↑Kagami wrote:
There are other little things too. I don't believe town greyICE would ever utter "scum caught for the wrong reasons." He's just too smart to believe that.
Ooh, this is juicy.
That's one of my trademark phrases, Kagami. I use that all the time, because one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons". "Why me, fry me" is one of the strictest rules in Mafia, and the best. And anyone who says otherwise is a shitter or scum.
You were Silverwolf? I am starting to LOVE the people showing up to this party with chainsaws.
You're serious? This makes me sad.
Well then, pay attention and you will learn something. I'll start GreyICE's school of how to fucking play mafia, except mine won't be nice and gentle like ABR's.
One of the cardinal rules of mafia is the cardinal rules of any situation where you have a guilty party. Barring utter psychopaths, guilty people know they are "supposed" to get caught. And there's very little way scum can honestly defend themselves from charges of being scum. Of course they were acting scummy, they were scum.When they start grabbing someone else and yelling "well this person was doing it too!" or "you should be going after them if you think that, not me!",
especially when they couple that with "And X wasn't really scummy at all"
then you can very safely hang them.
If you think this is wrong, you haven't been paying attention.
This theory is true.
Contextualize this in response to Sotty's behavior please.
I am fine with voting Sotty but I just want you to put in some good work.
Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
Tokens are bullshit
and
it's not fair I voted her for tokens when I should be voting Hoopla.
This was then compounded by the idea that I was "not the GreyICE she remembered at all" here:
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
The thing is, our only game together (that I had honestly forgotten) was 4 years ago, died on day 2 to the 2 month site crash, and was pretty shit because me and Reckoner spent most of the time bitching at each other because we were both a lot less mature back then (yes, I take a part of the blame, but I claim only a part). So what's this about not being the GreyICE I remember? Especially when we have this:
↑Sotty7 wrote:I don't remember the exact games but I have played with you a long time ago and didn't really enjoy it. Our styles back then clashed way too much so I did my best to avoid you after that for my own sanity. Faraday's Metal gear I think the big one was, you had a blow up with Reck and I was hydring with Zach. The pair of you flooded the thread and I think we got vigg'ed as a result.
Liiiiike, basically? Lets review. I pushed her consistently as well as other people. Her take away was that I would... tunnel one read without pushing anyone else?
I mean in no way does the statement "that's not the GreyICE I remember" make sense. It makes negative sense. I've had plenty of good games, and quite a few bad games, and I honestly don't know what that one was because of Tigers (site crash) but seriously where the hell did that statement come from.
Aaanyway yeah, that's the fucking issues I had and some context. Feel like I've said it all before but w/e
That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
↑EddieFenix wrote:Who's replacing out. Sotty is town and apart of our ideal town block
(MS, Kagami, ZZZX, Zar, and Myself).
This is an attempt to build a "town block" with enough scum to win the game in it. Kagami? Sotty? Eddie? Why is Silverwolf/Kagami suddenly town? No explanation from Eddie. Sotty? No explanation from Eddie.
And if you think he and his team has done anything to try and push either Kagami or Sotty to get these town reads, I invite you to read his ISO.
They are not there.
The questions are not there.
(Because I can talk to my team in PRIVATE and discuss POSTS with them)
The inquisition is not there. He marginalizes ABR as "lone wolf town" when I can quote a dozen examples of ABR trying to build a consensus.
Eddie, I invite you. Do you stand behind your read, Eddie? Do you think that you were correct?
Do you stand behind your read of ABR as lone wolf town, Eddie? Are you willing to say that you are actually reading the game?
Eddie, nothing you are saying is honest. Nothing you are saying is coming from a player who is reading the game. Do you stand behind your statements or disown them, scum.
Yes. What you're saying and trying to base this WHOLE argument over is that because I personally didn't interact with certain players that I want to start a town block with said certain players that you see as scum and to not trust my teams opinion at all, when they have their own eyes in the game and can see this shit as it is unfolding, fucking astounding. There's plenty of time left for explanation on things, people coming in and reading, and THEN once their attention is pulled here fully, THEN you reach out. Plus, if you're going to throw the idea of Silverwolf/Kagami in my face and Sotty, I'm going to throw Empire/Zar in yours. I figure people can ASSUME my team is in my fucking ear, but apparently if you don't come out and say it, WELP! It's all so sudden!!!
I've not exactly had ALL the time in the world to dedicate to POSTING in this game, because trust me I'd love to do that to see you swing. I can assure you I'm reading. Before I could even get a post in the game (post 68 is where I came in), I was told to trust Metal Sonic and ZZZX.
I was informed that you also threw Sotty off their game right from the get go. So, I go back and I iso the BOTH of you to see what's up there (sotty and GI), and if you read it post by post....
