Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Cheetory6]

UNVOTE:

@mod

I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to go V/LA, I'm neglecting school super hard by focusing too much on mafia right now. I'll try to get a post or two up every day but I can't maintain this level of focus here at the moment.
Please give me questions still and give me shit if I actually go missing for more than two days.

Noted

[NJAC]

Quick thoughts after reaching page 14:

Scummy people: still Grib, and Kaboose is kinda pinging my scumdar. Mainly because I haven't liked the reasons for their votes/scumreads.

Townie people: I'm liking dave, Cheetory, maybe GC, and maybe even swag for town.

Rest are null.

And yes I've not seen yet how the universal townread on Grib developed, so I'm happy with my vote on him.

More tomorrow...

[Malakittens]

I'm sorry. I forgot about this. I'm off three days this week so I'll be caught during those days~

[Lone Ranger]

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent).

[Kaboose]

Hey Lone Ranger, did you give thoughts on Elle reading people town/scum based on when they confirm to the mod?

[Green Crayons]

I look forward to new input on old content from new players.

[Whatisswag]

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent).

I dont see you using logic here for your read so I will assume you use gut. If you use gut, how are you so sure that their alignments would be "apparent"?

[Lone Ranger]

Hey Lone Ranger, did you give thoughts on Elle reading people town/scum based on when they confirm to the mod?

I didn't. And I don't care.

[Lone Ranger]

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent).

I dont see you using logic here for your read so I will assume you use gut. If you use gut, how are you so sure that their alignments would be "apparent"?

Your question doesn't make sense on the surface. I'll take a wild guess at what you are asking: you seem to believe that a) Reads are of two varieties: "Logic" and "gut." b) "Gut" reads are worth less than "logic" reads. c) Alignments can only be apparent based on logic.

I don't agree with any of those premises. Hell, I'm having a hard time even understanding what you are asking without taking wild guesses.

Disregarding the whole logic/gut nonsense, if you want my reasons for reading Malakittens as town, I can do that:

1. She seems engaged with the game in a way that I normally don't see from scum.
2. Her posting feels organic and not artificial and the way she interacted with the game and the reads she developed don't feel strategic or orchestrated.

[Kaboose]

You figured all that out from her in 5 posts?

[Kaboose]

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

It's a townslot!

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

Correct!

Of course, if riddle's slot is replaced, then I will unvote.

do you know how anti-town this is.

First you're pushing a lynch on someone who can not claim because they aren't here when they get to L-1 and you could possibly have a mason. (Not saying this is the case, but could happen). Secondly, there's 6 freaking days on the deadline clock. I haven't caught up and I'd like to hear what replacements have to offer. pushing a lynch when we still need slots replaced is scummy as hell, even though I don't think you're scum. I'd like you to stop so I can first catch up and want to hear others thoughts.

wondeful that's exactly what I wanted to hear when I'm reaching out to you and asking you to work with me.

I'm sorry. I forgot about this. I'm off three days this week so I'll be caught during those days~

These five posts?

[Whatisswag]

If you use gut, how are you so sure to yourself that someone is completely town? gut are often wrong, you know

[Malakittens]

WiS has a great point. I meant to ask earlier and forgot.

[davesaz]

The lull in activity due to needing replacements came at a good time for me, as things got extremely busy at work and home.

[Lone Ranger]

If you use gut, how are you so sure to yourself that someone is completely town? gut are often wrong, you know

I cannot give you straight answers to questions like this because they are loaded. I don't believe you are intentionally making your questions loaded but I think that you are taking what you know of mafia theory and making assumptions as to how others will apply that theory.

First, any kind of reads can be wrong. Gut-based reads are not the only ones that can be wrong so the "gut are often wrong" is meaningless.

Second, I never said "I'm so sure that Malakittens is 'completely' town." You added those bits. I have a townread on Malakittens based on what she posted in the thread so far.

