A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Mirhawk]

*facepalm*
Everything from the case I posted a while ago still applies + town was lynched as a counterwagon to you.

You could at least give me a post number, I'm not digging through you iso.

Who pushed this counterwagon?

[Mirhawk]

*your

[SirCakez]

You're being intentionally obtuse. The counterwagon was FS obviously, I shouldn't need to literally go back and copy paste the wagon for you.
The case was back on Day 2 iirc. I'll dig it up later, you already responded to it I think.

[The Pied Piper]

The point that I'm making is that those two unvotes from your wagon were not the reason your wagon didn't go through.

And neither were you so stop trying to take credit for it.

The reason you were not lynched was because FS was lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

The reason FS was lynched was because we pushed the wagon.

[SirCakez]

The point that I'm making is that those two unvotes from your wagon were not the reason your wagon didn't go through.

And neither were you so stop trying to take credit for it.

The reason you were not lynched was because FS was lynched.

^^^

[Mirhawk]

@Cakez
I think you misunderstood.

Who pushed the counterwagon, not who was the counterwagon.

[The Pied Piper]

It doesn't make sense for us to take credit for lynching a townie over another townie; again, your side of the argument is that we were trying to get you lynched yesterday. Our side of the argument is no, that's not the case. If your argument is that we were trying to get you lynched the next day, okay, that's different, but it should be immensely clear that our preference was FS and that the FS wagon was the reason your wagon died.

[SirCakez]

Friendless Seniors: The Pied Piper, Flubbernugget, talah, Axelrod, Malakittens, davesaz, podoboq, itlepip, Mirhawk (9)

Actually look at this wagon. Mir hammered it, Axel was in it in a safe spot, another scumread for me (Flubber) lead it.

[Mirhawk]

The point that I'm making is that those two unvotes from your wagon were not the reason your wagon didn't go through.

And neither were you so stop trying to take credit for it.

The reason you were not lynched was because FS was lynched.

The reason FS was lynched was because we pushed the wagon.

Nooo, the reason I wasn't lynched is because my wagon couldn't find the last votes they needed.

The reason Seniors was lynched was because of the deadline.

There were at least a few people who only got on his wagon to avoid a no-lynch. Your welcome for waking up at five am on the weekend to make sure we didn't no lynch by the way.

[SirCakez]

Nooo, the reason I wasn't lynched is because my wagon couldn't find the last votes they needed.

This is a HUGE scumtell.

[Mirhawk]

It doesn't make sense for us to take credit for lynching a townie over another townie; again, your side of the argument is that we were trying to get you lynched yesterday. Our side of the argument is no, that's not the case. If your argument is that we were trying to get you lynched the next day, okay, that's different, but it should be immensely clear that our preference was FS and that the FS wagon was the reason your wagon died.

The only reason we're even talking about this is because you took exception to me saying you were indirectly pushing my wagon yesterday.

Everything else in this argument is just a window dressing to cover up the fact that you want to discredit that argument.

Which you're unable to do directly because the fact is that YOU WERE pushing my wagon while calling me town at the deadline yesterday.

That's why you're going to such absurd lengths to make this about something else instead of addressing my original question, which is WHY WERE YOU DOING THAT?

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

[Mirhawk]

Friendless Seniors: The Pied Piper, Flubbernugget, talah, Axelrod, Malakittens, davesaz, podoboq, itlepip, Mirhawk (9)

Actually look at this wagon. Mir hammered it, Axel was in it in a safe spot, another scumread for me (Flubber) lead it.

This might be an opinion difference, but I don't think a counterwagon counts unless scum are actively trying to push it. I'm pretty sure flubber wasn't, I don't think Axel was either (though I cant remember entirely), and I know I wasn't.

So if it was a counterwagon who was pushing it.

[Mirhawk]

Nooo, the reason I wasn't lynched is because my wagon couldn't find the last votes they needed.