Post 107, "Especially Hoopla, as it fits her profile to token scum" YET is voting Sotty. Sotty comes in and tells GreyIce to fucking stick it in his ear about that token bullshit. Then we get THIS!
Why would you say "tokens" is bullshit? They give you an enormous ability to influence your role PM. The idea that we should simply ignore this seems ludicrous.
But even more than that, you've won today's lottery!
↑Sotty7 wrote:Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
So my reason is shitty, but even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?
Congratulations! You win a noose!
Sorry I'm lynching you for the wrong reasons, scumbag.
Claims to have "caught" scum. When... If anything, Hoopla, logically, should have been his first vote, with his token discussion nonsense. "So my reason is shitty, even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?" Um... Iunno?! We've all done some crazy drugs and shit too I guess, cause I'm the magical pixie it seems.
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
You remember me? Interesting. What game was that, to give you such a strong impression?
As for recent play experience, I'll save your team the digging - I've been semi-retired for ages. I think the last game I played with Hoopla was like a year ago. My work schedule, moving, and a whole lot of shit has fucked my ability to commit to mafia.
Firstly, I point out, she's asking, with GreyIce's own logic that he put out himself that Hoopla would be more warranted to token scum, why is it that he's voting her over Hoopla? Pointing out, he's going for the "weaker" of the two options scum potential wise in all that token mess/discussion that he put out that assaulted our brains early on and people were like, just get past this shit dudebrah.
"what game was that, to give you such a strong impression?" Meaning, narrow down, out of all the games that you could potentially list or even remember for that matter, narrow it down to one? Sotty delivers the one game that stands out in their mind in 118... To which we get....
↑GreyICE wrote:Wow, I had forgotten that tiger eaten abortion of a game.
Why do I think you would spend tokens on your scum play? It's literally legendary. Believe it or not, I don't think that the tokens were spent "counterintuitively" very often. You'd hardly be the first returning player to take scum (mith himself did it in the first one).
Why you? I wanted to see how you'd respond. Hoopla just complains that everyone always finds her scummy, she'll pop up with some theory blather in a few days. I was hoping you'd be more interesting. And you were.
But wait, you firstly said Hoopla would spend tokens on scum and now you're saying that Sotty would spend them on scum because their scum game is legendary?! Would we have gotten the same reaction had she NOT mentioned that one specific game, but many others? And in that same post, you don't think tokens were spent "counter intuitively" very often?? Dare I mention that this was for a reaction test as well and that he claims to have caught scum with it?? Ahhh god my brain hurts and it's not over.
But first, need to touch this right quick
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
Last quote, makes mah brain hurt because why is that even a thing if you can barely remember games plural you've played with these people and the one you do remember is a VERY, VERY bad one that they will use against you as seen in 118? Why not take a minute to go back and look thru a few games to be safe if he left THAT big of an impression on you? Unless you CAN'T go back and you have to go off of the top of your memory would be my BEST guess here... UGH. Fuck me.
↑Sotty7 wrote:I think GreyICE is really stretching my scum game and is choosing to ignore my actual preferences to make his vote fit.
I apologize that I caught you for the wrong reasons. It was quite terrible of me. In my defense, you hadn't posted yet. Since you started posting, you've given me so many better reasons for voting you.
You're totally fucking scum. You seriously want me to vote Hoopla rather than you over a reason you think is "bullshit"? You talk about remembering me not "going after the weaker of the two options" and the only game we played together was that hideous abortion where me and Reck ended up yelling at each other for most of day 1 and then the site crashed?
Especially when THIS comes up. Because she said there were games plural (see post 118) that she played with GreyIce and the main one she can remember IS that one, and yet he straw man's the said remembered game and posts it saying as it's the ONLY game they ever played together, when she says games plural and that's the main one that sticks out in her mind as requested to "which game left an impression" by GreyIce. This post... Jesus Christ this post...
↑GreyICE wrote:I thought it was pretty clear. She herself summarized it in a single sentence:
Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
Tokens are bullshit
and
it's not fair I voted her for tokens when I should be voting Hoopla.
This was then compounded by the idea that I was "not the GreyICE she remembered at all" here:
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
The thing is, our only game together (that I had honestly forgotten) was 4 years ago, died on day 2 to the 2 month site crash, and was pretty shit because me and Reckoner spent most of the time bitching at each other because we were both a lot less mature back then (yes, I take a part of the blame, but I claim only a part). So what's this about not being the GreyICE I remember? Especially when we have this:
↑Sotty7 wrote:I don't remember the exact games but I have played with you a long time ago and didn't really enjoy it. Our styles back then clashed way too much so I did my best to avoid you after that for my own sanity. Faraday's Metal gear I think the big one was, you had a blow up with Reck and I was hydring with Zach. The pair of you flooded the thread and I think we got vigg'ed as a result.
