Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[BTD6_maker]

sorry I got in a car accident last night, hospital post, will be out later today sorry.

Holy shit dude, sorry about that. Get better soon.

Phone posting, but for now I am confused on why Ranger has spent all of her time bickering with M&M, while I am somehow "100% scum". Townie play would be to focus on trying to get me lynched.

@Ranger why aren't you doing more to get me lynched?

I don't know you well enough for you to care that much... why are you buddying me? I'm pushing for your lynch.

Weak-moderate Town: Alpaca,
Null-weak Town: Alexcellent, Kappy, Shotty
Null-weak scum: KAAG
Weak-moderate scum: Ranger, Music And Mail (even within a slot, Music seems scummier than Mail)
Moderate-strong scum: InnocentVillager

Intent on IV

He started off distancing Ranger whilst backing out of the wagon when it looked dangerous. Now he is defending Ranger and criticising the wagon that he was on himself. IV and Ranger seem a likely scumteam.

This probably gets explained later, but idk how you are scumreading Ranger and M+M together.

They are not bussing.

(So, what im saying is your reads are fake).

Just because I scumread both does not mean I think they are a scumteam. I thought that one of them is likely scum, but probably not both. Ranger has now dropped to nullish so now M&M (a.k.a. you) seem scummier. Your actual content itself is scumread by me, but not nearly as much as RC's.

Mhsmith, I am preparing evidence.

[mhsmith0]

@btd: I have a plane flight tomorrow, so sometime today would be appreciated.

[Town Mafioso]

@tm:

1) why was Alex "scummy as hell"? I didn't understand your "he's so towny he's scum" bit, including what in particular he'd said to create that reaction. And what from touka / titus recovered it?
2) which posts are you referencing as making ranger looking good? First of the game? First while fighting w m&m? Something else? And do you have an opinion of her other than those early posts?

I know you want an extremely detailed explanation on how someone can be so towny they are scum, but I dont do that. Mafia, in nature, are usually either silent because they doubt their skills or fluff posters that make them seem useful. Sometimes however, some look townie who are scumhunting the wrong people, intentionally for not. His posts give the vibe of fake scumhunting. In contrast, his replacement has been better imo. Id put that slot next to drmy and Ranger as "people i want to assume are town for now."

As for number 2, I consider RC to be a fantastic Townhunter, but a poor scumhunter. Obviously Ranger is a character of importance (ie: someone who is known) hence his enterance and such. I highly doubt both arsos would wagon M+M like that, so Ill take the genuine sounding Ranger to be an actual scumhunter and one of BTD/Kickass to be scum. Thats not an all-town wagon.

Tell me something. Lets say we lynch BTD and he flips town. Would you push a wagon on Alpaca?

[BTD6_maker]

@btd: I have a plane flight tomorrow, so sometime today would be appreciated.

I have a plane flight tomorrow. I may be V/LA.

[mhsmith0]

@tm:
1) I don't need "extremely detailed explanations", but I do need info on how you're reaching that conclusion. If you have a post or two in mind that gives you a "fake scum hunting" vibe, it'd be helpful to look at.

2) what about ranger is genuine sounding? Fypov, ranger spent d1 "scum hunting the wrong people, intentionally or not", since iv flipped green and you know your alignment. I personally found Rangers cases on both slots reachy and oversold compared to the merits, so if there's reason to think that was actually town!ranger, I'd really want to know why.

[Town Mafioso]

I don't like 110.

I'm disappointed none of you agree really agree with my Kappy read. Oh well, I guess we all have different tells. I'm still going to stick with my gut and call him town.

Why do you want everyone to agree with you and town read Kappy so badly?

I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M. Honestly both of you look a little scummy, but Ranger more so than M&M. I would be surprised if neither of you were scum.

I don't really like this. It reads as though you're dismissing the possibility of it being TvT, therefore there has to be one that's scum, and you're leaving it open to both of them being scum. And you're not really committing to a read of one being scummier than the other.

VOTE: Ranger

Bc top scumread atm.

Now that I look at it again, M&M's later reaction posts just look like annoyed confibiasing townie omgusing on Ranger. But I'll look at this again tomorrow, since maybe I'm the one confbiasing my stance on the Ranger vs. M&M debate. More on this later.

