Mini 1802: Paint Mafia Sequel - Game Over!

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: lala

Sorry, I thought my vote was here already.

[pieguyn]

Yeah, that's fair enough, but it was less about appearances and more about "if one scum was avoiding the wagon and pushing elsewhere, why did it still go through?"

OK, I actually flat-out don't believe you can think something like this and not realize that, duh, the wagon went through because I was strong-arming it for practically the entire fucking game day. you're basically saying that "omg, a scum lynch went through with scum off the wagon" and that this means for ... some magical reason ... that the only reason I was able to push the lynch through was because I must be scum bussing, and you're not attempting to consider any alternate scenario to this, e.g. that another person on the wagon was scum or that scum basically just voted Aris by default after I made it obvious he'd be the lynch today. this is horrendous logic at best and outright disingenuous at worst.

[pieguyn]

how much mafia experience do you have, S_S?

basically everything you're saying here are things that are so nonsensical I would treat it as a hard scum tell, except for someone who is complete shit at the game and has no idea how logic works. you don't strike me as that type of player at all, even though you're fairly new.

[Cheetory6]

VoteCount 2.03

"a dank maymay"

=====================

lalaladucks [4]

- pieguyn, Zulfy, Katsuki, Bellaphant

itlepip [2]

- Dwlee99, lalaladucks

Bellaphant [1]

- RadiantCowbells

Zulfy [2]

- Nahdia, Ranger

Not Voting [3]:

itlepip, Something_Smart, TehBrawlGuy

=====================

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
You have (expired on 2016-07-19 20:00:00) to do so.

[Something_Smart]

how much mafia experience do you have, S_S?

basically everything you're saying here are things that are so nonsensical I would treat it as a hard scum tell, except for someone who is complete shit at the game and has no idea how logic works. you don't strike me as that type of player at all, even though you're fairly new.

I definitely see where you're coming from. I have 19 completed games, though my play is very inconsistent; sometimes my reads are good, and sometimes I just get my head completely up my rear end. (That happens more frequently than usual upon replacing in.)

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

I don't know whether or not you would bus Ari in that scenario. I don't think "it's a needless risk" is a valid argument why not to. This is the crux of WIFOM: intentionally making it harder for yourself, just because people wouldn't expect you to make it harder for yourself. However, I don't want to go into it further, because you've made your point clear, and I simply don't agree with it.

One thing that I do want to address is your allegation to have "strong-armed" the Ari lynch. Looking through your ISO I can't see much more than you saying that Ari is scum and that he hadn't done anything towny, without much elaboration. And it doesn't seem to me that you pushed him the whole day either; AFAICT, you didn't scumread him at all until 528. So am I missing something, or are you playing up your involvement in that lynch?

[pieguyn]

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

no, I find your arguments ridiculous because I find your thought process behind it to make no sense. I think there's about a 0% chance of me being lynched here, so it is not my goal to convince you; it is my goal to scum hunt your thought process.

976 in particular is a completely separate issue from whether what I did D1 looks like a bus: your angle there basically amounted to "there's scum off the wagon, and it's impossible for a town player to push through a scum wagon with scum off the wagon, so it must have been a bus", which... where the fuck did you even get this from? it makes no sense and I'm questioning you on it because it makes no sense. it reads more like you're trying to spin this narrative about "omg it must have been a bus" in order to make the reads you want to push more credible, rather than looking at how it went down and coming to any sort of natural conclusion.

as for the thing about pushing Aris, I don't really think you could be reading objectively and come to that conclusion: I literally told you a few posts ago I was scum reading Aris since before 528 (which you seem to be ignoring), after I voted him I called multiple times for people to vote him with me, when people tried to wagon Katsuki at the deadline I shut that down before it got anywhere, and when he came back and started posting again I pointed out why I took issue with his posts. it is also disingenuous that you would claim that I "didn't do that much" to push Aris when, duh, he was doing jack shit most of the game... which of his nonexistent posts, exactly, were you expecting me to attack? when he did make posts, I did break them down and criticize them. apart from that, calling for people to explain town reads on someone is an excellent way to push a lynch and it's baffling that you don't seem to realize this is what I was doing.