Liiiiike, basically? Lets review. I pushed her consistently as well as other people. Her take away was that I would... tunnel one read without pushing anyone else?
I mean in no way does the statement "that's not the GreyICE I remember" make sense. It makes negative sense. I've had plenty of good games, and quite a few bad games, and I honestly don't know what that one was because of Tigers (site crash) but seriously where the hell did that statement come from.
Aaanyway yeah, that's the fucking issues I had and some context. Feel like I've said it all before but w/e
Considering that one can take your early game like....
↑GreyICE wrote:Wow, I had forgotten that tiger eaten abortion of a game.
Why do I think you would spend tokens on your scum play? It's literally legendary. Believe it or not, I don't think that the tokens were spent "counterintuitively" very often. You'd hardly be the first returning player to take scum (mith himself did it in the first one).
Why you? I wanted to see how you'd respond. Hoopla just complains that everyone always finds her scummy, she'll pop up with some theory blather in a few days. I was hoping you'd be more interesting. And you were.
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
You remember me? Interesting. What game was that, to give you such a strong impression?
As for recent play experience, I'll save your team the digging - I've been semi-retired for ages. I think the last game I played with Hoopla was like a year ago. My work schedule, moving, and a whole lot of shit has fucked my ability to commit to mafia.
Okey stop pure token talk. This is a common talking-about-mechanics and ignoring game kind of thing.
Why would you say "tokens" is bullshit? They give you an enormous ability to influence your role PM. The idea that we should simply ignore this seems ludicrous.
But even more than that, you've won today's lottery!
↑Sotty7 wrote:Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
So my reason is shitty, but even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?
Congratulations! You win a noose!
Sorry I'm lynching you for the wrong reasons, scumbag.
To be honest I never got your post. I think my vote is in the right place. you are scum reading him so hard right now because he MIGHT have put tokens as scum? this is not how this works...
↑GreyICE wrote:None. We're actually all flying solo at the moment. Our QT is 3 pages long, and two of them are chatting with Zoraster.
No content yet.
↑GreyICE wrote:Your "townhunting" theory and townblock are so incredibly bad that one cannot believe you came up with them unbiased.
Nightless games inevitably snowball. See Camden, or my setup I designed with Hito. At the moment we have 4 mislynches to town loss, but after a single scum lynch we get a spare mislynch. 5 mislynches is nice. Two scum die, and we get 6. That's really nice. 3, and we get 7 fucking mislynches, and if we manage that we should all quit the site.
So the scum are going to be looking to vote as a block. I smell protectionist scum who wish to work together.
Well you just said my whole theory was baised or something and its bad? I dont actually get it. This is a nightless game. scum needs 5 mislynches in a row to win. if you lynch a scum then u even add one more mislynch. typically if u have a town block of 3 and lynching 1-2 scum (considering ur town block was accurate) you just PoE your way to win). even if you have at least 1 town read that is one less scum target. if someone was clearly town he cant die without scum going there and making thier hands dirty. town blocs basically secures the town player's places where they belong.
↑Empire wrote:I'm annoyed that I only have two townreads so far on page 5 (ZZZX and ABR) and it somehow feels like not much is going down. I wonder if this is the result of rust or the fact that half this thread is two guys or my general antsiness. Or a combination of all three.
(Bigger post coming up next after I finish rereading and thinking.)
We are missing EddieFenix, Hoopla, Sotty7, and Seraphim's post was such a non-entry that it actually might have removed information from the thread. He's my vote for coasting scum by the by.
But two of those were names I twigged as likely to token scum, alongside you and Nacho. Especially Hoopla, as tokening scum in this setup fits her profile.
well i will call this mini info post #1. but infact its all theory talk. also... where is the vote in this one?
Post3: Well technically "just that" included a third of the game. which is a pretty damn high number for that number of posts. noonetheless lets move on.
-only kind of content posts are about tokens this token that.
-0 talk related to what happened in the thread. he just went in to say my spam is crap then never read the thread it seems
-has done a few scumtells.
-overall scummy
Not to mention you avoided even trying to point out ANY flaws in ZZZX's PbPA. Why not slam that as hard as you can?! Especially since it would BENEFIT you to slam that shit?!
GreyICE wrote:
↑Metal Sonic wrote:I was about to slam your point of "fuckwit teammates" so deep into the ground where it would never see light again,
Then I saw that only Bulbazak was the only teammate that was not bad
So actually surprisingly it was remotely true.
Yeah, MS, read this. Where did Eddie interact with Silverwolf/Kagami sllot enough to conclude that the slot
should be part of the townblock?
