Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ast – #32 nervous in the service? #63 seems like he knows that being passive is a bad thing and trying to cover for it instead of not being passive.

dreal – #104 is the best post in the game, 10/10 will never vote for this guy now.

ST – #36 is bad post, hurriedly protecting his vote with RVS. #60 is a good post, authentically mediocre vote reasons, truth about dreamliner’s posting habits. #119 considers options about #104 but mostly is paranoid as hell, good kind of nervous.

copper – #47, SE isn’t a teaching role, Accountant should be playing mafia instead of lecturer. #86 if you have to caveat a conditional possible tell maybe it’s not the best thing to explore.

Accountant – #39/#41 are pointless and defensive in a bad way.

@GM: Oh man, I confused you with farside. Never mind.

The cruelest thing anyone has ever said.

#69 misses that exact thing happening in #63. #106 dear lord.

VOTE: Accountant

#179 and it was such a good vote too.

UNVOTE:

Jae – #29 is a good vote. #120 but apparently everything is NAI to this guy (thanks for the heads up on this term, gm). #131 Hanlan’s Razor.

gm – #53 is good kinja.

Also, talking about theory isn't really alignment-indicative, which is why most of us are referring to it as useless.

I think talking about theory from experienced players beyond the minimum is a scumtell. When I was scum back in the day I’d talk about theory to cover my lack of activity on the scumhunting front.

~~~

Town: ME, gm, dreal, ST

Actually has a good post: Accountant

Now actually has posts: GL

Good votes: Jae, copper, Ast

~~

Checking votes placed.

VOTE: Jae

[copper223]

Okay guys, scum is DDD and GL, we can wrap this up.

[goodmorning]

Vote: copper

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper

You should know better than this.

drealmerz seems to have gone MIA, which is a shame, because I want to hear his thoughts on GL and DDD.

[copper223]

@Accountant
What does that post even mean, do you know better?

[Accountant]

Not explaining your reads. I asked for one earlier and you deliberately ignored me. It also gives strength to the earlier accusation that you're just surfing along doing your own thing without trying to legitimately advance the game or your reads.

[copper223]

That's pretty insulting and pretty silly. I will address your concern in the near future.

[Accountant]

It's insulting and silly to declare that you know who the scumteam is on page 9 without any explanation or obvious sign given.

[copper223]

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

Because I have a bunch of town reads and you aren't one of them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: copper

[copper223]

@GL
1. Why does scum Jae

want to

make a case on town IC GM in their first (RVS) post?

2. Why do you ignore GM's position on Jae in 92, i.e. why are you selectively scum hunting? For the rest of you, GM said she would expect a different behavior from town Jae and not finding it she thinks that entrance is remarkable (later implying to Accountant that it is in a scummy way), that according to GL's case on Jae is scummy, but ignored in this instance.

3. Since when is making massive assumptions a scum-tell? Are you more likely to make reasonably sounding posts when you are the informed minority or the uninformed majority?

4. When was Jae supposed to go after Asty given Asty is not posting and will more likely than not be replaced?

5. I was the first to call Accountant vs Dreal a TvT, why do you say I'm surfing the arguments (when I interfered in both) especially if you agree with me in one instance?

6. What is the scum motivation for Stapler to town-read Drealmer but point out that he is not helping? How is Stapler different in his game advancement compared to Asty?

@Accountant
I was going to try to reaction test the slots anyway cause being replacements they are more likely to be scum (let's not start on this GM) anyway and it was worth a shot, but I disagree (and not in the good way where we are just seeing things differently but both have reasonable povs) with al lot of GL's reads and most of the logic behind them.

DDD's summary is also quite bad, not in the least because he happens to arrive to an almost carbon copy (with the little accountant game in the mix) list of the way GL is reading the game but they both mutually ignore each other.

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104 (or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104), town-reading GM again without much substance and ending up with a scum-read on Jae when his last point admonishes what can only be town Jae not to assume malevolence when misunderstanding suffices.

I would have liked to get a reaction out of Jae as well but since you two are chomping at the bit here's "my made up, silly and insulting" play.

[copper223]

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

Because I have a bunch of town reads and you aren't one of them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: copper

In your case it's more likely cause you drew scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD's summary is also quite bad, not in the least because he happens to arrive to an almost carbon copy (with the little accountant game in the mix) list of the way GL is reading the game but they both mutually ignore each other.

In your experience do scum usually try to behave identically?

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104 (or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104), town-reading GM again without much substance and ending up with a scum-read on Jae when his last point admonishes what can only be town Jae not to assume malevolence when misunderstanding suffices.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