This is a HUGE scumtell.

It's an observation, but feel free to tell everyone WHY it's scummy.

[Mirhawk]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

And you thought the perfect time to discuss them was to grill me right before the deadline and explain to me why all my reads were shitty and bad?

Gee thanks, with friends like you who needs enemies.

If you thought I was town then that was a bad play that showed pretty much no awareness for what was actually going on in the game. You should probably take it as a compliment that I'm assuming that you did it because your scum instead of assuming you were being dumb.

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

And you thought the perfect time to discuss them was to grill me right before the deadline and explain to me why all my reads were shitty and bad?

Gee thanks, with friends like you who needs enemies.

If you thought I was town then that was a bad play that showed pretty much no awareness for what was actually going on in the game. You should probably take it as a compliment that I'm assuming that you did it because your scum instead of assuming you were being dumb.

The reads that I were harshest with you was referring to your dramonic, Dwlee, FS, and our reads on us. My hostility in the dramonic read was because dramonic was pissing me off, while my harshness with the other reads were because they were my top scum reads and because I was pushing back on your read on us. I don't know what other timing you expected me to have; the only other option I had at that point was just ignoring your reads and protecting you until I derailed your wagon, but I don't believe in doing that; if someone is town, I shouldn't have to hold back commentary on their posting so they don't get lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

And you thought the perfect time to discuss them was to grill me right before the deadline and explain to me why all my reads were shitty and bad?

Gee thanks, with friends like you who needs enemies.

If you thought I was town then that was a bad play that showed pretty much no awareness for what was actually going on in the game. You should probably take it as a compliment that I'm assuming that you did it because your scum instead of assuming you were being dumb.

You also make it sound like I grilled the absolute shit out of you when that's absolutely false; I made, what, four posts towards your reads wall when I spent triple that eviscerating dram for being a dick and twenty times that pushing FS? How is talking to you about your reads near deadline and telling you why I disagreed with them an action that makes me dumb when I PUSHED THE FS WAGON OVER YOU AND GOT FS LYNCHED OVER YOU? If we didn't come in and offer FS as an alternative backed by someone who was very, very persistent in their FS read, what do you think would have happened? Do you think that an FS wagon would have just popped up? Do you think that your wagon just wouldn't have gotten enough votes? Or do you think that people would have compromised on your wagon to avoid a no lynch since there weren't any strong alternative candidates anyways?

[Mirhawk]

Yeah number of posts really has nothing to do with it, and feel free to keep claiming that 100% I'm only not dead because of you even though that's pretty much just horseshit.

I got some other snappy comebacks to this too but this has gone on long enough and I got other things to do this weekend. Besides I think we can safely conclude that neither of us are going to sway the other.

Lets just let everyone else decide who's more in the right on this.

[The Pied Piper]

Number of posts is not the meat of my point.

[Dwlee99]

lowkey don't even want to read this game until tpp is lynched

[dramonic]

I don't think "I PUSHED THE FS WAGON OVER YOU AND GOT FS LYNCHED OVER YOU?" is the same as screaming for a 1v1 you know you'll win.
But I mean, ymmv

[The Pied Piper]

You are claiming that I was trying to kill you yesterday. You are claiming that the way that I poked at your reads was completely unacceptable unless I was scum or stupid. I am pointing out that I did not "grill the shit out of you" and that I spent considerably more effort pushing through FS's lynch. You are claiming that your wagon fell apart because it couldn't get the votes while I am pointing out that the only reason it couldn't get the votes was because there was an alternative that was only there in part largely in part because of my effort, so your picture of us trying to indirectly nudge your wagon so that it would go through or your picture of us is wrong and your picture of your wagon not going through due to other people that were not us is additionally wrong.

[The Pied Piper]

I don't think "I PUSHED THE FS WAGON OVER YOU AND GOT FS LYNCHED OVER YOU?" is the same as screaming for a 1v1 you know you'll win.
But I mean, ymmv

Do you agree with Mirhawk's perspective that we were trying to nudge along his lynch when we attacked his reads?