Can you locate where that brilliant read came from?
It was at THIS post from Kagami, that Bulba informed me to bring her in at some point (note: SOME POINT: I need her here, reading, and interacting before I can get that going). If anything, Bulba's been in my ear as much as I've been in his for our games.
To wrap, to hit any reasons as to why I would take Sotty town is because my team is in my ear for one, especially when my hydra partner is telling me to find a way to wrangle these people in. For two, the back and forth between Sotty and GreyIce leaves a more sour taste in my mouth when you sit down and analyze the whole fucking thing, and it goes in the sour towards Grey Ice. I want people to ISO the two of them together and read. Three ???? Any more questions, do post.
↑EddieFenix wrote: To put in a tl;dr of this, GreyIce and Hoopla were i.ded as scum, given Grey's quite strange interaction involving Hoopla. Of course, we all saw that Grey started out by saying Hoopla would try and dive in for scum. Hoopla decided to drop into the game finally and start posting. We then see a mild suspicion of Hoopla from Grey with this happening and then a COMPLETE 180 in this happens on "information they both knew". To only NOW, pull this shit to where MS, pokes his head out to explain and hammer the last point home... And to top it all off, MS and GI's exchange from 567-570 (especially GI's 568 response to MS's 567), shows more and more that GI's is trying to avoid confrontation.
If there is one thing I can say about GreyICE is that he has not played this game, or any game to avoid confrontation. I could maybe buy a possible Hoopla/GreyICE connection at the very beginning of the game were called out Hoopla but laid his vote on me, but once Hoopla started posting her ideas this fizzed for me. Not only did Hoopla come off as pretty pro town but GreyICE was one of the only people to acknowledge and interact with Hoopla over her points. He seemed to agree with her. Combine this with his actual reasoning for finding Hoopla suspicious (one of the only people to lay this out) I'm starting to feel a little better about him.
↑Albert B. Rampage wrote:Grey Ice makes several good points. I asked about a Sotty scum read and all he managed to wrangle out was a repeat of why he thinks G Ice is scum, which boils down to him not understanding the progression of G Ice's read on Hoopla. It's ridiculous and hypocritical, considering his Sotty read is nonsense he cooked up for no reason. Eddie's back on the chopping block.
Hi I have moved on from GreyICE, you're welcome to join me.
I had a strong town read on Eddie early game but GreyICE's argument is very compelling
How is it compelling?
Why is Hoopla scum? You called Seraphim's case bad and then never expanded.
What's your current read on me?
I feel you're posting a hell of a lot but not actually providing understandable reads out side of wgeurtsScum which no one else is going for right now.
Alright your voting me, but why? To appease ABR? Where you going once I flip town?
ABR keeps repeating that I have produced no content, but I have been here every day posting trying to draw up my reads. Seraphim is still very much my number one shot for scum. I'm starting to wonder a little about Nacho. He is feeling off his game. I was thinking it was because we are team mafia'ing it up but he still hasn't settled down into something that resembles a natural Nacho. GreyICE is a weird one for me. His attacks on me all game have been shitty but when he actually sits back and details things from a whole game preservative I can kinda understand where he is coming from. Metal is all over the place, I feel like he is posting a lot without really saying much. I have a town read on wgeurts, ZZZX and Zar but all of them need to post more (understanding V/LA's) Everyone else is a little bit of a blur because I have been too focused on batting away the attacks on me, but I am hoping to look though over the weekend and sort what is left.
Hello everyone. Today's edition will focus on #601, #602, and #605. I have already addressed most, if not all other previous concerns in my live posting.
↑GreyICE wrote:Wow, I had forgotten that tiger eaten abortion of a game.
Why do I think you would spend tokens on your scum play? It's literally legendary. Believe it or not, I don't think that the tokens were spent "counterintuitively" very often. You'd hardly be the first returning player to take scum (mith himself did it in the first one).
Why you? I wanted to see how you'd respond. Hoopla just complains that everyone always finds her scummy, she'll pop up with some theory blather in a few days. I was hoping you'd be more interesting. And you were.
↑Sotty7 wrote:You claimed to be voting me because I was likely to use tokens to make myself scum. That is untrue, it is pretty well known I favor town if any tokens were to be spent on me it would be in that direction as Nacho hinted at. Not only that but you said that Hoopla was more likely to push a token scum draw than myself yet your vote is on me. Why me over her? You're going after the weaker of the two options you listed for yourself and that's not the GreyICE I remember at all.
You remember me? Interesting. What game was that, to give you such a strong impression?
As for recent play experience, I'll save your team the digging - I've been semi-retired for ages. I think the last game I played with Hoopla was like a year ago. My work schedule, moving, and a whole lot of shit has fucked my ability to commit to mafia.