And my final point on Jae in no way assumes Jae-town; Jae claimed malice from GM when incompetence would've equally explained things. I didn't attempt to explain if Jae's mistake in argumentation came from malice or incompetence but given the state of my other reads I find malice more likely.

[copper223]

In your experience do scum usually try to behave identically?

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't (the likely-hood increases if they feel threatened and my post before your catch-up was designed to do just that), what scum do a lot is ignore each other when they should be town-reading or scum-reading their opposite number based on their stances, in this case you should at the very least town-lean on each other for seeing the game the same way but nope, not a peep about GL's case on Jae.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

Absurd (in a bad way) is mentioning irrelevant or contradictory evidence about the reads you are giving while doing so, if you had given no reason whatsoever for reading said players I would have asked you first why you thought what you thought, the fact you are mentioning the wrong things (like the Banana post or addressing Jae as if he were misguided town) are the problem.

What leads you to believe that Jae would be aware of hanlan's razor and choose to interpret GM's post in a scummy fashion to continue his scumread of her?

[JaeReed]

Hello all, I am your lovely newbie. I am expected to make you bash your head on the keyboard, particularly in the context of the results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your questions with dubious, imprecise answers making me look incredibly guilty although i'm only a just a terrified, lost newcomer. (copyright goodmorning)

I'm trying to argue that you should have poked a little bit at it. Specifically "results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths." and "dubious, impresice answers making me look incredibly guilty" or hell even a bit more of a push over the "copyright goodmorning" bit rather than the stresses you went through to make sure it wasn't seen as an actual FOS.

All of those look like components of exactly what I said - a self-deprecating joke. As for the "copyright gm" - I was mostly pleased by the evidence that a newbie actually sat down and read my long IC post, because I've had a lot of evidence of people skipping it in the past.
Come to think of it, that's a positive indicator of his attitude towards the game.

@GM where in your IC post in this thread did you say anything like what he said? The closest I'm finding is:

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs".

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.03

Accountant (1):

drealmerz7

drealmerz7 (1):

Astyanaxx

Astyanaxx (1):

StaplerTowel

JaeReed (1):

GuiltyLion

GuiltyLion (1):

copper223

copper223 (3):

goodmorning, Accountant, Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting:

JaeReed

With

9

votes,

5

votes to lynch.

The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-02 15:38:07).

[GuiltyLion]

@GL
1. Why does scum Jae want to make a case on town IC GM in their first (RVS) post?

2. Why do you ignore GM's position on Jae in 92, i.e. why are you selectively scum hunting? For the rest of you, GM said she would expect a different behavior from town Jae and not finding it she thinks that entrance is remarkable (later implying to Accountant that it is in a scummy way), that according to GL's case on Jae is scummy, but ignored in this instance.

3. Since when is making massive assumptions a scum-tell? Are you more likely to make reasonably sounding posts when you are the informed minority or the uninformed majority?

4. When was Jae supposed to go after Asty given Asty is not posting and will more likely than not be replaced?

5. I was the first to call Accountant vs Dreal a TvT, why do you say I'm surfing the arguments (when I interfered in both) especially if you agree with me in one instance?

6. What is the scum motivation for Stapler to town-read Drealmer but point out that he is not helping? How is Stapler different in his game advancement compared to Asty?

These questions feel like a homework assignment but here we go

1. The IC is the hardest slot for scum to deal with in Newbies. If the IC is town and takes on a universally townread leader role, then they can singlehandedly guide discussion and if they nail scum (and town sheeps them) then they can break the game open on Day 1. If gm is town here then a scum!Jae would have plenty of reason to discredit and throw shade on her, even if it doesn't lead to a D1 lynch.

Also, he didn't make a case in his first post. He just voted and said "serious vote". The 'case' came later when he was trying to keep the pressure on.

2. feels like a stretch to try to invent some kind of hypocrisy here from me, I don't see your interpretation of 92 at all. GM isn't saying Jae is scum because his entrance wasn't as remarkable as it would have been if he were town. She said she found his entrance scummily unremarkable. You're acting like that means the same thing, but it definitely doesn't.

That's my whole point - there's a key difference between "if you were town, you'd do [x], you didn't do [x]" and "you did [y], scum often does [y]". The latter is what town cases usually look like. The former is the kind of case you come up with when you're making shit up. Reread how Jae phrases this:

My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then not voting them

It's also different in terms of what they're talking about, GM's point had to do with the idea of a "notable entrance" whereas Jae's point had to do with "ignoring a line of questioning" and "not voting". One might say all unremarkable entrances are scummy, but no one would suggest that all players who didn't vote Asty are scummy.

