Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[ika]

@ika:
1)who are your strongest reads?
2) Who are you having trouble sorting?
3)What am I missing about the set-up/is set-up spec really unhelpful?
4)Why were you asking about fruit?
5)What's your read on me?
6)Any questions for me?
7)I kinda have a terrible scum-read on you: why am I wrong?

1) grib/tere are my tops, boo is potential but its ~reason~
2) boo, plume cus of tere, everyone else that i porb havent mentioned nor cared for
3) depends on setup itself. the answer for this i more theory talk. I can elaborate on it but i can also just OGC you about those things later cus it is more theory.
4) setup spec
5) honestly i could rationalize both scum and town. gun to head i would say town but i need more out of you
6) yes, whats your town/scum reads? do you think there is a rb? what you think of cho being vig and fialing on frogger?
7) cus your a woman and ~stuff~ and im a man and ~stuff~ (yes even in game i will make that horribale refrence)

[Plum]

Plum do you think you could have a lot at Singer before she replaced out please? I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

Sure thing. I did reskim her stuff when I was going over dragon's slot yesterday, but I came away with what I basically had before: 'meh, I have mild good feelings that might just be playstyle/personality related' - so it didn't end up being a big factor there. In fact I think her Mafia playstyle/personality is a little like mine as a baseline (?) which is making it kinda harder to read just from that, and she didn't do anything super bold or that lead to anything super bold on the wagons side of things. Anyway, interesting that she noted MS/WNI relationship very early on (though as you would expect, not reading the *right* relationship given hidden information). It might not mean anything, but I kind of think it suggests mildly good things about an actual scumhunting process going on there. I still think her Grib vote early on makes sense, buuuut I don't think that fact indicates much about alignment. Meh. It's like there's next to nothing there that's really deeply alignment indicative to my reading. Her earlyish MS vote (before replace out stuff) looks slightly Town. That's about it.

In all seriousness, how confident are you that the timing of Bookitty's neat and colorful readslist was a Total Coincidence™?

[Bookitty]

I have no idea what you're on about with this snipy "unprompted readslist" thing. I thought you would explain, but apparently not. Anyway, check THIS out. It will blow your mind.

Boo and dragon aren't really making me town-read them, there doesn't seem to be a huge connection to the game. Boo's been pretty flexible with her thoughts, which is a plus, but I'd also like something concrete from them.

@boo, readslist?

[Plum]

Fair enough. I didn't process that and I'm sorry.

[Ankamius]

Vote Count 2.12

ZZZX (2)

- Hydrangea, Grib

Bookitty (2)

- Cho, Plum

Cho (2)

- dragonspawn, ika

Plum (2)

- Tere, ZZZX
dragonspawn -
Bellaphant -
Frogging Mollie -
Grib -
Hydrangea -
ika -
Tere -


Not Voting (3): Bellaphant, Bookitty, Fro99er

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-06-13 19:30:19), or June 13th, 6:30PM CST (GMT-6).

Prodding: N/A
Replacing: N/A

[Fro99er]

I agree with Grib's line of thinking that either ZZZX or Plum have a good likelihood of being scum as one of the one's off the MS wagon D1, but I think Grib is on the wrong one. Evidenced D2 by Plum's opportunistic vote on ZZZX as sheeping Grib's line of thinking to "agree" with this while "of course it cant be me". Now Plum is opportunistically on a Bookitty wagon that Cho started.

I still cannot understand Plum's motivation for not wanting to sort myself/Cho. Wouldn't you want to sort that? You're clearly conflicted by us (also, I love the ZZZX reasoning now that your sheeping on ZZZX didn't work).

{Cho, Frogmollie, ZZZX}
This is the part where I feel bad and I say straight out that it'll be so hard to ever convince me to go after Cho because of Yukari's attempted trust tell. I feel awful because it's borderline cheating but I'm not sure if the site rules extend as far as this particular case? Like by the end of Day 1 I was like, maybe Yukari's a Vig, or maybe they're a, you know, real investigative powerrole, or maybe they're none of the freaking above. They are playing everything like a crazy person, and most of it in the way where crazy means not much makes traditional sense. Besides that bloody trust tell. I trust it, amid the swirling sandstorm of Yukari's play, this is something I have little doubt about working with. Also seriously someone should look into Yukari's use of it post game or something. Cho's actually been fine, too, so nothing there has made me doubt that.

I wouldn't expect Frogmollie to lay themselves on the line by pushing a Frogmollie/Yukari 1v1 today if she were scum, given that many people seem okay on the Cho/Yukari slot and not that many people want to drive it as a true 1v1. I might not expect Frogmollie to pursue MS the way they did Day 1 as scum, but somewhat less conviction on this part of it; extreme vocal pushes by scum on Town Day 1 are not unheard of, after all, but still. This is supplemented by reads e.g. Grib and Tere are holding, which I trust and inform this to some extent. At one point today I was willing to seriously consider lynching them, but that was based on trusting Grib's reading of the Yukari/Frogmollie situation. And I think I'd lynch them over Cho if it were a 1v1 choice.

