[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[BBmolla]

Any interest in a setup making contest?

[Bicephalous Bob]

yeah might as well give it a purpose

[wgeurts]

If we are making a setup contest I nominate Bad Cop, Insane Cop.

[Bicephalous Bob]

X Civilians

-Nightless.
-Civilians win when the King is dead.
-The King wins alone when he outlives all Ministers.
-The Ministers win when the King and at least one Minister is alive and the King and living Ministers are at least 50% of the living players.
-At the start of the game, The King gets the name of a random Minister. Once that Minister is dead, he gets a new name. If only two Ministers are left and the one who isn't confirmed to the King is lynched, the King wins alone.
-Ministers have daytalk.

Edit: Fixed so the King doesn't sell the ministers out when they're about to win.

What should the X be?

[GreyICE]

I dislike any game that comes down to the play of one player. But if you're going to do it, Micro game.

1 King
3 Ministers
5 Civilians

Give short deadlines (like 3-5 days) so it doesn't suffer from nightless paralysis, and change the win condition so that ministers win when they're half of the population or more (don't count the king).

[TierShift]

Hehehe...love the name.

Now shifter can just lynch town for two days after which he suicides. leaving 5p LyLo and very likely winning.

I imagine that'd be the optimal way to play it, which may not be all that bad now that I'm doing the math.

But that is totally not how I want it to be played. I have a solution: claiming shifter results in a modkill! That should solve all issues.

May want to consider giving Shifter a better chance at not accidentally being nightkilled those first two nights. Not sure how without it significantly changing balance of the setup.

Maybe make him a Night 1 and 2 commuter?

But then mafia know who he is...and I don't want confirmable town roles like 1-shot BP to counteract that. Maybe make it 5-1-3 nightless?

[BBmolla]

But that is totally not how I want it to be played. I have a solution: claiming shifter results in a modkill! That should solve all issues.

No. Any time you make rules off of what a person "claims" it's dumb as all hell.

What if I claimed "I'm not town."? Does that count as claiming Shifter? It's unquantifiable.

Nightless is probably a step in the correct direction.

[TierShift]

Kingmaker explicitly forbids t claim kingmaker on grounds of modkill.

Let's just say claiming is not allowed, since everyone should claim VT anyway. Any attempt to circumvent the rule as you just described should be rewarded with a modkill too.

[Bicephalous Bob]

i thought you were joking

can a player claim he's 100% sure someone is scum?

[TierShift]

If they use it to claim shifter, no. If it's a moron who is always 100% sure in his reads but in fact a below-average scumhunter, yes.

You get it, don't try to circumvent the rule.

[GreyICE]

Any time you are looking for a specific

outcome

for a setup, you've made a bad setup.

People are never going to play how you want them to play. Make an interesting setup and interesting results will occur.

[TierShift]

So...what are you trying to say wrt my setup?

[Bicephalous Bob]

and change the win condition so that ministers win when they're half of the population or more (don't count the king).

That doesn't work. The king can't be lynched if the civilians don't control the vote anymore. The civilians would become kingmakers at that point.

[BBmolla]

Stopping claims is stupid as all hell.

[Bicephalous Bob]

and change the win condition so that ministers win when they're half of the population or more (don't count the king).

That doesn't work. The king can't be lynched if the civilians don't control the vote anymore. The civilians would become kingmakers at that point.

this is actually only true in 1v1v1 and partially in 2v2v1

it'd lead to shitty situations no matter what

[Cheery Dog]

•Town wins only if they eliminate the knowledgeable survivor before the last scum member

That ^ Win condition doesn't seem fair to me... especially survior knows every one's alignment. Make the survivor as 3rd party with no knowledge on players alignment. that might balances with this win condition.

You're wanting to do popcorn - a town-sided setup even if the evos are whatever.
More scum is better.

[GreyICE]

and change the win condition so that ministers win when they're half of the population or more (don't count the king).

That doesn't work. The king can't be lynched if the civilians don't control the vote anymore. The civilians would become kingmakers at that point.

The King doesn't want the ministers to be the majority, because then he loses. So the King will cooperate with the civilians to lynch a Minister, because a Minister lynch is the literal only way he can win in 3:3:1. Once it's a 3:2:1 everything becomes shakier (there's also the fact that the Ministers might accidentally cooperate to lynch the king in a 3:3:1 because they have no idea who the king is). Although potentially the king could claim then, which makes the game quite stupid... huh.

I feel like 6:3:1 is probably the correct ratio, but that raises it above a micro, and I really think this is suited for the micro queue.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, king claiming in 3/3/1 is VERY werid. If he claims the minister, then it goes to 3/2/1 and with a claimed king this does gets silly... Uh. King wins if he lynches the minister he doesn't know. Civilians win if they lynch the minister the king does know. If a civilian is lynched we have 2/2/1 which again is dopy - king needs to lynch the minister he doesn't know to win. Well then.

[Bicephalous Bob]

yeah that's why the minister wincon isn't what grey suggested

[Bicephalous Bob]

Constitutional Monarchy

1 King
3 Ministers

7 Civilians

-Nightless, plurality lynches. Ten days for Day 1, five days for the other Days.
-The King knows who the Ministers are.
-Civilians win when the King is dead.
-The Ministers win and leave the game when the Civilians no longer control the vote.
-Before the Ministers have won, the King can win alone by outliving the Ministers. After the Ministers have won, the King can win alone by outliving the Civilians.
-Ministers have daytalk.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay then.

So the king still wants to lynch ministers even if the chance of killing all of them is next-to-impossible so he doesn't have to go 1v4 if they win.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uhhh. Hangon. It's not entirely clear who gets punished more when ministers die/leave.

Basically, isn't optimal strategy for the civilians to just lynch 3 civilians then go into a 4v1 with the king?

Maybe king gets to kill a civilian when a minister is lynched.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I just realized the ministers could just claim. I give up on the concept.

That said, I'd appreciate feedback on this setup:

previous version: 6787

ROAP

4 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons

-Nightkills and vengeful shots are compulsive. Plurality rules are in effect for lynches.
-The number of nightkills the mafia get is the number of kills necessary to get the game to lylo.
-If a VT is lynched on Day 1, a goon has to challenge another player on Night 1. On Day 2, only the challenger and the challenged can be voted.
-3p lylo is vengeful.

[TierShift]

Vengeful lylo is hard as fuck to win for scum

I like it

EV is:
2/3*1/2*2/3=2/9
1/3*2/3=2/9
Makes 4/9 which is 44% EV I think.

Good!

[ika]

if its 3p veng, whats to stop everyone form going "selfvote" and stall?