Okey stop pure token talk. This is a common talking-about-mechanics and ignoring game kind of thing.
Why would you say "tokens" is bullshit? They give you an enormous ability to influence your role PM. The idea that we should simply ignore this seems ludicrous.
But even more than that, you've won today's lottery!
↑Sotty7 wrote:Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
So my reason is shitty, but even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?
Congratulations! You win a noose!
Sorry I'm lynching you for the wrong reasons, scumbag.
To be honest I never got your post. I think my vote is in the right place. you are scum reading him so hard right now because he MIGHT have put tokens as scum? this is not how this works...
↑GreyICE wrote:None. We're actually all flying solo at the moment. Our QT is 3 pages long, and two of them are chatting with Zoraster.
No content yet.
↑GreyICE wrote:Your "townhunting" theory and townblock are so incredibly bad that one cannot believe you came up with them unbiased.
Nightless games inevitably snowball. See Camden, or my setup I designed with Hito. At the moment we have 4 mislynches to town loss, but after a single scum lynch we get a spare mislynch. 5 mislynches is nice. Two scum die, and we get 6. That's really nice. 3, and we get 7 fucking mislynches, and if we manage that we should all quit the site.
So the scum are going to be looking to vote as a block. I smell protectionist scum who wish to work together.
Well you just said my whole theory was baised or something and its bad? I dont actually get it. This is a nightless game. scum needs 5 mislynches in a row to win. if you lynch a scum then u even add one more mislynch. typically if u have a town block of 3 and lynching 1-2 scum (considering ur town block was accurate) you just PoE your way to win). even if you have at least 1 town read that is one less scum target. if someone was clearly town he cant die without scum going there and making thier hands dirty. town blocs basically secures the town player's places where they belong.
↑Empire wrote:I'm annoyed that I only have two townreads so far on page 5 (ZZZX and ABR) and it somehow feels like not much is going down. I wonder if this is the result of rust or the fact that half this thread is two guys or my general antsiness. Or a combination of all three.
(Bigger post coming up next after I finish rereading and thinking.)
We are missing EddieFenix, Hoopla, Sotty7, and Seraphim's post was such a non-entry that it actually might have removed information from the thread. He's my vote for coasting scum by the by.
But two of those were names I twigged as likely to token scum, alongside you and Nacho. Especially Hoopla, as tokening scum in this setup fits her profile.
well i will call this mini info post #1. but infact its all theory talk. also... where is the vote in this one?
Post3: Well technically "just that" included a third of the game. which is a pretty damn high number for that number of posts. noonetheless lets move on.
-only kind of content posts are about tokens this token that.
-0 talk related to what happened in the thread. he just went in to say my spam is crap then never read the thread it seems
-has done a few scumtells.
-overall scummy
Not to mention you avoided even trying to point out ANY flaws in ZZZX's PbPA. Why not slam that as hard as you can?! Especially since it would BENEFIT you to slam that shit?!
This is one of the most insightful points I have seen in the game. Oh my. 10/10 agree.
It's an extremely excellent catch. Highly compelling point. Wow.
I overlooked this previously, and I suppose so did many people, but
everyone should read what's in this quote.
And since ZZZX can be considered to be one of the towniest members in the game, this gives credibility.
So, what's on the cover of today's weekend edition?
Highlight number 1: GreyICE may not be as town as we thought!
Highlight number 2: EddieFenix is town -- the Whys and the Hows?
Highlight number 3: Sotty and GreyICE, partners in crime?
So GreyICE's latest game-relevant posts have begun to tick more and more, and new discoveries by EddieFenix have convinced me that GreyICE is not eligible for a place in the town block.
Firstly, I think that EddieFenix already explained this point but let me restate this again.
↑GreyICE wrote:I thought it was pretty clear. She herself summarized it in a single sentence:
Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
Tokens are bullshit
and
it's not fair I voted her for tokens when I should be voting Hoopla.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
Remember the initial theorem:
When they start grabbing someone else and yelling "well this person was doing it too!" or "you should be going after them if you think that, not me!", especially when they couple that with "And X wasn't really scummy at all" then you can very safely hang them.
The theorem means that a scum would likely
call out another player with the same behavior that they were accused of.
Let us take a closer look at the context:
↑GreyICE wrote:Especially Hoopla, as tokening scum in this setup fits her profile.
Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.
So it appears that GreyICE's reasoning for his initial vote on Sotty was because "she was likely to token scum". However, by his own admission Hoopla was the most likely to token scum in this game. By this logic, GreyICE should have voted Hoopla over Sotty for the same reason. In essence, GreyICE was correct when he said this:
↑GreyICE wrote:So my reason is shitty, but even if it wasn't, I should have voted Hoopla rather than you based on it?
