A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Rob14]

Vote Count #1.16:

Mirhawk:

THE WRONG LYNCH, SirCakez, The Pied Piper, Cerberus v666, Sakura Hana (5)

Friendless Seniors:

SnarkySnowman, podoboq, Ranger, beeboy (4)

Skybird:

Amihan, Spiffeh, Mirhawk, pistachi0n (4)

Axelrod:

dramonic, Friendless Seniors, True Ogre (3)

dramonic:

davesaz, Axelrod (2)

pistachi0n:

tictac (1)

The Pied Piper:

Tammy (1)

Not Voting:

Skybird

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

Amihan until 4/1.
Plotinus (of The Pied Piper) until 4/3.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

[The Pied Piper]

@Rob: nacho's v/la too now for a couple days so our whole hydra is v/la

(Nacho-head) needs to go on V/LA for a couple of days in order to work on something site-related.

[SirCakez]

WAIT this means Cheet can join omg

I'm sorry, I'm not Cheetory.
You'll have to live with someone who's probably not quite that good but is still at least decent.

No you're great too. I just remembered Cheet being on top of the replacements list :p

I actually really like Ogre's Axel case. Axel saying "Seniors is worthy of a vote is a joke" reeks of backtracking for example.

[SirCakez]

Swords was definitely new PP, I play with him off site.
Snarky is still unreadable, for the people debating that. Someone please Vig him tonight.

[SnarkySnowman]

Or don't vig me tonight, that would be nice. I take a while to get into large games, and I'm not quite feeling this one yet.

[Spiffeh]

Do something and maybe you wouldn't be a consideration?

I asked you a question a few pages back and I'm sure others have as well

Please answer them

[Cerberus v666]

Snarky, i can't imagine why you wouldn't be vigged tonight. Maybe if you actually gave people a reason to townread you and think you wouldn't be an unreadable slot that has produced no content in the late game, people wouldn't consider vigging you to be a good idea.

[SirCakez]

Snarky you're doing literally nothing. Make us not want to vig you.

[beeboy]

Or don't vig me tonight, that would be nice. I take a while to get into large games, and I'm not quite feeling this one yet.

Your heart may not be in the right place but your vote is <3

[podoboq]

So Ranger says we should decide between Mirhawk and FS today.

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

[Mirhawk]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

Yuck no. You aren't nearly town enough to tell us who the lynch pool is.

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon? Or are you just staying on seniors to make sure the skybird wagon isn't bigger than it?

[Cerberus v666]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

Yuck no. You aren't nearly town enough to tell us who the lynch pool is.

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon? Or are you just staying on seniors to make sure the skybird wagon isn't bigger than it?

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

[davesaz]

Wow, a post that takes a whole browser page dedicated to figuring a player out, that's interesting in its own right. It would be interesting even if it weren't me. (pedit I lost the part of the quote tag identifying the post but it's not difficult for others to find it and I don't want to dig it up again so carrying on...)

Plenty of inferences can be made from it, granted. I just have a preference for straightforward "Joe is scum because of X,Y,Z" type posts.

You may prefer this when you're reading but you don't prefer this when you're writing.

I do try to make reasons clear for my scumreads, though it would not surprise me a bit if they are less clear for others. One of my RL struggles is difficulty in getting my assumptions right about what other people understand. Also available time varies a lot plus I do know how to strategically use a weak push for reactions...

But this is where I think that you're at with this game right now, correct me if I'm wrong:

Your main scumreads are dramonic and mirhawk, in that order. You're getting suspicious of Axel or are in the process of trying to sort him right now. You were scumreading one of amihan/pistachi0n before the claim was retracted but haven't interacted with them since.

Fairly accurate.

Your biggest townreads are me and True Ogre, maybe beeboy too but you've had that read for a long time and I'm not sure whether it's still existing or if it's gone stale. You're townleaning tictac too.

No read on tictac at all. And "biggest" is relative, I typically don't have someone in a strong townread this early and this game is no exception.

You were defending seniors early on (90, 92) but you backed down pretty quickly in response to pressure and haven't interacted with them since. I'm worried that this is a result of beeboy taking the stance that everyone who supported his tunnel was town and everyone who resisted it was scum because beeboy was making a lot of noise and you may have worried that beeboy's guns may be turned on you. You've been explicitly townreading beeboy since 463.

Defending Seniors is incorrect. I didn't have a read at that point. It is more accurate to say that in 90 I was questioning the method used by beeboy. There was no point in followup because it was obvious that beeboy was going to tunnel the point. 92 is a weak scumread of Snarky. No fear involved, I feel confident that this playerlist is likely to read me correctly (after getting it wrong multiple times in the past). As noted below, beeboy is more "not scum" than "clearly town".

Everyone else is a morass of null for you but gun to your head you are more suspicious about this half of the players (S -> W): mirhawk, dramonic, Axel, spiffeh, skybird, cakez, podoboq, snarky, amihan, pistachi0n,
and more trusting of this half of the players (S -> W): True Ogre, Us, beeboy, tictac, The Wrong Lynch, seniors, cerb, tammy, sakura, ranger

Spiffeh on the nulltown side, cakez is stale and needs review, amihan is much more town than that, tictac is much lower, seniors somewhat lower. Ranger could do this as scum so I'd start her in the middle and will need to see post-catchup activity to determine whether this is a strong town entrance or a masterful scum one. I'm warming up to the Ranger style reads lists, with fewer tiers, vs the S->W method. In fact enough players have town S->W and scum W->S, or vice versa, that I didn't interpret the town list correctly on first read. Tammy and Sakura would be higher, I haven't put much effort into sorting your slot and you'd be lower due to that, and it's most accurate to say that beeboy doesn't look scum but I wouldn't sheep.