[pieguyn]

I don't know whether or not you would bus Ari in that scenario. I don't think "it's a needless risk" is a valid argument why not to. This is the crux of WIFOM: intentionally making it harder for yourself, just because people wouldn't expect you to make it harder for yourself. However, I don't want to go into it further, because you've made your point clear, and I simply don't agree with it.

if you're one for self-meta, my aversion to bussing unless I feel it's necessary is well documented throughout all of my scum games since 2015. I think it's outright stupid scum play to bus unless you have something to gain from it, and I mean more than just "lel town cred" because as I tried to tell you come D5 or so people aren't going to give a shit that you lynched scum all the way back on D1; I mean an actual positional advantage in the game.

[pieguyn]

also also, if you don't think I "strong-armed" the lynch: who led the Aris lynch if it wasn't me?

I seriously have 0 idea how you can read how that game day went and come to that conclusion. I can see thinking I wasn't 100% of it (which it's very rare for anyone to _actually_ be 100% of any lynch), but if you don't think I was at the least among the people who led it, who did?

[Something_Smart]

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

no, I find your arguments ridiculous because I find your thought process behind it to make no sense. I think there's about a 0% chance of me being lynched here, so it is not my goal to convince you; it is my goal to scum hunt your thought process.

976 in particular is a completely separate issue from whether what I did D1 looks like a bus: your angle there basically amounted to "there's scum off the wagon, and it's impossible for a town player to push through a scum wagon with scum off the wagon, so it must have been a bus", which... where the fuck did you even get this from? it makes no sense and I'm questioning you on it because it makes no sense. it reads more like you're trying to spin this narrative about "omg it must have been a bus" in order to make the reads you want to push more credible, rather than looking at how it went down and coming to any sort of natural conclusion.

Point taken. I heard somebody say that the Ari wagon probably had at least one scum on it, and I was like, "seems legit", but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, so if I was treating it as such, I won't anymore.

as for the thing about pushing Aris, I don't really think you could be reading objectively and come to that conclusion: I literally told you a few posts ago I was scum reading Aris since before 528 (which you seem to be ignoring), after I voted him I called multiple times for people to vote him with me, when people tried to wagon Katsuki at the deadline I shut that down before it got anywhere, and when he came back and started posting again I pointed out why I took issue with his posts. it is also disingenuous that you would claim that I "didn't do that much" to push Aris when, duh, he was doing jack shit most of the game... which of his nonexistent posts, exactly, were you expecting me to attack? when he did make posts, I did break them down and criticize them. apart from that, calling for people to explain town reads on someone is an excellent way to push a lynch and it's baffling that you don't seem to realize this is what I was doing.

I think we're both guilty of narrow-mindedness here. I read your ISO, and I didn't see, relative to what I am used to from other games, a strong push. It's definitely true that you asked people why they were not scumreading him, but you didn't do much to try to change those reads beyond saying "just look at his content."
Now I will concede that this is a special case because Ari had little content to address, but it seemed as though once the wagon began support for it sprang up from everywhere.
The lynch would probably not have gone through without you. I'll take your word for that since I don't care to go back and analyze things that thoroughly. But you should be able to at least see where I'm coming from here.

(P.S. I use this style of scumhunting relatively frequently; I make some very strongly stated points and then PbPA-war my way to a compromise. It usually helps me get a read that I feel more confident on than my one before.)

I don't know whether or not you would bus Ari in that scenario. I don't think "it's a needless risk" is a valid argument why not to. This is the crux of WIFOM: intentionally making it harder for yourself, just because people wouldn't expect you to make it harder for yourself. However, I don't want to go into it further, because you've made your point clear, and I simply don't agree with it.

if you're one for self-meta, my aversion to bussing unless I feel it's necessary is well documented throughout all of my scum games since 2015. I think it's outright stupid scum play to bus unless you have something to gain from it, and I mean more than just "lel town cred" because as I tried to tell you come D5 or so people aren't going to give a shit that you lynched scum all the way back on D1; I mean an actual positional advantage in the game.

