislike the ut votes

you say, while voting me

Wat

[Untrod Tripod]

reck and I are scum together

hadn't you heard?

[Cerulean]

So you do or don't think that it's scummy? Now or ever? I don't see what the time frame has to do with the truth of his statement though.

Of course I don't think reading the game is a scumtell. And I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say: Venmar and I have little to no experience with each other (the only one I can recall being a while ago) so it is really weird that he is deciding to apply a tell that's supposedly of mine given that.

Shadoweh, Empire, Plum, Chamber: I need your help for a moment.

I've been looking back at the first day, and there's some thoughts I've had.

Firstly, Reck and UT's interactions are off for me. Really off.

Secondly, UT's interactions with the Katsuki/Tim Howard/Plum wagons are very weird.

Can someoone go back and confirm I'm not going insane?

1) The one thing I see off about the Reck/UT interactions, on a reread, is that sometimes I feel as though UT is talking to Reck as if he already knows Reck's town. It's hard to describe but it's like UT is trying to play Evil Chancellor to Reck in posts like #1073 and the ensuing ones. I want to go over what Tammy thinks tomorrow when she feels better (she told me she's sick/exhausted from work and can't really post today) since I know she's felt really strong on her UT townread. On Reck's end, the interactions with UT seem pretty much in line with what I've seen in the past.

2) I'm really bad at looking at wagons so I won't be much help here. Only thing of note to me is his placement on the Tim Howard wagon when I believe he was still scumreading my slot.

pleasiez is probably scum

Why?

---

@F-16:

1) Putting aside the time constraints, I frankly don't really feel it's my place to strongarm anything when I'm not super confident in my reads and I'm way more willing to listen to people who's town games I respect, like Nacho's (see: my sheeping him and Llamarble in Wingate Mansion onto Desperado even though I thought he was town). My townread on Katsuki was pretty weak and I was trying to discuss the read with Nacho a bit more particularly because I had no sense of direction in my game D1 and was hoping for some guidance, as lame as shit as that sounds. Sometimes, I'm not the uber confident player I was in Black Flag or in my games with Regfan.

2) I do plan to be more active but the truth of the matter is this game's gotten me incredibly demotivated as town in a way I never experienced before. I joined this game in this hydra despite my time constraints because I was amped to play with my friends, all of whom are great players. Then the infighting happened and Tammy left and it just completely sapped my determination. I'm hoping that now that Tammy's back and everything's calm that I can come back in and hit the thread hard like my Burden of ObvTown demands.

3) I think you and penguin are completely, totally, 100% wrong about CDB's meta. My experience with him is that he's tryhard

town

(see: The Wire and The Red Wedding). Compare with his engagement level in this game where he was scum. I think CDB in this game fits more the town model here and Pless's entrance into the game only reinforce that feeling.

4) Um, putting aside the fact that it seems your sentence is unfinished, see above re: discussing UT with Tammy.

What are your updated thoughts on Tim Howard? Part of me really wants to trust CDB's Nexus read but it's like every bone in my body aches to see them lynched whenever I read the slot's posts. Would also be interested in your thoughts on their meta's.

[Flipping Awesome]

Heh, well, I guess however we're interpreting it, we're both concluding CDB-slot is towny, so I'll take it.

But F-16 and I keep playing chicken with one another saying the other's welcome to move our vote onto Tim Howard, so.

VOTE: Tim Howard

--PA

[xRECKONERx]

you say, while voting me

[Nero Cain]

Yeah, see, I changed my mind about the bloo thing, and also bringing that up just reminds me of being angry so you probably shouldn't do that. <_< I'm ignoring you because your scumminess makes it hard to concentrate on reading, but keep flailing around randomly, it's cute.

ummmmmm I don't think you know what flailing around is. Even if you think I'm super duper scummy I don't see how in the world it would make this game hard to read.

So, IYO I'm super scummy right? Why are you not attempting to talk to me? I mean maybe there's a misunderstanding or something. I feel as if aren't trying to sort me at all and just snipe at me from the sidelines so you can hop on my wagon [if one ever happens] and call it a day. F-16 and PA were doing that earlier as well...

[Shadoweh]

Why would I talk to you if you're scum? That doesn't sound productive..

[Nero Cain]

There is a huge hole in the logic.

[Plessiez]

I'm really bad at looking at wagons so I won't be much help here. Only thing of note to me is his placement on the Tim Howard wagon when I believe he was still scumreading my slot.