Sotty didn't pull out Hoopla's name out of thin air. GreyICE literally mentioned in a previous post that Hoopla was the most likely to token scum.
Sotty was voting GreyICE because of a self contradiction, not as a scum reaction.
See the thing here, Sotty didn't deflect. Sotty didn't "[grab] someone else" when she was accused. Sotty was pointing out your
logic gap
in your reasoning behind a vote on her. Whether the tokens argument is "bullshit" or not is irrelevant;
your
argument was the one that was "bullshit".
↑GreyICE wrote:I mean in no way does the statement "that's not the GreyICE I remember" make sense. It makes negative sense. I've had plenty of good games, and quite a few bad games, and I honestly don't know what that one was because of Tigers (site crash) but seriously where the hell did that statement come from.
Yeah, okay, thanks for the history.
Whether her statements make sense or not is irrelevant; what is the scum motivation? How does this relate to the golden rule of scumhunting that you have spelled out so finely earlier?
Well, so I was hoping for some good work, but I have been sorely disappointed.
___
In contrast, EddieFenix has posted the "right" answer in response to GreyICE's strike in #586. I would have expected EddieFenix to answer something along the lines of 'discussion with his team', because of contextual clues and evidence of this can be found in his ISO.
↑Metal Sonic wrote:I had a strong town read on Eddie early game but GreyICE's argument is very compelling
I stand by my words here, if Eddie had replied "Whoops! I back down", or "GreyICE, you're right" or equivalent, I'd be glad to send him to the noose immediately. I chose to wait, because Eddie's response would be alignment-indicative. And his response was the town one.
↑EddieFenix wrote:(Because I can talk to my team in PRIVATE and discuss POSTS with them)
Is the "right" answer. Anything else would have been wrong and meant a swift death.
____
So I do not rule out the possibility of GreyICE and Sotty both being scum, with GreyICE bussing Sotty. Incidentally, Sotty's #605 just comes right in and drives the point home. Let's take a look at this
↑Sotty7 wrote:I'm starting to feel a little better about [GreyICE].
↑Sotty7 wrote:Hi I have moved on from GreyICE, you're welcome to join me.
↑Sotty7 wrote:GreyICE is a weird one for me. His attacks on me all game have been shitty but when he actually sits back and details things from a whole game preservative I can kinda understand where he is coming from.
What.
The.
Shit.
Here's how this is going down. First I'll dissect Sotty's post as per normal, then I'll write an argument for why Sotty-GreyICE interactions are dodgy as all hell and there is reason to believe a Sotty-GreyICE-Hoopla triangle scum siege.
↑Sotty7 wrote:Not only did Hoopla come off as pretty pro town
How are they pro town? Can you give examples?
↑Sotty7 wrote:once Hoopla started posting her ideas this fizzed for me.
How did it "fizz" for you? Can you describe your thought process?
↑Sotty7 wrote:Combine this with his actual reasoning for finding Hoopla suspicious (one of the only people to lay this out) I'm starting to feel a little better about him.
What 'actual reasoning' do you refer to? Did you mean the reason that "Hoopla" is more likely to token scum? In no manner did GreyICE ever suspect Hoopla save for #539 that only comes close if we stretch it. Did you see something that we all overlooked?
↑Sotty7 wrote:How is it compelling?
Why is Hoopla scum? You called Seraphim's case bad and then never expanded.
What's your current read on me?
To see your reaction. To generate extra pressure on you. To remind you that you are always in danger of a lynch, even if there were no votes on you in the past vote count.
This question is only three words long, but it can be considered the most significant. Firstly, let's establish that I have a higher arbitrary "town level" than ABR. My name has already been nominated for townblocks by multiple distinct players, while I have to actually kindly request for ABR to be included in the townblocks themselves. It is unnecessary for me "to appease ABR".
Secondly, I like how Sotty ignores GreyICE's very obvious "appeasement" behavior. Did you actually think that I would miss that? Let us see examples:
Spoiler: A
↑GreyICE wrote:ABR, the activity around this wagon is getting serious red flag territory. I don't like it. LLD thinks it's shit. Nacho's vote was fine for him to ride out the day or pull to explain it's "pressure". People are setting up day 1, not day 2.
Gimme something new. Literally pick a vote, I will sheep. Something is wrong here. I'm not saying lets not revisit it on a later day, but day 1 this is seriously off. Just please lets not do wgeurts, my team thinks he looks like he's legit trying to figure out the game, and I agree.
Spoiler: B
↑Albert B. Rampage wrote:You unvoted Sotty so she could post more, even though you have a scum read on her, and decide to vote for Hoopla who posted even less content than Sotty.