Even here, it's like you're saying Ranger's scummier, but you're giving yourself room to backtrack if required.

Town: Alexcellent
Null-Town: Kappy; Alpaca
Null: BTD6; drmyshotty; Kickass; Music & Mail
Scum: Ranger; InnocentVillager

IV is in the scum pile largely for 110, the apparent strong need for everyone to agree with his reads and the non-committal Ranger vote. Also didn't get a good vibe from the way he was reacting to shotty.
Ranger's strangely confident reads list doesn't strike me as necessarily scummy itself - just weird. I don't know where the reads come from. But I do dislike her more recent posts and the sudden jump from M&M to IV is pretty jarring and unexpected, considering how strong her scum read was on M&M. Also, she appears to be dodging Alpaca's question (116). Gonna do this.

VOTE: Ranger

That's L-1!!

I find 134 reachy in a lot of ways and I strongly disagree with some of the things you're saying. In particular, I don't think they would lolhammer as town and I certainly wouldn't scum read them for not hammering an RVS wagon. However, I kind of don't see your analysis coming from scum.

I don't think I've played with Postie before. And I only really have experience with RC's town game, although:

If you're town here you deserve to be lynched.

And this is an attitude you would

never

take as town.

Ever.

ESPECIALLY not to me, of all people.

I feel like I

could

see that coming from town RC, so I'm not so sure that I'd buy them as scum. However I'm feeling better about you.

And yeah I forgot about Sharing is Caring. Although I think you replaced in well after I died.

If you're 100% scum, would you agree to get lynched tomorrow when you're wrong about me?

Of course you would. After all, there is no chance involved in 100% scum, right?

Please lynch Ranger immediately on D2 if I happen to get lynched kthxbai

You realise if you're lynched as town, you're not actually out of the game, you just lose your vote, right? This doesn't feel like it's coming from a tree's perspective.

Post 124: The fact that IV was scum because he wanted people to believe his reads is how I as scum would destroy a noob townie (which IV was). There was nothing scummy about it. Also calls IV scum for suggestion TvS, which just feels fabricated (ps: thats not scummy either).

Post 126: Instead of leading an IV wagon, goes for the easier Ranger wagon because it had steam. Thats not a good town move etheir, ESPECIALLY when he switches to IV a few posts later

Post 146 just screams something mafia would say to fake towntells. Mafia are more into the setup than townies.

Alex just seemed like going for the obvious lynch, and thats why Im glad hes not here otherwise I would have burried him today.

[mhsmith0]

And when ranger calls iv scum for the same tvs thing (see 117-120), that's non suspicious because _______? I mean, I can get behind the idea that Alex deserves extra wolf points there for sheeping the argument, but I still find ranger suspicious for advancing the case on those grounds, and per your stated Alex reasoning, I'm surprised you seem to disagree.

I do agree on your point on the wagon hopping. I tried to get touka to speak to that, don't think I got much useful there.

The last point is also poor on Alex, though there have been plenty of players showing that passive attitude towards the consequences of mislynches, and I'm not sure how he especially stood out in that regard.

[Town Mafioso]

@tm:

2) what about ranger is genuine sounding? Fypov, ranger spent d1 "scum hunting the wrong people, intentionally or not", since iv flipped green and you know your alignment. I personally found Rangers cases on both slots reachy and oversold compared to the merits, so if there's reason to think that was actually town!ranger, I'd really want to know why.

She was using Meta as a case for RC, which isnt the best of arguements, especially against RC. However, I can see the reason as her actually believing that RC was arso. She is wrong, her reads are off (especially on Alex), but I can see the townie in her.

The only way I could see Rangerscum at this point was if IV was arso. I just wish she would have focused on BTD and Kickass as soon as they voted. #Tunnelvision.

P-Edit: because again, Ranger screams wrongtownie while Alex was being scummy with his convictions. Its very hard to explain, but I can see why IV was lynched. Im not blaming the wagon completly, but theres a different feel in their words.

[Town Mafioso]

Ranger would you care to elaborate on why you think I'm town for my RVS vote in post 28.

I could easily!
I'm choosing not to. It's a non-issue. Unless you're at risk of being lynched, it's simply not something I need to spend my time on.

Ranger, your case is horribly reachy and flimsy. Not to mention that innocentvillager looks pretty obvtown to me.