"Him" is meant to be UT, right?

I'm rereading day 1 again at the moment and I don't think UT ever voted for Tim Howard then. I'm ... actually not sure if UT was scumreading you as of 745 or not. (On the one hand he says you've "been towntelling lately"; on the other hand your early posts are said to be "incredibly scummy" and he says he'd support a wagon on you. And after this he doesn't really talk about you again, except for a throwaway line about not having played much with Tammy.) But I haven't got the impression UT was scum-reading you today.

Or was "he" meant to be somebody other than UT?

What are your updated thoughts on Tim Howard? Part of me really wants to trust CDB's Nexus read but it's like every bone in my body aches to see them lynched whenever I read the slot's posts. Would also be interested in your thoughts on their meta's.

This is pretty close to my current thoughts about Tim Howard. On the one hand, it feels like this is probably the wagon that should have happened on day 1 (the Katsuki stuff really came from nowhere much in the last couple of RL days; Tim Howard had been a solidly popular wagon for a lot longer than that). But CDB was very confident in his town read on Nexus and sangres also had Tim Howard as a "solid town read" (in 821) and that makes me worry I'm just conflating "I don't like this approach to mafia" with "this slot is probably scum".

(On the subject of meta, I don't suppose you have a good links for town- and scum-Venmar?)

[Plessiez]

I'm rereading day 1 again at the moment and I don't think UT ever voted for Tim Howard then.

Oh, wait, that's nonsense. He voted Tim in 408 (which, yes, is presumably while he was still scum-reading you).

[Tim Howard]

1) The one thing I see off about the Reck/UT interactions, on a reread, is that sometimes I feel as though UT is talking to Reck as if he already knows Reck's town. It's hard to describe but it's like UT is trying to play Evil Chancellor to Reck in posts like #1073 and the ensuing ones. I want to go over what Tammy thinks tomorrow when she feels better (she told me she's sick/exhausted from work and can't really post today) since I know she's felt really strong on her UT townread. On Reck's end, the interactions with UT seem pretty much in line with what I've seen in the past.

You should vote UT then! It's good for the soul.

Heh, well, I guess however we're interpreting it, we're both concluding CDB-slot is towny, so I'll take it.

But F-16 and I keep playing chicken with one another saying the other's welcome to move our vote onto Tim Howard, so.

VOTE: Tim Howard

--PA

You are such a card. plz remove thx

quote="In post 1538, Plessiez"]that makes me worry I'm just conflating "I don't like this approach to mafia" with "this slot is probably scum".[/quote]What do you think is off about our approach to mafia? Cause I'm not really doing anything in my approach that I don't usually do, soooo.

I feel like we have become the fallback wagon. Nobody thinks we're thaaaaaat town, but nobody reeeeeally thinks we're scum (except for one or two people). UT wagon is the only one that's gained traction today with like, actual cases and scumminess today, but it appears to have gotten stuck in the mud, so people are going 'eh, fuck it, we'll just lynch this kinda null guy I guess.' Nooooot a huge fan.

As to claiming - we'll do it when we find it necessary, or at the very least when more than just shadoweh is asking us to. *shrug*

[Tim Howard]

dammit quotes

[Plessiez]

Looking a bit more closely at the Katsuki lynch. I said earlier that I found it odd that Katsuki was lynched over Tim Howard; Tim Howard had seemed the more popular wagon going up into the last couple of real life days. Looking at it a bit more closely, I think that's not quite right -- there were obviously more people

voting

for Tim Howard, but when you actually look over people's posts you'll find that both wagons were basically as popular as each other until near the end of the day.

For example, here's one vote count about 48 hours before the day ended:

Spoiler: Vote Count 35

Day 1, VC 35

Tim Howard - (5):

Zdenek, Katsuki, Plum, kanyeknowsbest, xRECKONERx

Venmar - (3):

Nero Cain

, Untrod Tripod, chamber

Shadoweh - (1):

ChannelDelibird

xRECKONERx - (3):

Lady Lambdadelta, Sixty, Venmar

Plum - (1):

Flipping Awesome

Katsuki - (3):

sangres, Shadoweh, Tim Howard

Not voting - (2):

Cerulean, Nobody Special

[/area]

As well as the five people voting Tim Howard, there were at least five people who had said they were prepared to do so. These five were Shadoweh (see 1048), Sixty (820), Cerulean (450, for example), Nobody Special (418) and Flipping Awesome (748). There were also at least a couple of people who hadn't said anything to suggest they were town-reading TH or were otherwise reluctant to lynch him. So that was definitely a possible lynch yesterday.