↑Albert B. Rampage wrote:Time's up, guys. I stepped back to let the game breathe without me and nothing happened. Hoopla never posted, Sotty didn't contribute, wgeurts and ZZZX V/LA, Zar not caught up. Absolutely nothing.
Literally none of the resistance to this wagon comes from town reads.
Although Seraphim was still a good vote.
Did you get sloppier as your situation became more dire? What then, do you think of GreyICE's attempts to "appease ABR"? Why didn't you ask GreyICE why he is voting you, then?
I believe the interactions are clear and no further needs to be said on this matter.
↑Sotty7 wrote:I'm starting to wonder a little about Nacho. He is feeling off his game.
So I've given you guys a sneak peek of my areas of concern with regard to GreyICE earlier today.
Spoiler: #556
↑Metal Sonic wrote:There are a couple of other inconsistencies in the game that will cause you distress when I point them out.
1. GreyICE was hard championing the Sotty wagon earlier today. Now, he has taken a back seat, and you have taken lead on this front, effectively pushing it for him.
2.
↑quadz08 wrote:Seraphim (4) - Metal Sonic, Sotty7, Albert B. Rampage, GreyICE
Not only is the Sotty wagon gone, GreyICE was swift to sheep you (and me) on the Seraphim wagon, abandoning his bloodlust for Sotty. With this naked vote:
↑Albert B. Rampage wrote:G Ice, actually, I'd like you to tell me why Hoopla isn't a great lynch right now. It seems to me that she is.
He never actually responded to this. However, many of his posts prior to your call-out on #336 were lauds and praises for Hoopla's "town" analysis.
Firstly, let me explain my Sotty scumread. For me, it is based on poor reactions to jabs that I have observed in response to various players, including GreyICE.
Spoiler: Something old
↑Metal Sonic wrote:I've been checking the thread all day but wasn't posting because I should do a long one at the com.
Just came in to report that the above post was extremely scummy for the above reasons:
1. Not denying that GreyICE's claim is absurd and/or not denying that her own slot is scum.
A town response would be either to dismiss GreYICE or because of the moral right that one has received a town PM, thus does not see the need to answer slanderous accusations. Sotty7 is going in-between, by discrediting GreyICE, while doing so in an indirect manner to suggest imposition and avoid conflict.
2. Accusatory instead of content
"I think that GreyICE"... In response to a push. Instead of providing content on other players or making a stand, Sotty's response was to attack GreyICE ad-hominem rather than something built in logic and/or ignoring the libelous arguments against herself. In no manner is any indication made of GreyICE's conclusion being called out right or wrong -- avoiding the topic of alignment altogether.
I wish I could post more but it's tough on a phone. Made this coherent and concise as possible.
Spoiler: Post of the day 3
↑Metal Sonic wrote:So, a thousand or so words in and I haven't actually seen decent analysis or scumhunting from your slot. Okay, I have no idea how Sotty plays. I have never played with her before, no meta, and I have never heard of this player until I have joined this game.
But. A lack of scumhunting. Not trying to find out players' alignments. That's something to look out for, eh?
Okay, so anyway GreyICE was against Sotty because of the escapade with the "tokens" argument, which after my push for him to articulate his argument clearly in prose, was fundamentally wrong. Insofar I have agreed with his mafia theory, but that theory he did not apply specifically to the game in a logical manner. Therefore, GreyICE's initial reasons for scumreading Sotty were convoluted.
Spoiler: Not convincing enough?
Let's take another look for when GreyICE self-contradicts with regard to his read on Sotty.
↑Kagami wrote:sotty is apparently pathetic and the worst liar ever. And is a legendary scum player in the next post.
And another one:
↑Metal Sonic wrote:This, dear class, is a textbook example of a self-contradiction. Distressingly, there are possible scum motivations for such a contradiction, which is regretful to hear from GreyICE.
(Okay, not in regard to Sotty, but Hoopla interactions are relevant too...)
Then later, I observed that GreyICE was no longer hard pushing Sotty; ABR took over the lead instead. Assume GreyICE scum. ABR would do the tough work of getting Sotty lynched, but GreyICE gets the easy part and a part of the town cred, potentially enabling him to survive for days. Not only that, in the future ABR will be pressured (Burden of Proficiency) to be hunting scum -- GreyICE will just sheep "whoever ABR votes". With a mislynch, ABR will be responsible, but with a successful scum lynch, GreyICE will be rewarded based on Vote Count Analysis (VCA). Tsk, GreyICE isn't ABR's lackey, it's the other way around!
