Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Cheetory6]

So you think scum never sidelines? :/

[Titus]

In a lethargic town, who honestlythinks that scum wasn't setting up competition between two town lynches.

I wouldn't call this town letharigic, but very divided. We have active scum pushing an agenda somewhere. Yesterday, that agenda appeared to be "Save Aronis" from my persepective. I may have to do a VCA to look at this despite it being of lower value, and my earlier team mafia one being off. These wagons do have a story to tell.

@Singer, Who do you think was scum on the Bulba wagon? Or are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Bulba was town?

1. Zar and I had a bit of a laugh about your nightless VCA, but everyone makes mistakes. You seem to be pretty confident about your history of it, so I'm interested in seeing your VCA firsthand.

2. I'm not sure why you're asking me to speculate on a wagon I did in fact say I was townreading everyone on, but gun-to-my-head...hnng...ok, I can't do it. I won't vote for anyone on Bulb's wagon today. Are you suggesting that it's not possible that everyone on Bulba was town? Humor me and pretend you were on it instead of me. Is Aronis the only scum on the wagon?

1. My VCA failed due to three scum being wagoned against each other, which was a possibility I thought was remote as fuck having 3 scum wagons all counter each other on day 1 with the same amount of votes. Given the gamestate, my VCA may need to come earlier than I like. I need a scumflip to feel very confident in the VCA at all. I just think it's time I step up to the plate and be more dominant because being less dominant is not helpful as we're still mislynching.

2. I highly doubt Aronis and you are the only scums on the wagon. Is it possible, sure, but likely no.

[Titus]

So you think scum never sidelines? :/

Through bad wagons, I don't think scum would do that. I think we're looking at an agency capture situation.

Agency Capture is where all the scums appear to be townie.

[Titus]

**Through about 4 bad wagons. On any given one, sure. This many, I find it unlikely.

[Cheetory6]

Like, are you seriously implying that you think DVslot is town simply because it's been sitting off doing nothing all of this time?
How is that not at the very least super null?
Like, explain that shit in more detail because I keep feeling like you're bringing up the biggest bullshit reasons for defending this slot.

[Titus]

You can still, do nothing, and hop on a wagon. For instance, Aronis's behavior. He hasn't explained any of his reads at all for days. Yet, he votes on wagons. That's the behavior I'd expect from scum. Silently assisting town implosions.

I have grave difficulties believing we can't find the scum without at least 2 scum heavily pushing the town mislynches/misbanes. So I want to focus there.

Is it possible it's one big coincidence? Sure. The nightless game taught me any coincidence is possible, but I don't want to chase the remote when common sense says to me that there's scum on Bulba's wagon that's more persuasive than I am.

[Cheetory6]

Do you think there's four scum on Bulba's wagon?

[Titus]

All four scum would be unlikely, but we need a dramatic changeup to the status quo.

We've kept listening to the same people over and over again. And somehow, we keep wagoning people with PR claims. It's suspicious.

[singersigner]

DV was lurking a lot the last couple of weeks and wasn't voting at all (which is weird that you overlooked?), and 4xi3ty replaced in after UT's claim, so...no reason to bring attention there. If you couldn't catch up and be held accountable for your vote, why bring attention to yourself when you can't handle it? It makes perfect sense for scum DV to try to just lurk his way through it, and then replace out when he couldn't handle it for whatever reason.

Also, are we to take this as you town reading all of those wagons you mentioned?

[Shadoweh]

2. I'm not sure why you're asking me to speculate on a wagon I did in fact say I was townreading everyone on, but gun-to-my-head...hnng...ok, I can't do it. I won't vote for anyone on Bulb's wagon today. Are you suggesting that it's not possible that everyone on Bulba was town?

Singer, does your team agree with this theory? Two flashwagons on town 66% composed of the same people are not going to be composed all of town.

Do you think there's four scum on Bulba's wagon?

This is disengenuous. Suggesting there's scum on the wagon is not the same thing as suggesting the entire scum team derp-leaped on him.

[Cheetory6]

Titus is trying to tell me that I shouldn't be looking at 4nx because he wasn't voting for Bulba.
If all of the scum aren't on the Bulba wagon then this is a shit reason for me to not be looking at 4nx.
Feel free to ask me what I mean before shitslinging at me though.

[Titus]

Yes. I'm townreading Mastina (have been since the start), CDB I've warmed up to, TTH is prob town due to claim, Bulba is conftown. UT's play today is pretty protown (ambivalent on the Shadoweh read but I like his reactions after the first lynch). So yeah.

Either I'm wrong on one of those reads, or there's scum in the popular crowd. I don't see anyway around that conclusion.

DV could have easily said, "Just saw the vote count, don't have time to catch up, but I see this stuff about REALLY needing a lynch. Vote Bulba." Or just naked vote him like Aronis did. Considering we're letting Aronis slide without explanation, who said DV would have to explain HIS vote?

[Cheetory6]

Yeah, he could have done that.
He also could have just sat back and watched the fireworks.
I do that shit all the time as scum. Not all scum is hyper-proactive and trying to assert their influence. Sometimes it's arguably more effective to sit back and let people make their own fuck-ups.

[Titus]

Titus is trying to tell me that I shouldn't be looking at 4nx because he wasn't voting for Bulba.
If all of the scum aren't on the Bulba wagon then this is a shit reason for me to not be looking at 4nx.
Feel free to ask me what I mean before shitslinging at me though.

I'm saying he wasn't voting for Bulba, OR ANY OTHER WAGON TO CLAIM. As scum, he would have hopped on one at some point, unless his team was just that adept at pushing mislynches.

Either way, while you could be right, I'm not wanting to lynch there today. I want to shake things up.