I mean, I want to sort Bookitty and Plum, and I can't figure out which line of thinking is right, but I trust Tere more than Cho right now (no offesne Cho), and I've sorted ZZZX as town.

Finally, I think this is a scumslip:

Spoiler: scumslip?

hey plum

why do you find it so angst that I did not answer a tiny question that you hid at the back of a paragraph that was part of a huge wallpost? which was to explain my scumread on you

yet when mollie ignored grib's extremely large red bold text font question. to explain a scumread on me. you don't call her out?


even if you think that they are town, thats far beyond extreme hypocrisy.

WNI and Frogmollie have been talking past each other for pages and pages. At best, each is entrenched in their view of the situation. They both feel the other hasn't given them a fair shake or hasn't

really

answered their questions, and have often replied to 'why haven't you answered my question' with 'I already have, why haven't you answered mine?' and that sort of thing. One of the questions being large and in red text doesn't change the whole situation. It's just more rhetoric, and I've seen more than enough of it.

First, Metal was asking about Mollie not answering Grib, and somehow Plum tunred it into Mollie and WNI. Second, I personally use the phrase "talking past each other" when I'm referring to two people of the same alignment (or if I'm unsure of their alignment but believe they are the same alignment I'll say something like "I believe you two might be talking past each other"). It's like Plum knew WNI and I/Mollie had the same alignment.

VOTE: Plum

[Bellaphant]

@ika:
1)who are your strongest reads?
2) Who are you having trouble sorting?
3)What am I missing about the set-up/is set-up spec really unhelpful?
4)Why were you asking about fruit?
5)What's your read on me?
6)Any questions for me?
7)I kinda have a terrible scum-read on you: why am I wrong?

1) grib/tere are my tops, boo is potential but its ~reason~
2) boo, plume cus of tere, everyone else that i porb havent mentioned nor cared for
3) depends on setup itself. the answer for this i more theory talk. I can elaborate on it but i can also just OGC you about those things later cus it is more theory.
4) setup spec
5) honestly i could rationalize both scum and town. gun to head i would say town but i need more out of you
6) yes, whats your town/scum reads? do you think there is a rb? what you think of cho being vig and fialing on frogger?
7) cus your a woman and ~stuff~ and im a man and ~stuff~ (yes even in game i will make that horribale refrence)

1) talk to me about boo, please?
2) who would you lynch today?
3) This kind of links to the RB/BP thing: a strong scum team like that, I'd expect a bunch of PRs. Some peeps were soft-claiming everywhere day1, iirc, but I'm not sure.
4) k, why? Share your thoughts on this?
5) Cool, I'm town, and I'm happy with my play this day phase.
6) I literally just made a reads list. Feel free to comment on it. Frogger is town, and I'm happy town-read chokari, based on yukari's newb-flailing
7) I'm serious. tere says you are engaged as town + im not feelin it

[Fro99er]

Ika, ready to reconnect?

[Tere]

I can't remember if I said, but, Bella, Uncouth Mafia and Drawn on Arrival are examples of ika's actual scum game. He's far less connected there. I'm confident he's town.

[Plum]

@Frogger

Like you, I thought Grib's point about the wagons was relevant. Super relevant. From early on in my Mafia career I've generally found that pursuing scum on a scum lynch and scum off a Town lynch fruitful. Th latter because a number of things coinciding: Scumteams usually not *all* being on a Town wagon, especially early in the game; scum needing to construct a reason to *not* consider and/or vote the wagoned Townie. I was happy to vote ZZZX on basis of that and the hope that pressuring a slot that wasn't near the top in contribution to that point would be relevant. It was. It came to a point where I reread ZZZX and in context, concluded that he was not that likely scum on basis of wagon distribution Day 1. His voting patterns Day 1 did not suggest opportunism/scum attempting to find a way to avoid being on the MS wagon. Furthermore, I was becoming increasingly convinced that wagon analysis + other stuff suggested that Bookitty was likely to have been a Day 1 wagon on scum and ZZZX-scum made even less sense in that context. So I bloody reconsidered. I reread. I was satisfied.

For goodness sake tell me also what's opportunistic about my Bookitty vote while you're here.

I don't know what you people mean by 'sorting'. Obviously terminology after my time, really, because everyone keeps using the word. Does it mean 'determine a reasonably strong read on a player to be going on with'? Does it mean 'literally determine another player's alignment beyond a doubt, e.g. via lynch'? I've sorted you and Cho for today for the first definition. For the second, I think my response to the first indicates why I'm not interested in a lynch to get the second currently.