Another perspective this can take is that GreyICE-scum's 'false push' had gone too fast. He was only intending to put pressure on Sotty early game to distance, or perhaps get some towncred if she flipped later in the game. To his horror, the bloodlust for Sotty was much larger than he had expected, therefore attempts were made to slow down the wagon -- we all have been briefed about how every scum lynch gives us another mislynch.
Then, we have this:
↑Sotty7 wrote:GreyICE is a weird one for me. His attacks on me all game have been shitty but when he actually sits back and details things from a whole game preservative I can kinda understand where he is coming from.
Sotty's becomes more lax on GreyICE. No longer going heads-to-heads. Of course, given my theory that they are both scum, some things can be left unsaid in their public conversations in the thread. I have highlighted earlier her preference to call me out on my Sotty vote, yet conveniently overlooked GreyICE's obvious "appeasement of ABR"; simply omitting his scummy actions and hoping nobody sees them. HELLO, I SEE THEM.
There's also this very peculiar post that can be left to your own interpretation:
↑GreyICE wrote:Wait, why are we on a wagon with Sotty
Why is Sotty even on this wagon? The reasoning isn't even paper thin, unless you're buying tissue paper.
I have the sort of lack of understanding of this game that is preferably solved by corpses. A pile of very specific corpses.
Let's come to the point of their mutual townreads on Hoopla. GreyICE's townread of Hoopla has already been pointed out by many to be, what I'd call "not legit". Incidentally, so has Sotty's townread on Hoopla. And it's not like the entire game is scumreading Hoopla because of these two players townreading Hoopla -- we genuinely see Hoopla as scum independently of their reads. So, how do these mysterious Hoopla townreads come about? Why are Sotty and GreyICE defending the same player with dubious methodologies? Aren't they supposedly at loggerheads with each other? Apparently not, as #605 shows...
↑GreyICE wrote:Sorry I'm lynching you for the wrong reasons, scumbag.
↑GreyICE wrote:I apologize that I caught you for the wrong reasons
↑GreyICE wrote:one of the best scum tells in the whole wide world is when someone starts bitching that you're wagoning them for the "wrong reasons".
Of course you caught her for the wrong reasons! It's a screwed up, convoluted, calculated bus, and if GreyICE thinks that Sotty's lynch is going to win him a spot at Town Block 2015, I, as administrator, strip him of this privilege.
[area=Conclusion
GreyICE's reasoning for his initial Sotty push was indeed for the 'wrong' reasons, and these only became apparent when I obliged him to write a longer paragraph detailing his thought processes. His actions after the wagon has started indicate a laid-back approach, as if he was expecting a large reward (town-cred) in return for his Sotty "push" -- the lack of true conviction in wanting a real scum lynched as compared to attempts receive the towncred is shown. Finally, both Sotty's and GreyICE's interactions and trajectories with regard to Hoopla are twisted, baffling, and bewildering, suggesting that they are scum together while performing an intricate strategy.[/area]
And yeah, I know I just said Seraphim looked town, but I'm reviewing that town read as we speak: his passion posting was good, but I don't think it's enough to make him town town
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
Grey has fallen on the right side of the tracks enough times where it makes him very strongly town if my current view of the game is even sort of correct. His posting so far has been very solid overall: there are certain pushes of his that I don't get that excited about but his heart is in the right place.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
Eddie's tone is absolutely fantastic, in love with it. Consistent passion is great, can't really see him not being scum in most worlds and would probably put him in the town block if there was just a *tiny* bit more from him.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
Seraphim/Zar is where the most doubt lies, by far. Empire wasn't that town when he posted and now he's gone forever, Seraphim has made a bunch of good votes early game and has :goodposted: in several places.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
So, now that I've found a measure of confidence, I'm probably going to push strong for a lynch in {Kagami, Hoopla} but would be open to Sotty lynch as of this moment. I'm also sorry for all the spam, I have absolutely no idea how long I will be able to post and am also posting on mobile, so just posting complete thoughts as I'm forming them.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
Did actually think Silverwolf sucked, Kagami came in and played the whole "oh I'm ok with lynching Sotty if we do the vengeful plan even though I doubt anyone will follow it" angle, and also has been parking vote on GreyICE for reasons that didn't have the same passion your vote did.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
And reasons that are also just garbage: "scum caught for the wrong reasons" and "why me = fry me" are GI staples, so criticizing him for them while pretending to have familiarity with him as a player is bleh.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
I haven't played my normal game because of the nature of the game/playerlist, not for any shitty "Team Mafia" reasons. In this type of game, it's important to either A) form a strong town block of people and push the rest of the game out, or B) find two or three scum early game, run them into the ground, then let paranoia run a bit more rampant once you've built a comfortable lead. I'm hoping to do a combination of both approaches, but needed time to form more solid reads and see where the lines in the sand started forming before I got involved myself.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
