Tales of You (Endgame)

[pieguyn]

How about instead of saying shit like this, you hold people accountable to their actions?

Serious question.

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

(((BRO)))

this is pretty much exactly how I felt in xenosaga. although in that game it wasn't exclusively the same thing (me being distracted by having a PR and lying about half of it and then getting nervous and objectively playing bad as a result was part of it), but I think I've felt a similar way to the way you felt here, although it's not my place to say whether it was to that extent

and I was like the only one who was standing up for it

[pieguyn]

Also I feel like I was getting on the right track when I tried to approach the game differently and looked at the wagons. Maybe I would have even gotten a scum read right! Who knows, but I like to tell myself I would have.

I feel bad for getting worried Falcon was scum going for the lynch on FoxHound yesterday, but I'm not sure they would have actually gotten lynched anyway, so :/

Sorry.

tbh once you started pulling up all those votecounts I was really impressed by how obvious the scumteam was from a voting angle

all the scum were on every single mislynch besides mastin, and everyone who was on a counterwagon to Nacho on D4 was scum

that's 4 scum votes on the D1 and D3 wagons and 3 on the D5 wagon

holy shit

this game is an example of why scum voting influence is more powerful than it appears

[Katsuki]

Welp the next item on the revenge agenda is getting back at Iec/Nacho/Katsuki for that 3 room game.

LOL WASNT THIS GAME ENOUGH?

OK FINE JUST YERKY AND NACHO THEN.

YOU BETTER BE ON MY SCUMTEAM IN MOS-VITATIONAL

<3

[AngryPidgeon]

all the scum were on every single mislynch besides mastin, and everyone who was on a counterwagon to Nacho on D4 was scum

I wasnt on Magenta or Mastin

[3dicerolling]

Sorry to my slot (AP) for putting you in such a crappy position. I got busy and simply lacked the time to keep. Congrats to the scum team.

[Clyton]

GG everyone

Had I had time to stay in the game, I would've continued playing up to Mastin and draw this game out further in a famine-like tactic. Only when PA came in and started to accuse Mastin of being scum is when the game actually moved on.

I didn't know what I was thinking when I made my posts before I replaced out. The reads list was putrid, but I put it up anyways cause lol.

[DeasVail]

Woah, we won? GO SCUM!

[mastin2]

(Still planning on writing the Ballad of Tales, revised edition, btw.)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Read the scum thread (finally). Setup-wise, I really hate having a godfather role. It is a rarely ever a good play to lynch a cop confirmed innocent and anytime they get investigated, it would be incredibly difficult for town to win. If it wasn't for the role, AP would have lynched D3 even without Katsuki's investigate. It didn't seem like it mattered because Penguin and Fox survived and won but the game would have actually turned out differently if we lynched AP and associative tells would have helped us more from there. I feel like it is a dumb role to include in any mafia game.

[Kagami]

I hate GFs too, but I actually think they're sort of ok in a "cabd game," since mod meta gives you a pretty strong prior that there's likely to be a godfather in the game. At least there isn't a role here that can cause a player to gain the Los Vegas role.

My general opinion is that best practice in a setup using a godfather to weaken the cop is to straight-up tell the town that there's a godfather (or just tell the cop that, and inform the GF that the cop is aware he exists).

[Cabd]

Once again, i point to the disclaimer that was placed in the signups thread for a reason. And also mod meta yes.

[BROseidon]

Mod meta and warning that the setup has red herrings don't justify an implicitly bad and unfun role being in the game, though.

Like, there are a shitton of ways to nerf cop power in ways that aren't anti-fun.

[PeregrineV]

Wow, what a roller coaster ride. Fun game, and actually led to moments of frustration, but I at least got 2 of my townreads and one scumread correct. I'll count that as a Pyrrhic victory.

@Cabd

- thanks for modding. Glad you were able to manage all the weird role/age interactions.

Haven't finished all the pages, but

@CF

- they keep saying you knew AP wasn't what he claimed, but never said it in-thread. What's up with that?

@Magenta-

why didn't you post in our neighborhood?

The only funny (afterthought) I can say about day1 was that I didn't expect to be the NK (since I was the primary wagon of the day), and I wasn't worried about being vigged because I was the vig!

[Katsuki]

Godfathers have always been relatively common yet everyone here sounds like they've never played a Godfather game before. :/

[Tammy]

How did JSU track AP night two if he was a ninja?

[Kagami]

The problem with godfathers is not that they're incredibly uncommon and unexpected, it's that it's sufficiently unlikely that a player whose been cop inno'd would actually be scum that it's a terrible idea to lynch them.

Nobody is a scumhunting god; being right even 60% of the time would be pretty awesome. Given that you anticipate being wrong 40+% of the time, whereas a cop innocent is wrong, like, 5% of the time, which do you go with?

You can't even say, "O, he's just trolling now, he must be a godfather!" because peoples' playstyle tends to change radically even as town once they've been inno'd. Godfathers are just a stupid role unless you want the town to just disregard cop investigations altogether, in which case it's better to simply not put a cop in the game.

GFs are also terrible because they punish the town viciously for making a good decision (investigating scum).

[BROseidon]

The frequency of godfathers is irrelevant to whether their a good design choice. They were an early attempt to fix the problems with cops, and much better fixes have been developed since then (our role was already gated by 2 of them, even night and the lack of ability to distinguish between a guilty, being blocked, and someone who didn't go anywhere.)

[BROseidon]

they're. I can't spell.

Also, the argument for/against millers is somewhat more interesting, since they actually have less binary play. I used to be super-hardline "millers are terrible," but I don't think that's necessarily the case. The fact that they appear as frequently as they do is kind of bad, though (since it means people are balancing their cops in lazy ways, and it makes the scum fake claiming miller gambit less viable when you're basically guaranteed a miller and maybe a PGO in every large game).

[Kagami]

Millers are reasonable because they put the power to reveal how cop investigations might be deceived into the hands of the town.

Godfathers don't.

[Katsuki]

GFs are also terrible because they punish the town viciously for making a good decision (investigating scum).

I disagree. Town deserve to be punished if they just incorrectly sheep results. Same shit as trusting cop investigations (cop sanity never confirmed).

It's the same principal of a last remaining scum ninja being tracked, producing a false innocent, or sheeping an insane cop.

[BROseidon]

The game implicitly favors scum over town. PRs exist to favor town; there shouldn't be traps that fuck over town by outright lying to them.

Ninjas are also a bad solution to trackers, which don't even need a solution in the first place (There's already counter play in a tracker "guilty" because you can talk your way out of it).

Cop sanity was another poor solution to the cop problem. The best solution to the cop problem is to either not use cops or to heavily gate their power.

[Kagami]

If investigations aren't intended to be trusted, then the setup needs to be balanced accordingly, which would mean 3 scum tops.

[BROseidon]

Or you give town a metric fuckton of power elsewhere.

People forget that 11:2 mountainous is moderately scumsided (which means 13:4 mountainous is hilariously scumsided). Town power needs to substantially outweigh scum power to balance shit out.

[fferyllt]

This is some good reinforcement for why I value reads over nearly anything else in mafia most of the time. I learned to play mafia in an environment where something like 90% of the games had godfathers. I never wholesale trusted a cop inno until a godfather flipped.

Still don't. And this is the 2nd game I've played ending this month where a godfather inno result contributed to a town loss in part because town players were reluctant to look at the person's play - behavior - and think about the wincon the play fit or something.

[AngryPidgeon]

The town power wasn't trivial though lol.

If I got lynched d2, scum would have lost. Almost 100% guarantee. If you don't like swingy games, play mini normals.