Oh really?

Explain your reads on innocentvillager to me please.

I've only played with town-you twice, but both times I could actually understand where your reads were coming from. This, on the other hand... I just... I have several issues with this readslist.

^This implies you held severe issue with innocentvillager, in the middle of my list.

If you're town here you deserve to be lynched.

And this is an attitude you would

never

take as town.

Ever.

ESPECIALLY not to me, of all people.

These are some pretty strong reads based on little content. Your top town reads (including me) really don't have a lot of content to get a read from.

Welcome to a Ranger game.

This is something that, frankly, I thought I wouldn't have to explain anymore aside from the occasional newbie-in-an-open. But to be as explicit as possible: I am

Ranger

. I come from a site which specializes in reading the RVS. It's what we do. I maintain this habit on here. So, yes. Your little content? Is plenty for me.

I don't understand your scum read on Music and Mail. Can you go a bit more into detail as to why they are scum?

Sure! Separate post though; it'll have to wait until after I've caught up.

Again, this seems like metahunting townie. I dont know their history, but this is something that usually leans townie. Wrong judgement, but townie.

[Town Mafioso]

I forgot to mention it, but Ranger 134 enforces my point about him genuinly feeling that Im scum.

Ranger would you care to elaborate on why you think I'm town for my RVS vote in post 28.

I could easily!
I'm choosing not to. It's a non-issue. Unless you're at risk of being lynched, it's simply not something I need to spend my time on.

Ranger, your case is horribly reachy and flimsy. Not to mention that innocentvillager looks pretty obvtown to me.

Oh really?

Explain your reads on innocentvillager to me please.

I've only played with town-you twice, but both times I could actually understand where your reads were coming from. This, on the other hand... I just... I have several issues with this readslist.

^This implies you held severe issue with innocentvillager, in the middle of my list.

If you're town here you deserve to be lynched.

And this is an attitude you would

never

take as town.

Ever.

ESPECIALLY not to me, of all people.

These are some pretty strong reads based on little content. Your top town reads (including me) really don't have a lot of content to get a read from.

Welcome to a Ranger game.

This is something that, frankly, I thought I wouldn't have to explain anymore aside from the occasional newbie-in-an-open. But to be as explicit as possible: I am

Ranger

. I come from a site which specializes in reading the RVS. It's what we do. I maintain this habit on here. So, yes. Your little content? Is plenty for me.

I don't understand your scum read on Music and Mail. Can you go a bit more into detail as to why they are scum?

Sure! Separate post though; it'll have to wait until after I've caught up.

I am not sure what to think about the Ranger vs M&M. Honestly both of you look a little scummy, but Ranger more so than M&M. I would be surprised if neither of you were scum.

Change of plans.

VOTE: innocentvillager.

This looks like RVS.

It clearly was. And?

This is the post in question, and had IV flipped scum, this would have been a bus.

[mhsmith0]

Do you think the IV wagon was righteous? IMO it had a pretty dirty feel to it, from Rangers oversold case to btd's crap hammer to IIRC questionable votes from the other three. I also read iv as very likely town (part of my town read on your slot on m&m is because of how many things they'd said that agreed w my read on the game state), and feel like town!ranger especially should have known better than to scum read him at all, much less than with a ridiculously high degree of confidence.

[Town Mafioso]

I can see how and why you would think that, but I could have been persuaded to vote IV.

It looks frustrated town now, but i see some noobscum in him and thats why I think he was lynched.

I dont know the first thing about ranger, but overconfidence and being wrong arent scumtells,

[drmyshottyizsik]

smith sadly I think the real problem is not that it was a dirty lynch, but kind a lazy one.

[mhsmith0]

smith sadly I think the real problem is not that it was a dirty lynch, but kind a lazy one.

which again would, I think, get to "who here should have known better?"

I also think that IV looked like a player putting real effort into engaging w the board and trying to game solve, and then a bit of a lazy/careless mis speak (the tvs thing) got twisted into some kind of scum slip.

I also suspect that Rangers hop onto IV was more motivated by "I'm in some danger and I'm not winning my fight w m&m" than it was a true read of IV. I think town!ranger makes more of an effort to get m&m lynched in that spot rather than wandering off onto IV for what read to me as pretty unconvincing reasons.