For heaven's sake it's possible to deliberately talk past someone. At least the way I use the phrase. Continuing to talk in a 'why haven't you answered my question?'/'I have answered your question, why are you pretending I didn't' for pages and pages was a big bulk of that conversation between Frogmollie and WNI. Was I ruling out either player talking past the other deliberately/continuing the conversation in that vein as scum? No. I was not. Frogmollie had spent pages and pages insisting to WNI she'd explained her scumread on MS. It didn't register to me as some sort of change from that status quo when she had a similar response to Grib questioning along those lines, bolded red though it might have been.

[Fro99er]

@Plum: I'm heading to the gym then dinner, so I'll reply in full after.

But real quick, your response to bella about the part I believe is a scumslip was even worse. And certainly not town motivated.

Spoiler: Plumslip, Bella reply, Plum reply

hey plum

why do you find it so angst that I did not answer a tiny question that you hid at the back of a paragraph that was part of a huge wallpost? which was to explain my scumread on you

yet when mollie ignored grib's extremely large red bold text font question. to explain a scumread on me. you don't call her out?


even if you think that they are town, thats far beyond extreme hypocrisy.

WNI and Frogmollie have been talking past each other for pages and pages. At best, each is entrenched in their view of the situation. They both feel the other hasn't given them a fair shake or hasn't

really

answered their questions, and have often replied to 'why haven't you answered my question' with 'I already have, why haven't you answered mine?' and that sort of thing. One of the questions being large and in red text doesn't change the whole situation. It's just more rhetoric, and I've seen more than enough of it.

@plum, I mentioned a similar reading of the situation to WNI a while ago, and it didn't go down too well. It's frustrating I know, but do you think it's alignment indicative at all?

@plum, I mentioned a similar reading of the situation to WNI a while ago, and it didn't go down too well. It's frustrating I know, but do you think it's alignment indicative at all?

Meh. I'd rather hear something new and exciting from you.

[Plum]

Oh my god. By "Meh" I meant to indicate "yeah, I'm not sure it's alignment indicative, but given where my vote is and the way things are, making that point isn't really new or impressive or helpful, so why don't you &c.?' In fact I never argued that WNI or Frogmollie was scum on basis of *how* the argument was being handled (though I questioned why WNI hadn't pursued a Frogmollie vote or anything given his clear stance and read there). So Bellaphant's comment to me seemed barely relevant. Or, you might say, "meh".

[ika]

i will get to this probally tonight, i have a lot of rl stuff atm

[Tere]

Sigh. I don't know if its a style thing but honestly Plum's stuff seems so carefully crafted / considered to me I am not in a happy place. I think my vote has to stay there.

I kinda want to add :/ to that because it could be a style thing and she is engaging a bit more now.

Bunch of bloody scumlords.

I will be outdoing social stuff with my Mum tomorrow but hydrangea is the compromise lynch if we must. But the scripted tone of Plum is still giving me heebie jeebies. And the non notified l-2 on z was aurrrrgh. I need to remember that.

[Fro99er]

I don't know what you people mean by 'sorting'.

To me, sorting is as defined. To be able to "arrange in groups". In the context of mafia, it means being able to place someone in the scum pile or the town pile (or if multiball parties existed, those piles) via whatever means necessary. This could include (but not limited to):
- Town tells
- Meta
- Reading their soul
- PoE
- Night actions
- etc.
So, in another context, when I have a bunch of red and green marbles, I can sort them by color into the red pile and the green pile. Unless I'm red/green color blind. This is how I view you on myself/Cho. Color blind.

I wish I were convinced that just one flip in this game could resolve anything. And I blame Yukari entirely. I have every reason to believe that whatever your alignment is, you're playing it in a way I and most others would recognize as rational. I have no reason to believe that, whatever Yukari's alignment (I'd say Town if you put a gun to my head, so), they were playing it in a way I or most here would recognize as rational

You have yet to sort either of us into the scum or town pile. Just some 'gun to your head' stuff. You use the prase 'whatever your alignment is' about both myself and Chokari slot. That's not sorting.

Obviously terminology after my time, really, because everyone keeps using the word. Does it mean 'determine a reasonably strong read on a player to be going on with'? Does it mean 'literally determine another player's alignment beyond a doubt, e.g. via lynch'? I've sorted you and Cho for today for the first definition. For the second, I think my response to the first indicates why I'm not interested in a lynch to get the second currently.

So your reason for not wanting to pursue the 1v1 is because you've 'sorted' us? I don't believe you've sorted us, except by your odd defintion of 'determining a strong read', because I haven't seen you put a strong read on us. You haven't solidly put either of us in the town pile or the scum pile. You've indicated (not clearly though) town leans on both of us, but, sorting? No.

I can understand Tere's motivation for not pursuing the 1v1. She strong town reads both myself and Cho.