Other than the three Katsuki voters, I count four people who had said they might switch to him. These are Sixty (970), CDB (451), Nero (at least that's implied in 1050) and Reckoner (994). A few other people had either said nothing about him or at least said they weren't town-reading him, too. So while this isn't the lynch I'd have

expected

to happen two days before deadline, it's not really a huge shock that it did (especially once you factor in the double-vote thing).

However, take a look at the final vote count.

Spoiler: Vote Count 42

Day 1, VC 42

Tim Howard - (3):

Zdenek, Plum, xRECKONERx

Venmar - (2):

chamber, Katsuki

xRECKONERx - (1):

Lady Lambdadelta

Plum - (2):

Flipping Awesome, Cerulean

Katsuki - (10):

sangres, Shadoweh, Tim Howard, ChannelDelibird, Nobody Special, Venmar, Sixty, Untrod Tripod,

Nero Cain

, Sheep Majiffy or Thor

sangres - (1):

kanyeknowsbest

Not voting - (0):

[/area]

A few of the votes actually cast seem odd given the opinions people had expressed earlier in the day. I haven't been able to see anything in the final two RL days that might explain the switches either, but I'll look for that next. (I know that Venmar's double-vote reveal happened between the two vote-counts I've highlighted, and that Reckoner at least ended up town-reading him because of that, but I can't think of anything else interesting that happened.)

In particular, the votes for Katsuki I'm puzzled by are Nobody Special's (he'd been suspicious for Tim Howard for a while and I don't think he'd talked about Katsuki before casting an unexplained vote for him), Venmar's (he'd attacked Nero for wanting to 'policy lynch' Katsuki for a while, notably in 590, and the only reason he gives for voting Katsuki is that "Tim Howard remains a strong town read") and Untold Tripod (who was pretty dismissive of the Katsuki wagon in 793 and 1035 and elsewhere and also offered no reasons for switching to Katsuki when he did). Would be interested to hear these people's reasons for voting Katsuki.

The other two odd votes are Kanye's (as discussed at length by Zdenek - he moved off the Tim Howard wagon at its peak to a one-vote vanity wagon that he then made no effort to push) and Cerulean's (as Flipping Awesome says above, Cerulean was scum-reading Tim Howard and town-reading Katsuki, yet ended up voting for a different scum-read who was obviously not a viable lynch). I find both of these votes slightly troubling, but what Empire says about being swayed by CDB's strong town read rings true to me (and Cerulean's posts are pretty solidly town) while Kanye's reaction to being called out on his vote (that is: lie, bluster, then lurk the wagon away) is pretty awful.

[Shadoweh]

I refuse to even look at something based around Tim Howard's flip when he's still sitting right there.
also I feel like quoting something about how long it takes to make a fakeclaim. Someone else put this douchebag at L-1 so we can stop wasting time, he's already at L-2.

[Plessiez]

(Fixed the broken quote for ease of reading.)

that makes me worry I'm just conflating "I don't like this approach to mafia" with "this slot is probably scum".

What do you think is off about our approach to mafia? Cause I'm not really doing anything in my approach that I don't usually do, soooo.

Main things that have bothered me, off the top of my head, are (1) the way you attacked Sixty for upsetting Tammy, without ever seeming to acknowledge that you thought Tammy was scum or that you actually thought Tammy was doing the very thing Tierce claimed she was doing at the start of that whole exchange); (2) town-reading Venmar for "frustration", again ignoring Tammy's whole angry-replace-out thing; (3) saying that Tierce and Reckoner had both made "good points" in their day 1 argument, but refusing to say what those points were; (4) apparently scum-reading people purely because they've said they're suspicious of your town-reads (I say 'apparently' because I have a memory of you denying this but I haven't gone back to check yet) and (5) your reasons for pushing Katsuki seem ... well, hypocritical at best.

I just don't generally feel that your various stances and posts make sense when taken as a whole (although I'm aware that that's not really something you can respond to). I had a couple of specific day 1 posts I wanted to ask you about though - will get to them soon I hope.

UT wagon is the only one that's gained traction today with like, actual cases and scumminess today, but it appears to have gotten stuck in the mud, so people are going 'eh, fuck it, we'll just lynch this kinda null guy I guess.' Nooooot a huge fan.

Thoughts on Kanye, please?