[The Pied Piper]

Here are the posts I'm referring to, by the way:

Spoiler: responding to mirhawk vs us

To be honest, my flavor actually would imply that I'm a cop. But sadly I am not.

It seems pretty strange to me that scum!Mirhawk would be setting up the whole "my flavor doesn't align with my role" thing early and by that he meant "not a cop".

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

The reason why we didn't want to disclose why we were crumbing an innocent on tictac to Cakez is because explaining it outed both of them. The reason why people are complaining about us lying in the first place is because we said a "bunch of" PRs instead of "a couple PRs"; the motivation for doing so as scum is non-existent; the idea that people came up with is that we were crumbing to out PRs to make it less likely that people would want to lynch us or some dumb crap like that even though the difference in gain between saying a bunch of and a couple for scum is pretty much zero, which means either A) we're liars, B) our perception of "a bunch of" is different than yours, or C) we have another PR we are trying to avoid to out. The only thing that this magical exchange has proven to me is that certain people in the town either want everything or nothing; there's no use trying to explain this situation to everyone's satisfaction because no one actually gives a shit what I'm typing, and the only small benefit that could come out of our slot explaining further is being driven a little less crazy but that obviously isn't happening so there's no use in trying.

You say that our play is pretty "cut in dry" scum, and yet you've gone through no effort in explaining it. Can you explain why scum in our position would crumb the innocent on tictac Day 2 and then refuse to explain it? Can you explain why the motivation we would give for explaining it as scum was "out a bunch of PRs" when we could have pretty reasonably said that it would out two PRs as opposed to a bunch? You were pretending like we were a universal scumread with our backs against the wall throwing everything and the kitchen sink at everyone to avoid a lynch but WE WERE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY SCUMREAD. WE WERE NOT GETTING LYNCHED TODAY. The only reason there is even lynch pressure on us period is because of the claim situation that we got ourselves into if scum and had no motivation to get ourselves into if scum. People are lashing out and calling us "obvious scum" because of a situation that they don't understand and won't understand until everything's on the table, which isn't happening period.

Spoiler: attacking Mirhawk's townread on Seniors

Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

We must be remembering a pretty different Day 1 then because last time I checked, it was pretty difficult to classify Friendless Seniors as the "I don't give a shit" type from Day 1. What I do remember is hiplop refusing to do anything until beeboy left him alone, then I remember crappy attacks on Ranger, Amihan (for "faking too much" - remember when everyone thought Amihan's miller counterclaim looked pretty solidly town and hiplop went "nah guys she's faking too much"), shifting off Ranger to push an alternative tictac wagon even though they were very very confident on Ranger, and then nonsense nonsense nonsense. They are voting you because "they could be wrong" - this isn't why town people vote other people, this is how scum compromise on wagons they know will flip town so they can continue pretending that there's something behind the shit scumreads that they've been pushing and pushing and pushing - and for what reason? Why are Friendless Seniors pushing us again? Oh yeah, "pointless meta bullshit" - calls clumsy wagoning a scumtell from Plot based on Butterfly Mafia where Plot was uncharacteristically disengaged and frustrated and angry, calls us scum for SOFTING A GUILTY ON HIM TO GAIN SUPPORT which is a line of shit repulsive enough where even Dwlee, who has done nothing this game but single-mindedly push us, said "no, that doesn't make any sense", and has pushed us for the claim bullshit that everyone else has pushed.

Spoiler: defending Cakes from Mirhawk's scumread on him

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.