[Fro99er]

Tere, are you seriously going to do this...

Mollie, you know me well. How clear do I have to be on a read before I go for a strong scum read?

Genuine question.

God can you people not lynch obvscum I rarely do this Jesus fuck.

...threaten to rage postgame, then drive off my hydra partner, and then now back off on your Plum convictions?

Sigh. I don't know if its a style thing but honestly Plum's stuff seems so carefully crafted / considered to me I am not in a happy place. I think my vote has to stay there.

I kinda want to add :/ to that because it could be a style thing and she is engaging a bit more now.

Bunch of bloody scumlords.

I will be outdoing social stuff with my Mum tomorrow but hydrangea is the compromise lynch if we must. But the scripted tone of Plum is still giving me heebie jeebies. And the non notified l-2 on z was aurrrrgh. I need to remember that.

I'd rather not go for a compromise lynch. I'd rather SORT IMPORTANT STUFF OUT.

Either

myself/Cho
Plum/Boo

Those will be more informative flips for town IMO.

[Fro99er]

Oh my god. By "Meh" I meant to indicate "yeah, I'm not sure it's alignment indicative, but given where my vote is and the way things are, making that point isn't really new or impressive or helpful, so why don't you &c.?' In fact I never argued that WNI or Frogmollie was scum on basis of *how* the argument was being handled (though I questioned why WNI hadn't pursued a Frogmollie vote or anything given his clear stance and read there). So Bellaphant's comment to me seemed barely relevant. Or, you might say, "meh".

I mean, Bella was agreeing about WNI and Mollie not seeing eye to eye, and trying to engage you on that and make conversation about it about alignment. And you just brushed her off.

Also, why did you never vote metal. You kept sayinig how scummy he was at end of D1, but you never voted him at end of D1.

[ZZZX]

Wanted to do this today but I wouldnt give it my all now, so tomorrow is the day.

[Tere]

@frogger I am not doing a 1 v 1 you and Cho today.

I can back a 1 v 1 with plum / boo. I am still screading Plum in case it is not obvious. The "frustration" reads fake, it all feels a bit planned.

[Fro99er]

@frogger I am not doing a 1 v 1 you and Cho today.

I get that, and that's fine. I'm just trying to make a point not to settle for a compromise lynch.

I can back a 1 v 1 with plum / boo. I am still screading Plum in case it is not obvious. The "frustration" reads fake, it all feels a bit planned.

What happened to obvscum though? You sound like you're starting to doubt yourself a little on Plum.

[Tere]

I genuinely don't feel I have been that shitty to Mollie BTW. The pity party, the attempts to force a 1 v 1, the patronising crap (surely you are aware that Mollie can be patronising as fuck because I do genuinely like her and I sure as fuck am), the repeated requests to lynch her, none of that was town productive. i asked nicely for her to back off and give you space the first time, but bluntly I want the person in my obvtown slot to be playing to wincon and I am not going to apologise for that.

[Fro99er]

This isn't about Mollie now. I know how she feels about it. Let's focus on the game now, k? Thanks.

[dragonspawn]

I have no idea what you're on about with this snipy "unprompted readslist" thing. I thought you would explain, but apparently not. Anyway, check THIS out. It will blow your mind.

Boo and dragon aren't really making me town-read them, there doesn't seem to be a huge connection to the game. Boo's been pretty flexible with her thoughts, which is a plus, but I'd also like something concrete from them.

@boo, readslist?

This post keeps sticking out with me. For one I like it. Makes me think slightly better of boo.

But it seems that plum was arguing unprompted read list from boo while Bella was requesting a read list from boo. Am I wrong with that observation?

That just feels off to me.

[Bookitty]

I would like Plum to line out her case on me. So far I have that my wagon was almost entirely town (which seems true) and that I conveniently gave a reads list unprompted (which isn't true). Could you explain more about your read on me, please, Plum?

[Tere]

@frogger I am not doing a 1 v 1 you and Cho today.

I get that, and that's fine. I'm just trying to make a point not to settle for a compromise lynch.

I can back a 1 v 1 with plum / boo. I am still screading Plum in case it is not obvious. The "frustration" reads fake, it all feels a bit planned.

What happened to obvscum though? You sound like you're starting to doubt yourself a little on Plum.

I am, a little. Have a good look at her wall of reads. Her style is incredibly dense but I read through that a few times this morning. Its the only think giving my pause. On the other hand I think her frustration post looked incredibly scripted.

I will not lynch you grib or ika today. I will strongly argue against Cho and Bella today. I had another look at zz and he is still probtowb but he will be useless at lylo I imagine.

Plum is still my best bet. I don't like hydrangea though which is giving me pause plus boo is sliding down my townfeels. Dragon is still a scumlord.

Ugh, I could throw a dice in that seven almost :/