A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[itlepip]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

Holy shit. That makes perfect sense. Are you voting him yet? Cause I am now.

VOTE: Mirhawk

[itlepip]

<3 yeah I'm voting him.

[SirCakez]

I listed some of that stuff (dave case being bad, jumping wagons on whatever's popular) in my case on him but it got ignored/called misrep q.q

[Cerberus v666]

That's cuz you're kinda scummy cakez. Pip isn't. :p

[SirCakez]

It's still the same points though

[podoboq]

Gah, stop making me post. I got places to be.

You and podo did not have the same case.

Your case relied on me knowing Ami's claim was false from the start. Which was impossible unless I was scum with Ami (which you weren't saying).

Podo's case was that I knew they were both town and was trying to get towncred (or something like that). I'd have to go back and look for the exact reason for podo's case, but it was definitely different.

You're messing up the logic.

The issue we both had was with your knowledge that the claim was false. That knowledge, logically, in both our cases, came from you being scum. As scum, you would know that Ami was town, and could logically deduct that it was unlikely there were two millers, therefore you knew the claim was false.

That is identical in both our posts. You simply misunderstood my original post, and missed how I never said you knew that from firsthand knowledge, but instead said it was simply a reasonable conclusion for scum to draw.

I, too, would need to go back and reread them to remember what the exact differences were from that point forward, but I definitely remember being extremely irritated when you accepted podoboq's reasons as perfectly fine, when they were in fact identical to mine at their root.

That's something very irritating to me in general.

Anyways. Go off and do your things. You misrepresenting/misunderstanding what I said has been handled for now.

This is, for the most part, accurate.

My problem with Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller CC was that it seemed like he was scum, who knew that the two must be town, maneuvering between the two in a way that would have given him towncred upon either flipping town.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. You explained what scum motivation there would be for his behavior, why I explained why his knowledge of their claim being fake made sense if he were scum. I started earlier in the logical path, and you ended at a later point, basically. The most important part of the whole thing was the same for both of us.

It's not a very significant thing to still be talking about thiugh, and I don't see how Mirhawk could seriously be trying to use the fact that Cakez didn't elaborate more on something that, from the looks of it, only Mirhawk failed to understand, against cakez.

[podoboq]

Yeah. You explained what scum motivation there would be for his behavior, why I explained why his knowledge of their claim being fake made sense if he were scum. I started earlier in the logical path, and you ended at a later point, basically. The most important part of the whole thing was the same for both of us.

It's not a very significant thing to still be talking about thiugh, and I don't see how Mirhawk could seriously be trying to use the fact that Cakez didn't elaborate more on something that, from the looks of it, only Mirhawk failed to understand, against cakez.

Right, I just wanted to make sure that Mirhawk saw me say that that is how intended it. You spoke for me, and I just wanted to clarify that you did so accurately.

[Cerberus v666]

Cool. What are your thoughts on what itlepip just said?

[podoboq]

Cool. What are your thoughts on what itlepip just said?

Sounds pretty damning, and I made a mental note to go ISO him to confirm that what itlepip is saying is actually how it went down. Since you asked, I'll do the ISO now.

[podoboq]

OK, yeah, itlepip is right. That's pretty damn scummy. I don't see any kind of misrep.

I can see lynching Mirhawk today, but I don't want to abandon the Skybird wagon, at least not yet.

[Skybird]

I'm not sure where the vote count is, but I hope I will be given the opportunity to claim before lynch.

@Dave, I'm glad someone gets me in this game. Can we be in-thread masons?

[itlepip]

For me the warm fuzzies that Sky got are in 829 are enough for me to like killing Mir more.

[Skybird]

Mirhawk, one of the reasons you wanted to lynch Ranger was because Ranger thought I was town and defended me. You also said that you would use the Ranger flip to figure me out. (post 2305) Ranger flipped town. And yet, you are still scum reading me. I don't see the logic there. You pushed for a mislynch and now you are pushing for a second one.

[Axelrod]

Okay, I'm just going to post "Day 1" of Skybird for now. I don't have time for more. Can skip to

TLDR

if you want.

Skybird's very first interaction was with True Ogre in #128. True Ogre asked a question and Skybird answered it. The answer was fine. What's slightly more interesting is that Skybird parried back by asking Ogre a question in return ("Any players that stick out as good or bad?") And this is not really ever followed up on. Ogre answered back in #381 with a non-answer ("I'd be delighted for you to nominate a person to have a take on") and nothing further happens. This will become a recurring pattern.

Skybird asks Dram twice to explain his reasoning for thinking that I (Axel) am scum (#465; #636, which Dram obviously ignores), but Skybird still has Dram "leaning Town" in #697 because he's playing like he played in some other game.

Question to Skybird: Did Dram vote people for no reason and ignore repeated requests to give his reasons in that game too? Because, if so, why are you even asking him to give his reasons in the first place? Was this actually some kind of trap question where his lack of response is what's making you think he's Townie, but if Dram had actually answered you,

that

would have made you think he was scum?