Third, you seem to imply that reads based on gut should be less strong than other reads (I assume you mean "logic" reads as you claim - I don't agree with you that reads can be subdivided into gut and logic reads so it is meaningless anyways but I digress). I see no reason gut-based reads should be less strong so prompting me to answer a question phrased that way isn't reasonable.

All this while, you've ignored the actual reasons I gave for reading Malakittens as town. Do you want to talk about them because that's what I'm interested in.

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

[Green Crayons]

While there's a lot of extraneous bits to this conversation, this is a point that strikes me with any interest:

Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will

also make their alignments apparent

).

Disregarding the whole logic/gut nonsense, if you want my reasons for reading Malakittens as town, I can do that:

1. She seems engaged with the game in a way that I normally don't see from scum.
2. Her posting feels organic and not artificial and the way she interacted with the game and the reads she developed don't feel strategic or orchestrated.

You figured all that out from her in 5 posts?

That's a pretty quick time frame for a strong town read on Mala to develop - her alignment was "apparent" - particularly considering that Ranger had previously read the slot (awesome) as some degree of scum.


Also, this question:

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

Shifts the focus away from Ranger's especially quick solid Mala-town read and onto other players, forcing them to have the burden to disprove that Mala is town. Which is not how reads work.

[Lone Ranger]

I don't give a crap if you think the time frame was quick.

Also, the last bit is manipulative. I explained my read and THEN asked others if they find Mala scummy. Your accusation would have fit better if I had refused to explain the read and demanded that others fulfilled the burden of proof.

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Green Crayons]

No, sorry.

You explained your read (Mala is apparently town for X reasons), then dared swag to say that you are wrong because Mala's posts show that she is scum - as opposed to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that you are wrong because Mala's posts aren't really probative of her alignment.

[Lone Ranger]

It was still manipulative on your part to pretend that I was shifting the burden of proof. I invited him to discuss my reasoning as well. You acted as if I provided no reasoning and demanded that he prove the opposite position. Also, the question I asked him was "

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

" not "why is Mala scum?" It is a difference that I expect you to notice. The latter is a deflection. The former is an investigative question.

In any case, my issue is not with his inability to engage reasoning beyond "how are you so sure Mala is town." My issue is how you chose to interpret our interaction. It feels opportunistic. I think if you were unbiased, you would be seeing through the fallacies of WiS's arguments (which I don't believe are alignment indicative for him) but is alignment indicative for you to pretend like his questioning and loaded assumptions are sound.

[Lone Ranger]

Also, the question I asked him was "Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?" not "why is Mala scum?" It is a difference that I expect you to notice. The latter is a deflection. The former is an investigative question.

To expand, the latter question is loaded. The former question is inquiring whether he disagrees with my read. You are acting as if I asked a loaded question.

[Malakittens]

Okay three days off in a row. Tomorrow illbe caught up here and ready to go!

[Whatisswag]

Hmm both Green and LR are good players, it is kinda hard to read them.

[Green Crayons]

@Ranger:

1. It's not "manipulative" to "pretend" that you were shifting the burden of proof.

You did shift the burden of proof.

You identified the reasoning from the 5 Mala posts that you thought made her apparently town, and then asked swag to show that you were wrong by explaining how those 5 Mala posts made her scum. This was a false dichotomy, because you could be wrong even if the 5 Mala posts didn't make her scum, but simply wasn't probative of her alignment. That's how your Post 739 reads, period.

2. lol @ you trying to conjure up this distinction between "do these posts make Mala scum" and "is Mala scum"?

They are the same question.

Mala had only 5 posts, and therefore the answer to both questions would look to the same 5 posts. This is you muddying the waters with valueless arguments - here, coming up with a distinction without a difference.

[Whatisswag]

Hmm, I saw this thing of arguing around the words some time ago: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6312573

[elleheathen]

I have no freaking clue who I'd want to see hang, at this point.
And I don't think there will be sufficient time before deadline even if we do get all the replacements to give me good feels on it.
Eughh.