That's good to know. One of my flaws as scum is that I have trouble fabricating wrong reads believably, so I tend to WK and bus as much as the situation will allow. I definitely understand that you're smart enough and good enough to produce good results without bussing.

also also, if you don't think I "strong-armed" the lynch: who led the Aris lynch if it wasn't me?

I seriously have 0 idea how you can read how that game day went and come to that conclusion. I can see thinking I wasn't 100% of it (which it's very rare for anyone to _actually_ be 100% of any lynch), but if you don't think I was at the least among the people who led it, who did?

You'll have to keep in mind that, at least for me, reading 38 pages that I've never seen before without taking notes (I don't have the time nor the multitasking ability to take useful notes) is not going to give me a clear enough understanding of the game to be able to answer this. I do think you were one of the leaders of the Ari lynch. But "strong-armed" to me implies that you made forceful and strong arguments and absolutely refused to consider anything else.

[pieguyn]

But "strong-armed" to me implies that you made forceful and strong arguments and absolutely refused to consider anything else.

I strong-armed it about as much as I needed to to secure the lynch (there's no point in yelling at people really hard over it when most seem to already be receptive to the idea of him being scum), and I made about as forceful of an argument I could reasonably be sure of given how nonexistent he was. I can pretty safely say that I wouldn't have been willing to go anywhere else at that point; it probably just didn't feel that way because Katsuki was the only viable alternative, and thus the only alternative I really needed to shut down.

I'm actually a lot more OK with that response. I'll wait for you to finish elaborating on the rest of your reads.

[Nahdia]

sure is a lot of words im not going to read itt

[Dwlee99]

sure is a lot of words im not going to read itt

Me
Pie am I voting lala

[pieguyn]

Me
Pie am I voting lala

you're not right now.

you will, right?

/seductive smile

[Nahdia]

carefull pie, dwlee is a minor.

[pieguyn]

carefull pie, dwlee is a minor.

oh come on, I'm sure he'd enjoy some attention from an older girl. it's not like I'm going to *do* anything.

[Ranger]

I'm taking a break from mafia.
Swear to god, if ONE little time of things going wrong causes me to be unable to keep up with my games

this badly

, this consistently, I'm clearly in no shape to play.
I need to sleep.
This is not a game you can lynch me in, so I can't give you permission to try, but I've had a stressful day and I could barely get this much done.

[lalaladucks]

sure is a lot of words im not going to read itt

Me
Pie am I voting lala

if i managed to put a lure module on a stop near you would you not vote me?

[TehBrawlGuy]

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

no, I find your arguments ridiculous because I find your thought process behind it to make no sense. I think there's about a 0% chance of me being lynched here, so it is not my goal to convince you; it is my goal to scum hunt your thought process.

976 in particular is a completely separate issue from whether what I did D1 looks like a bus: your angle there basically amounted to "there's scum off the wagon, and it's impossible for a town player to push through a scum wagon with scum off the wagon, so it must have been a bus", which... where the fuck did you even get this from? it makes no sense and I'm questioning you on it because it makes no sense. it reads more like you're trying to spin this narrative about "omg it must have been a bus" in order to make the reads you want to push more credible, rather than looking at how it went down and coming to any sort of natural conclusion.

Point taken. I heard somebody say that the Ari wagon probably had at least one scum on it, and I was like, "seems legit", but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, so if I was treating it as such, I won't anymore.

I said this. I stand by it, but if you're thinking that there was at least one scum on it, why on Earth would it be Pie?

@whoever asked me about dwlee: no, the townread is gone - I still think beeboy's post looks like a towntell, but it could've been fabricated and I'm not okay with letting a useless slot coast on a D1 possible towntell

SPEAKING OF SLOTS WE SHOULDN'T LET COAST VOTE: lala

at no point will we be able to read this slot
at no point will this slot get replaced (probably)

it's a PL worthy slot that I remember thinking was scummy but forgetting why, so i'm fine with this lynch

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: TheBrawlGuy

Congratulations on literally the worst post I've seen this game.