[Plessiez]

I refuse to even look at something based around Tim Howard's flip when he's still sitting right there.

Assuming that's addressed at me, I'm not making any assumptions about Tim Howard's flip .

[Nobody Special]

I think Tim Howard's wishy-washy wibbly-wobbly stance on being a lukewarm wagon is fluff and nonsense. Very scum, much AtE.

As if I needed another reason to vote them.

unvote

Vote: Tim Howard

L-1. Claim, please.

[Shadoweh]

Let me put it another way, who wanted to vote one over the other has more signifigance imo if we actually know the alignment of the first. Looking at your comments on Timmy Hortons here you're mirroring what I said about him RE: His thoughts don't make sense to me when looked at together instead of one at a time.

[Tim Howard]

Heh, well, I guess however we're interpreting it, we're both concluding CDB-slot is towny, so I'll take it.

But F-16 and I keep playing chicken with one another saying the other's welcome to move our vote onto Tim Howard, so.

VOTE: Tim Howard

--PA

I'm really bad at looking at wagons so I won't be much help here. Only thing of note to me is his placement on the Tim Howard wagon when I believe he was still scumreading my slot.

"Him" is meant to be UT, right?

I'm rereading day 1 again at the moment and I don't think UT ever voted for Tim Howard then. I'm ... actually not sure if UT was scumreading you as of 745 or not. (On the one hand he says you've "been towntelling lately"; on the other hand your early posts are said to be "incredibly scummy" and he says he'd support a wagon on you. And after this he doesn't really talk about you again, except for a throwaway line about not having played much with Tammy.) But I haven't got the impression UT was scum-reading you today.

Or was "he" meant to be somebody other than UT?

What are your updated thoughts on Tim Howard? Part of me really wants to trust CDB's Nexus read but it's like every bone in my body aches to see them lynched whenever I read the slot's posts. Would also be interested in your thoughts on their meta's.

This is pretty close to my current thoughts about Tim Howard. On the one hand, it feels like this is probably the wagon that should have happened on day 1 (the Katsuki stuff really came from nowhere much in the last couple of RL days; Tim Howard had been a solidly popular wagon for a lot longer than that). But CDB was very confident in his town read on Nexus and sangres also had Tim Howard as a "solid town read" (in 821) and that makes me worry I'm just conflating "I don't like this approach to mafia" with "this slot is probably scum".

(On the subject of meta, I don't suppose you have a good links for town- and scum-Venmar?)

Would vote Kanye. Lurked his way through D1 and lurked his way out of the beginnings of a wagon on D2, which is unlike the kanye I've seen elsewhere.

(1) the way you attacked Sixty for upsetting Tammy, without ever seeming to acknowledge that you thought Tammy was scum or that you actually thought Tammy was doing the very thing Tierce claimed she was doing at the start of that whole exchange

Going back it looks like I never actually said this in thread, but our response to Sixty there had nothing to do with whether they were correct about Tammy's behavior, and everything to do with the fact that they were assholes about it. Not sure why this was a scumtell anyway, since that entire conversation was pretty tangential to the game anyway; we mentioned more than once that it wasn't alignment-indicative in any way.

(2) town-reading Venmar for "frustration", again ignoring Tammy's whole angry-replace-out thing

They're different people. I've seen Tammy get frustrated multiple times before, it's null on her to me. She's kind of an easily frustrated person, so far as I can tell. Venmar doesn't come across as someone who gets frustrated like that a whole lot.

(3) saying that Tierce and Reckoner had both made "good points" in their day 1 argument, but refusing to say what those points were

I've covered why I did this already in my discussion with Reck. If you're gonna call that scummy, then it's your right to call it scummy, but you're stupid for doing so.

(4) apparently scum-reading people purely because they've said they're suspicious of your town-reads (I say 'apparently' because I have a memory of you denying this but I haven't gone back to check yet)

I did deny this you are correct sir!

(5) your reasons for pushing Katsuki seem ... well, hypocritical at best.

Katsuki ignored it while it was happening. He posted

during the argument

and didn't mention it at all. Meanwhile, I read it later, and don't particularly want to read it ever again. There is a difference.


Shadoweh, L-1 is not Magical Claim Zone (shocking I know). I said we'd claim when we feel it necessary, and I meant it. Stop being obtuse.

P-Edit: for fuck's sake, NS, will you do a goddamned thing? Ugh. And no, not claiming for captain lurkpants either.

[Tim Howard]

I don't know why the first two posts quoted were in that post. wtf MS