Your dislike of meta is your dislike of his playstyle; this has absolutely nothing to do with his alignment and is a dislike that is not game-related. He didn't spend "most of Day 1 with his thumb up his butt doing nothing"; at the time, I thought a lot of it didn't really make sense, but saying that he wasn't doing anything at all is pretty much completely wrong if you make the effort to read his posts. If you'd like to disagree with this, go right ahead and I'll start happily dumping quotes as long as you need me to. Today, he's been reiterating his townreads on us/FS and scumreads on you/Axel. This is not really different from what every single player this game day has been doing; it's been a lazy as fuck game day where the only thing that seems to happen is people keep reiterating shit they already said, so Cakez isn't exactly some shiny amazing scumread that everyone are idiots for missing for doing something that everyone else has been doing all day.

Spoiler: disagreeing with mirhawk that dramonic's posts are good

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Consistent, yes. Good? No. I'm also struggling to see where you're seeing substantial posts in his ISO; could you be hallucinating them? For fun, let's just take a glance at a substantial dramonic post:

*furious dryhumping*

In reference to Marquis voting a scumread. This is no different than what he's been doing every time someone votes one of dramonic's very consistent scumreads.

He's scum is what's up

"My scumread is scum". No different than anytime he mentions one of his scumreads, isn't that just remarkable???

I'm pretty sure I called out all three of your asses before you adressed me.

"My scumreads aren't OMGUS because I called you out first!" - Probably not false, definitely not substantial or "pretty good".

That is one shitty excuse to vote me mate. You're "not comfortable" voting someone else without review? That is such wishy-washy bull

"You're not comfortable voting anyone else but me? You must be scum!" - dramonic. Substantial? Good? No.

I'm not going to waver unless you provide a reason for me to, but every post you make just confirms my read further so...

"You are scum!"

Okay, I want everyone to take a moment to read that quote and tell me what sort of town tries to convince someone of a read by saying "But he attacked you, therefore he must be scum!"
So I guess the answer to the rest of that post would be that yeah, you're just a bad player

This is the best and most substantial thing dramonic has posted the entire game, but is unfortunately horrendously wrong and shows that he either doesn't know how newer players tend to approach the game or doesn't care.

TPP come on

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

And after I dryhumped you for a good fifteen minutes. SHAME man.

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

Spoiler: attacking mirhawk's townread on dwlee because there is precious little to like about dwlee's posting

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

"Connected with the goings-on of the rest of the town". What game are you reading and can I replace into that one and out of this one? What has Dwlee done other than tunnel us this entire game? How has he shown awareness with what's going on with the rest of the town when he barely shows awareness with what's going on with us?

Spoiler: picking apart Mirhawk's scumread on itlepip

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

Pip's first significant read was a scumread on tictac.
His first read's list had Axel as maybe town but maybe scum based on a specific tell, FS could be scum for ass backwards reads and was frustrating in general, didn't like you for your Ranger push, didn't like Podo for the 834 readslist, Sakura was ?, Tictac scum but improving, Skybird null. He had a theory that you and tictac were strongly connected. Attacked Podo in order to sheep dram (strong townread), read evolved to scumreading him for pushing a policy lynch. Started to read Podo as town (I think?), swapped to Axel. Switched to Skybird. Reread Skybird, thought she might be town, swapped to you. Reiterated case on Axel, continued pushing you.

Your characterization of Itle having you as "by far" his weakest read is either not reading or not understanding how fluid his scumreads were early game: he didn't have you as "the only one left" of the scumreads he could push; the only one that he got major pushback for was his Podo read. I don't even see where the Piper thing happened but I'd love for you to point it out to me.

Spoiler: saying that his reads are weak, lazy, and insubstantial but that he's town anyway

The rest of your reads are weak, lazy, or/and insubstantial. I do think that bringing up the miller situation that it took you approximately 100 pages to get out of was something that you were far more likely to do as town than as scum, and I think that your reads don't really line up how I'd expect them to if you were scum; don't expect FS to fall as flat null if they're a partner or if they're town, you hedge on people you can safely call town as scum and you attack people who aren't getting lynched and who have a louder voice and more cred than you do.