Aside from the Townlean on Dram, there's nothing else that sticks out as far as her early reads go in 697. That all looks fine to me.

Then there's her interaction with Amihan/Marquis, which I guess is the start of Marquis' push which continues to now. Ami made an early post where she said something to the effect of she hopes to get townread early this game so she doesn't have to work so hard. Skybird said she didn't understand/like that post because it sounded like Ami didn't want to scumhunt. Davesaz pointed out that Ami had recently played a game where she had to work very hard not to get lynched and said he understood where she was coming from. Skybird asked Ami for a link to that game. Ami responded by actually

voting

for Skybird (and not giving her a gamelink either).

Skybird's response is in #723. This is where Skybird says she plays the way she plays and doesn't care what other people think. She "notes" Ami's decision to scumread her for it. This isn't a great response. I can sympathize with lashing out a bit against someone voting you, but this is maybe a bit of an over-reaction to what Ami actually posted. Ami just said she thought Skybird was asking questions without following up like she didn't really care about the answers. She also said it was just an early vote. And Ami. was basically right - questions to True Ogre and Dram went unanswered and unfollowed up on).

I think the next couple of posts are fine. Sky gives some reads, she gets some attention, and she asks the people giving her the attention to explain.

#991 is a little out of left field. She asks Sakura to give her opinion on PP because PP is "making these long posts and my eyes glaze over before I've even started reading them. " But she had

just

said (in #829 that PP's posting was giving her "warm fuzzies" and that they could be Town for now. So, what's up with that? As best I can tell, PP did not post a large number of "wall" posts between those two posts of Skybird's. Maybe one?

Sakura Hana answers this question by quoting herself from a few posts before, and that's all that's said about that.

There's a bunch of questions next (to Snarky, to Beeboy, to Mirhawk, to pistachion), and I'm not looking up if those questions were answered or not, but it appears

Skybird

never followed up any of them any further. So, that's not great either.

First actual vote is for Friendless Seniors in #1444. I don't think Skybird had mentioned FS before this. The context was, however, that FS had recently voted Skybird, and this was a vote I have criticized Friendless Seniors for myself. So, I'm possibly biased but I don't mind the OMGUS so much here.

This vote will stick for the rest of the day.

Skybird is absent for 3 days. When she comes back, she challenges the people expressing suspicion of her (FS, Beeboy), and, not much else. She does not really engage in any kind of larger scum-hunting. She expresses that she's satisfied with her FS vote. She does give opinions about True Ogre (town) and Ranger (town), and then the deadline hits.


So,

TLDR

: There is a definite lack of scum-hunting. She's asking a lot of questions to a lot of people, but isn't following them up and does not appear particularly interested in the answers. Lurky. I don't actually mind the FS vote in and of itself, but she herself doesn't really argue it or try to convince anyone else. She just says she's "still ok" with her vote at the end. She was present and participating at the deadline.

Overall, for D1 at least, I would put her "leaning scum". There's no smoking guns (though the questions about her PP read and the Dram reads are real).

[Dwlee99]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

ftr I have a bad memory and do this a lot. Like I've had full blown scum reads just leave my brain overnight and I can't figure out why I scum read them.

[itlepip]

ftr I have a bad memory and do this a lot. Like I've had full blown scum reads just leave my brain overnight and I can't figure out why I scum read them.

I highly advise taking notes, it has helped both my scum and town games a lot.

Though to address this point. If you are hard pushing a wagon, realize that you have no idea why you think that person is scummy anymore and then you never mention that you've 180ed on that read and just ignore that person for the rest of the game then that's just one of the times where town inexplicitely play as scummy as possible just to fuck with people. Changing your reads or forgetting reads are fine, people do that all the time, but you need to be transparent about it.

[Dwlee99]

ftr I have a bad memory and do this a lot. Like I've had full blown scum reads just leave my brain overnight and I can't figure out why I scum read them.

I highly advise taking notes, it has helped both my scum and town games a lot.

Though to address this point. If you are hard pushing a wagon, realize that you have no idea why you think that person is scummy anymore and then you never mention that you've 180ed on that read and just ignore that person for the rest of the game then that's just one of the times where town inexplicitely play as scummy as possible just to fuck with people. Changing your reads or forgetting reads are fine, people do that all the time, but you need to be transparent about it.

oops I play this game wrong. When it's happened to me I just dont mention the person.

[Dwlee99]

if anyone has anything other than "he forgot to push his scum read" i'd love to hear it

[Cerberus v666]

if anyone has anything other than "he forgot to push his scum read" i'd love to hear it

I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

I think I did, too.

I can't remember which game (which is odd, I only have 8, you'd think I would but I don't), but I think I did. Maybe Machina?