Not to mention the whole "yes you can lynch me for being wrong on IV" bit that suddenly turned into an OMGUS on me right as soon as there was an active and non lazy push on her (I.e. A push that might actually result in a lynch of her spot given that an actual case was being made and pushed). Like, normally I'd think the town response would be to be suspicious of anyone more or less just going along w the idea of a ranger lynch, as opposed to being suspicious of someone who votes her for an actual alignment read reason. The whole thing reads as manipulative to me, and I don't see the town reason for such manipulation.

Now, I'll admit I don't have all that much meta w her, but between her reputation as a good scum hunter and her (IMO) both incorrect and sketchy push on m&m/IV on day 1, and her incorrect and OMGUS-y push on me day two, at some point I feel pretty comfortable thinking that this probably just isn't town!ranger.

[Titus]

It could also be scum to lazy to read the game, but you're right we should chalk it up to NAI for now.

Yeah, that dog don't hunt.

[Titus]

smith sadly I think the real problem is not that it was a dirty lynch, but kind a lazy one.

which again would, I think, get to "who here should have known better?"

I also think that IV looked like a player putting real effort into engaging w the board and trying to game solve, and then a bit of a lazy/careless mis speak (the tvs thing) got twisted into some kind of scum slip.

I also suspect that Rangers hop onto IV was more motivated by "I'm in some danger and I'm not winning my fight w m&m" than it was a true read of IV. I think town!ranger makes more of an effort to get m&m lynched in that spot rather than wandering off onto IV for what read to me as pretty unconvincing reasons.

Not to mention the whole "yes you can lynch me for being wrong on IV" bit that suddenly turned into an OMGUS on me right as soon as there was an active and non lazy push on her (I.e. A push that might actually result in a lynch of her spot given that an actual case was being made and pushed). Like, normally I'd think the town response would be to be suspicious of anyone more or less just going along w the idea of a ranger lynch, as opposed to being suspicious of someone who votes her for an actual alignment read reason. The whole thing reads as manipulative to me, and I don't see the town reason for such manipulation.

Now, I'll admit I don't have all that much meta w her, but between her reputation as a good scum hunter and her (IMO) both incorrect and sketchy push on m&m/IV on day 1, and her incorrect and OMGUS-y push on me day two, at some point I feel pretty comfortable thinking that this probably just isn't town!ranger.

I can see that by ranger

[mhsmith0]

Have you seen that from town!ranger before? Can you point me to a game that's a reasonably comparable example of this from her?

[Titus]

I was referring to this bring scum ranger lol open 627

[BTD6_maker]

Mod, I will be V/LA until the 4th.

[mhsmith0]

Born to push you around
Better just stay down
You pull away, he hits the flesh
You hit the ground
Mouths so full of lies
Tend to black your eyes
Just keep them closed
Keep praying, just keep waiting
Waiting for the one
The

day

case that never comes
When you stand up and feel the warmth
But the sunshine never comes, no
No, the sunshine never comes

[mhsmith0]

On a different note...

@alpaca: any thoughts on the game state other than btd's continued inability to actually explain why he says he thinks I'm an arsonist? Other than a quick defense note, you haven't talked about anything else for the past week.

[innocentvillager]

I am further convinced that the Alexcellent slot is probably scum.

Calling me noobtown hurts. Right here in the soul.

[mhsmith0]

Do you mean TM or Titus? TM took over m&m slot, Titus took over Alex/touka slot.

[innocentvillager]

Do you mean TM or Titus? TM took over m&m slot, Titus took over Alex/touka slot.

Then TM/M&M is probably town, Titus is scum. Alexcellent just feels like pure scumplay at this point (although maybe this is confbias), and Touka wasn't much townier. Titus hasn't really done anything yet.

I don't think Shotty should ever get lynched.

Kap/Ranger are pretty town leaning.

So I really think scumteam is either Alex/BTD, Alex/Alpaca, or Alex/Smith in decreasing probability.

[innocentvillager]

TM I know this isn't game-related but what was noobtown/scum about my play.

I don't claim to be terribly great at this game but I have been playing it for a while and I don't think my play warrants being called nooby play. Maybe it's because I was rusty? My townhunting tends to be pretty good, my scumhunting generally not quite so much unless I'm really set on someone.