[Titus]

Yeah, he could have done that.
He also could have just sat back and watched the fireworks.
I do that shit all the time as scum. Not all scum is hyper-proactive and trying to assert their influence. Sometimes it's arguably more effective to sit back and let people make their own fuck-ups.

Yes. I agree, but you can influence a wagon by voting it without being proactive.

[Titus]

2. I'm not sure why you're asking me to speculate on a wagon I did in fact say I was townreading everyone on, but gun-to-my-head...hnng...ok, I can't do it. I won't vote for anyone on Bulb's wagon today. Are you suggesting that it's not possible that everyone on Bulba was town?

Singer, does your team agree with this theory? Two flashwagons on town 66% composed of the same people are not going to be composed all of town.

Do you think there's four scum on Bulba's wagon?

This is disengenuous. Suggesting there's scum on the wagon is not the same thing as suggesting the entire scum team derp-leaped on him.

Two flashwagons on town 66% composed of the same people are not going to be composed all of town.[/]b

^^^ This is the credited response.

I don't like seeing the same names pop up. Either someone's good at being a little birdy popping suggestions in people's ears while avoiding wagons, or there's scum on those wagons.

Occam's Razor says that scum aren't getting town to lynch themselves solely by sitting on the sidelines.

[Cheetory6]

And if Aronis is town then 4nx can wave his hands around saying "wow look at all of these townwagons that I haven't voted for ever I'm so town wow".
I mean for fuck's sake 3-4 players in this game are entirely basing how they're analyzing this game on VCA.
If I were scum, one of the main things I would be playing around in a game with VCAcentric players would be VCA. Sitting off wagons or stacking wagons would be the first thing I would be aiming to do to fuck with town's ability to read me.
Like, whatever, don't believe me, I'm not trying to prove I'm town right now.
I'm just saying that VCA only works so long as people aren't trying to play around it and if either you or mastin is town then there's no reason for scum in a tryhard scenario like team mafia not to try and fuck with that kind of stuff.

[Cheetory6]

I'm not trying to argue that there isn't 1-2 active scum influencing the gamestate, but you can be sure that between FF and 4nx or someone else nondescript like Shadow there's a decent chance of at least one scum trying to fly completely under the radar by not being on anything.

[Formerfish]

Jesus, what the fuck happened? I'll be catching up and keeping current.

pedit- I resent that I am still being seen as flying under the radar.

[singersigner]

Regfan thinks one of the more universally townread players that people are blanket townreading from the beginning of the game is wrong. His theory is DV so we can get behind an 4xi3ty lynch.

My team has townreads on everyone on Bulb's wagon, yes. That was part of the reason why they were so ok with a Bulb lynch. That and his VCA, but I digress.

And I'm sorry, Titus, excusing someone for not MIA-voting is literally the dumbest thing...
And what do you mean by "shake things up"? Where are you voting to do that?
Occam's razor says you're that little birdy popping suggestions in people's ears on your pedastool, telling people they're wrong or ignorant, making it seem like it's impossible to have an all-town wagon on town, or that it's impossible to play scum in such a lucky-out-of-the-shadows kind of way, or that it's impossible for three other scum to push a mislynch successfully.

[Cheetory6]

(2) Not Voting: 4nxi3ty,

Formerfish

(Oversoul)

With votes like this I can't imagine why.

[Espeonage]

I'm not trying to argue that there isn't 1-2 active scum influencing the gamestate, but you can be sure that between FF and 4nx or someone else nondescript like Shadow there's a decent chance of at least one scum trying to fly completely under the radar by not being on anything.

I would rather catch scum that is vocal overscum that isn't when the pools of players are pretty equal.

[singersigner]

Sooooo then...Titus??

[Espeonage]

Yeah

[Titus]

I'm not trying to argue that there isn't 1-2 active scum influencing the gamestate, but you can be sure that between FF and 4nx or someone else nondescript like Shadow there's a decent chance of at least one scum trying to fly completely under the radar by not being on anything.

Let's suppose we're both right. 2 v 2 even split.

What do you think is going to happen when we apply pressure to lurkers? Nothing. The same influential people will be pushing the same shit wagons and get hopped on. If we force people to be accountable for the votes they cast, lurker scum will have to come out of hiding and play to protect their buddies.

What you're pushing for, voting a lurker without being a counterwagon to the ones being pushed by the same people, is NOT likely to do anything to alter the gamestate. Doing the same damn thing over and over again is NOT likely to result in a different result.

Spoiler: Wagons to claim

We had a wagon on Mastina, who is probably the doctor. (8) mastin2: vezokpiraka, TellTaleHeart (Likely town), singersigner, Untrod Tripod, Aronis, Oversoul, Cheetory (got off right as Mastina claimed, still included for reference), Gammagooey
Wagon on CDB. Titus, Formerfish, Bulbazak, TellTaleHeart, Untrod Tripod, vezokpiraka, ActionDan, Espeonage [L-2]
Wagon on Bulba. (9) Bulbazak: TellTaleHeart, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6, Gammagooey, Aronis, Untrod Tripod, ChannelDelibird, Oversoul, singersigner (Oversoul) [Lynch!]
Wagon on UT. (9) Untrod Tripod: Formerfish, Titus, Shadoweh, ActionDan, TellTaleHeart, Untrod Tripod, Gammagooey, Oversoul, Cheetory6 (Cheetory6) [Decided!]
Wagon on TTH. 7) TellTaleHeart: Titus, Empire, Tammy, Aronis, Marquis, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6 (ChannelDelibrd) [L-3]
Wagon on TSO. (10) T S O: Titus, Untrod Tripod, Gammagooey, singersigner, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Cheetory6, ActionDan, GuyInFreezer, ChannelDelibird [Lynch!]

@FF, Then fucking do something.