Do you think Mirhawk and Dramonic are scum together, or are your reads on them independent? Is Dramonic bussing Axel?

I don't generally make associations this early, and in this case everything is still very independent.

You said that you have trouble reading Spiffeh, is this in both directions? Do you tend to townread him as scum and scumread him as town, or do you tend to scumread him as both alignments?

For me, trouble reading means a player stays null for a long time and it's never really strong either way.

[Sakura Hana]

I think Ranger's town.

[Tammy]

I was a big, fat liar when I said I'd get here yesterday. Slight possibility you'll see me today, otherwise pinky promises tomorrow.

[Axelrod]

MAYBE YOU AND I DONT USE THE SAME TERMINOLOGY BUT TO SHEEP SOMEONE IS TO VOTE THE SAME AS ANOTHER PERSON WHO YOU THINK IS TOWN JUST BECAUSE YOU TRUST THEM NOT VOTING SOMEONE BECAUSE YOU ALREADY THINK THEY ARE SCUMMY.

Did you not read my post where I talked about the terrible things Skybird did?

I read your post. You did not talk about "all the terrible things Skybird did." I mean, you quoted one post of Skybird. And that post wasn't anything even game related. If was a self-observation where Skybird said he plays the way he plays and some people think it's scummy but he doesn't care. It certainly seemed to me your desire to "sheep" Amihan was the driving factor behind that vote.

Me "telling you what you would and wouldn't say" is me noting that you're exhibiting unreasonable behavior as town if you actually wanted to act in a protown way.

What unreasonable behavior are we talking about? The fact that, as I'm noting the difference in style between your two heads, I didn't also ask the Town at large, "Hey, how does Hiplop play as scum?" That unreasonableness?

Because, that's not unreasonable.

Secondly, no, nothing in your original post suggested you were "re-evaluating your reads" because you were finding ways to paint us as scum.
Exhibit A: "See there's this perfectly reasonable explanation for why EP looks better but I'm going to ignore that explanation in favor of the explanation that paints us as scum"
Exhibit B: "I'm also going to ignore the part where EP said Skybird was scum in favor of painting that vote like a sheep vote"

Okay, Exhibit A: I wasn't "painting" anyone anything. I was pointing out the dichotomy I was noticing between your two heads. And the fact that the one head sounded better than the other didn't mean that I was just going to ignore the totality of the posts, including the ones I had an issue with specifically. Are you really saying I should just write off 1/2 (it was more than 1/2 at the time) of your posts?

Exhibit B: You SAID it was a Sheep vote. Actually, if I'm being fair, looking back what you said was that you "might" want to sheep there (because you thought Ami was Town). Followed immediately in your next post with the vote. You quoted that one post of Skybird's, which, again, didn't look like much of a basis to be jumping on him, and it looked to me like your desire to "sheep" was the main reason. Why did you even use that terminology if it wasn't really?

THAT BEING SAID: there is something tone-wise about Skybird that makes me think that she might be town which makes the axel vote even better

So, what "tone-wise" is making you reconsider? And how would Skybird being Town make your vote for me better? (Because you wouldn't be voting for a Townie? q.e.d?)

[Mirhawk]

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

[Mirhawk]

Oh and shes scumreading my meta when she hasn't seen my town game. Nuts to that.

[Axelrod]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

What did you find righteous about it?

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

I'd also like to know how your opinion on podo influences the game's outcome to the point that "we're just going to lose" if he's scum since your opinion is that he's town.

He's stating how I feel about the way Dramonic is playing in a manner that (a) I could never do because I'm too polite, even though I think it, and (b) with a sincerity that is almost impossible for scum to fake. It made me want to cheer. After all the people who are apparently just willing to give him a pass.

The other thing is just something I sometimes say. It's mostly a joke (obviously whether I think he's Town doesn't influence anyone else), but he's coming across so strongly as Town right now, that I don't see him ever being lynched. So, if he's never lynched - but he's actually scum - and therefore not getting night-killed - Town loses.

[Mirhawk]

Also where the heck is TWL?

I haven't seen anything of substance from them since 751.

[Cerberus v666]

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

I believe she said she wouldn't be offering reasons along with her reads list, but that we were welcome to ask her for details. The point that she's slotted people in places with no explanation is worthless. Nothing about her catchup seems "fake" to me except the fact that the two biggest wagons are also her two strongest scum reads. That does read as contrived, but it could also simply mean that those two slots have done a number of things which are objectively scummy/anti-town, or that she was swayed by the arguments people have made about those slots which she read as she was catching up.

The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.

For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.

I need to interact with people other than you/FS, right now the game is revolving around too few people for me to be comfortable with the game state, but I feel as though my initial read through was too hasty and I don't have a firm grasp on the nuances of things.

[Mirhawk]

The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.

She's stated that she will switch to my wagon if it's bigger, and it is. In fact if she switched from seniors wagon to mine it would be three votes higher than seniors, which is a significant amount.
However if she does switch that would make Skybird's wagon bigger than seniors, which is a problem for her since she's suggesting that the only two viable wagons are Seniors and Mine.
Don't get me wrong I have an ulterior motive here too. I don't want to be lynched, and I don't think Seniors is scum, so I'm against discluding Skybirds wagon from contention.

For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.

Sorry?

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, there's nothing to be sorry about there. I'm pointing out that there are town motivations to controlling wagon sizes deliberately. That's all.

[Marquis]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

[Cerberus v666]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Marquis, you're not in this game, so you just alt-slipped.