Final thing before I go: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, Sakura Hana}
{Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq}
{Spiffeh, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch}
{dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors,

Mirhawk

}

The changes here are Pied Piper and Sakura Hana going to untouchable town, me feeling better about The Wrong Lynch (no specific reason why, just a general thing), and davesaz getting knocked down a tier. This is mainly because I feel like he should know I'm town this game. He's seen me as scum

twice

. He's also seen me as town many times. He should be aware this is not like the scum games, yet he is pushing me anyway and in spite of me answering his call, his vote remains, unchanged, with no additional reason and no additional response, similar to Spiffeh in that regard.

Vote Count #1.27 (FINAL):

Ranger:

davesaz, Amihan,

Mirhawk

, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Friendless Seniors:

Skybird, Ranger, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n (6)

SirCakez:

Tammy, True Ogre (2)

Mirhawk:

Cerberus v666 (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

Ranger,

J. M. Barrie (Vanilla Townie])

from

Finding Neverland

, was lynched Day 1.

Night 1 has begun. Please submit all night actions within (expired on 2016-04-08 20:00:00).

[/align]

Rangers pretty good at catching scum. Ranger is now known to be town. That's sufficient cause for me...plus there's the whole fake claim thing. And what Itlepip just said.

I find it rather offputting, however, for someone who has expressed a distinct desire to avoid reading the game to come in and demand a stronger case on someone.

Why do you think he's town dwlee? Or rather, what is lacking in itlepips logic and reasoning? I understand that you're a terrible player who does inconsistent things, based on what you just said you do(that is, forgetting about your scum reads etc.), but are you trying to say that it ISN'T scummy for someone to do that? Is it perfectly acceptable, nay, even town, of someone to be inconsistent and opportunistic, in your opinion? If what he did isn't scummy, what has been done that you've witnessed and read so far in this game, which you would view as scummy?

[Dwlee99]

if anyone has anything other than "he forgot to push his scum read" i'd love to hear it

I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

I think I did, too.

I can't remember which game (which is odd, I only have 8, you'd think I would but I don't), but I think I did. Maybe Machina?

Final thing before I go: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, Sakura Hana}
{Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq}
{Spiffeh, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch}
{dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors,

Mirhawk

}

The changes here are Pied Piper and Sakura Hana going to untouchable town, me feeling better about The Wrong Lynch (no specific reason why, just a general thing), and davesaz getting knocked down a tier. This is mainly because I feel like he should know I'm town this game. He's seen me as scum

twice

. He's also seen me as town many times. He should be aware this is not like the scum games, yet he is pushing me anyway and in spite of me answering his call, his vote remains, unchanged, with no additional reason and no additional response, similar to Spiffeh in that regard.

Vote Count #1.27 (FINAL):

Ranger:

davesaz, Amihan,

Mirhawk

, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Friendless Seniors:

Skybird, Ranger, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n (6)

SirCakez:

Tammy, True Ogre (2)

Mirhawk:

Cerberus v666 (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

Ranger,

J. M. Barrie (Vanilla Townie])

from

Finding Neverland

, was lynched Day 1.

Night 1 has begun. Please submit all night actions within (expired on 2016-04-08 20:00:00).

[/align]

Rangers pretty good at catching scum. Ranger is now known to be town. That's sufficient cause for me...plus there's the whole fake claim thing. And what Itlepip just said.

I find it rather offputting, however, for someone who has expressed a distinct desire to avoid reading the game to come in and demand a stronger case on someone.

Why do you think he's town dwlee? Or rather, what is lacking in itlepips logic and reasoning? I understand that you're a terrible player who does inconsistent things, based on what you just said you do(that is, forgetting about your scum reads etc.), but are you trying to say that it ISN'T scummy for someone to do that? Is it perfectly acceptable, nay, even town, of someone to be inconsistent and opportunistic, in your opinion? If what he did isn't scummy, what has been done that you've witnessed and read so far in this game, which you would view as scummy?

not gonna blindly sheep ranger, but really i have mirhawk in a firm null. I'm trying to understand this more. I don't recall the inconsistent and opportunistic things but I don't think forgetting scum reads is alignment indicative. Idk yet.

[Dwlee99]

someone being town doesn't make them right ffs

[Rob14]

Vote Count #2.13:

Skybird:

Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, SirCakez, Malakittens, Mirhawk (6)

The Pied Piper:

True Ogre, Friendless Seniors, Dwlee99, dramonic (4)

SirCakez:

pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird (3)

Mirhawk:

itlepip, Cerberus v666 (2)

Not Voting:

Axelrod, davesaz

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-22 21:00:00)

[Cerberus v666]

someone being town doesn't make them right ffs

Agreed. But someone being town and having a read that matches my own while someone else brings up examples of scummy behavior that are EXACTLY the sort of inconsistency in narrative and play that I use to catch scum makes me give their read a lot more weight.

Plus, I'm kinda disengaged from the game, and until that changes I'm totally okay sheeping conftown reads.

Pedit: Rob13, is that VC correct?