[Dwlee99]

Me
Pie am I voting lala

you're not right now.

you will, right?

/seductive smile

carefull pie, dwlee is a minor.

carefull pie, dwlee is a minor.

oh come on, I'm sure he'd enjoy some attention from an older girl. it's not like I'm going to *do* anything.

Im scared
rc it may be my staying up past 5 am last night but why is the lost bad

[Something_Smart]

Ok, brief explanation of my reads.

Town

RadiantCowbells:

Ranger: I absolutely can't see Ranger pulling a gambit like this as scum.

Nahdia: I don't know if scum would flip Nahdia blue? I feel like, unless her partner were someone like pieguyn (and I seriously doubt that), they couldn't have expected the Nahdia flip. And I mean her tone is very towny, although I have seen her pull that off as scum. (I do feel like it's different. Also, Ranger was in that game and I don't see Ranger making the same mistake twice.)

Dwlee99: Beeboy was really towny, and Dwlee has been coming up with reads and not really pushing them (showing that he's trying to solve the game more than manipulate it), and he seems to have the same air of not knowing what's going on as he did the last time I played with him (when he was town).

itlepip: Itlepip gives me a hard time because half the time there's no telling what goes on in his head. Pretty sure the way he's being aggressive and jumping on small things is characteristic of his towngame though.

Null/town

lalaladucks: I agree with their reads, I disagree with pieguyn's case, and I understand the whole "reasonable/unreasonable" thing and it sounds like something scum wouldn't admit to. I feel like a lot of the things they are being attacked for are things that could come from a town mindset. Someone with meta of them would be really helpful though.

Null

Bellaphant: Bella's like a Silent, I read her posts and I don't remember anything about them when I look away. I just feel like most of the things she says could be easily said by either alignment.

Null/scum

Katsuki: I got gut pings from TSQ. Katsuki's reads are pretty weird and they're not doing much... this read could easily change, it's half a real read and half a placeholder.

pieguyn: Yeah ok so bussing Ari would have been a stupid move. I still have my eye on you, though this could just be one of my terrible reads... I just feel like she's saying a lot but none of it is really that profound, and I don't like the way she pushed Nina/TSQ as TvT. I also didn't like the way she suggested Ranger could be a TPR, it sounded a little like fishing.

Scum

Zulfy: I said I'd get quotes for this one, so:
I didn't like how UTL just kinda sniped at everyone without really explaining stuff (103, 118, 290, 292, 296, 522).
Zulfy just had a bunch of ugly posts. 581 was unnecessary. 607 is an accusation based on a nonexistent tell. 615 is taking Nahdia's post out of context to paint it as a scumslip; pieguyn had asked her if she had a townread on lala the post before, so making that error was understandable. 619 is bad and looks like an excuse to jump off Ari when he realized he was voting to lynch. 620 doesn't make any sense either. 663 is such a bad reaction to the fake gladiate. Then he kinda settles into not doing much for a while, and 941 only makes sense from a town perspective if said townie has done and said certain things, and hasn't.

Intentionally omitted

TehBrawlGuy: I want a little more elaboration on the beeboy thing before I place this read.

@TBG:

You didn't say beeboy towntold. You said he townslipped. Either something is a townslip or it isn't. If it is, then Dwlee is 100% town. Do you still think it was a townslip? If not, what changed your mind?

[Katsuki]

VOTE: TheBrawlGuy

Congratulations on literally the worst post I've seen this game.

I think his post is solid. What would your read on TBG be if duckylala flips scum?

[Nahdia]

S_S is town

now let's lynch Zulfy

[Bellaphant]

s_s could be town, but I don't get a few of their reads: @ss, talk to me about lala and dwlee?

Also, what do you need from me?

[RadiantCowbells]

If I make a good case on TBG will anyone be willing to follow me