3. Like I just explained to Accountant, it's not the assumption itself that's scummy, it's that his entire scumread is propped up by it. Jae's case looks invented.

4. oh, I don't know, how about from his very first post, if he thought Asty's intro post was so scummy?! Again, JaeReed is scumreading GM for

not voting someone he himself never voted.

5. Comments like 47 and 72 are what gave me that impression. Especially 47, assuming it is a TvT then you're just positioning for towncred by elaborating on each side as an effort to resolve their dialogue for them.

6. The scum motivation is posting sheerly for towncred, very similar to what I just said about your own posts in 5. The post doesn't help to solve the game or develop reads, it's just a subtler version of LAMIST. Plus, 119 is not just written from the perspective of "here's why you shouldn't have made that joke", it's got extra remarks that imply that dreamerlz could possibly have scum motivation for posting it, yet Stapler doesn't seem to actually believe that they're indicative. Asty isn't developing the game either, but his posts haven't raised warning signals for me in the same way that 119 did.

[GuiltyLion]

DDD's summary is also quite bad, not in the least because he happens to arrive to an almost carbon copy (with the little accountant game in the mix) list of the way GL is reading the game but they

both mutually ignore each other

.

also excuse me, when did I ignore DDD?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't (the likely-hood increases if they feel threatened and my post before your catch-up was designed to do just that), what scum do a lot is ignore each other when they should be town-reading or scum-reading their opposite number based on their stances, in this case you should at the very least town-lean on each other for seeing the game the same way but nope, not a peep about GL's case on Jae.

Waiting so you're telling me you omitted critical details and nuance and instead favored brevity? Must be scum... or your point in that regards when directed at me was nonsense.

Absurd (in a bad way) is mentioning irrelevant or contradictory evidence about the reads you are giving while doing so, if you had given no reason whatsoever for reading said players I would have asked you first why you thought what you thought, the fact you are mentioning the wrong things (like the Banana post or addressing Jae as if he were misguided town) are the problem.

The claim that I addressed Jae as if he was misguided town is just factually incorrect. I was rebutting an incorrect argument, which is something that should be done whether it's scum or town making the argument. And about everything else you said in that sentence was wrong on theory.

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely newbie. I am expected to make you bash your head on the keyboard, particularly in the context of the results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your questions with dubious, imprecise answers making me look incredibly guilty although i'm only a just a terrified, lost newcomer. (copyright goodmorning)

I'm trying to argue that you should have poked a little bit at it. Specifically "results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths." and "dubious, impresice answers making me look incredibly guilty" or hell even a bit more of a push over the "copyright goodmorning" bit rather than the stresses you went through to make sure it wasn't seen as an actual FOS.

All of those look like components of exactly what I said - a self-deprecating joke. As for the "copyright gm" - I was mostly pleased by the evidence that a newbie actually sat down and read my long IC post, because I've had a lot of evidence of people skipping it in the past.
Come to think of it, that's a positive indicator of his attitude towards the game.

@GM where in your IC post in this thread did you say anything like what he said? The closest I'm finding is:

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs".

It's a pretty clear parody of the first bit at least.

"Hello all, I am your lovely... I am expected to..., particularly in the context of... Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your [theory] questions [truthfully]." None of that sounds familiar?

Also, if you could respond to Lion at some point, that would be cool.

--

I don't have anything to add to the copper discussion atm but it's definitely a good one and I'm sure I will at some point soonish!

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:

[goodmorning]

w h a t

[Accountant]

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

[Accountant]

w h a t

It's symbolic. I want time to think about things before I place my vote again.

[copper223]

1. The IC is the hardest slot for scum to deal with in Newbies. If the IC is town and takes on a universally townread leader role, then they can singlehandedly guide discussion and if they nail scum (and town sheeps them) then they can break the game open on Day 1. If gm is town here then a scum!Jae would have plenty of reason to discredit and throw shade on her, even if it doesn't lead to a D1 lynch.

Also, he didn't make a case in his first post. He just voted and said "serious vote". The 'case' came later when he was trying to keep the pressure on.

Semantics and mostly untrue stataments, Jae decided to enter the game with a serious vote on the IC and the above is an unlikely line to take, town IC's that are town-read don't often lead to singlehandedly lynching scum and they can be NK'd if they are a problem for the scum-team, but ok there is quite a bit of WIFOM involved and I'll give you that Jae seem to be sticking to their read excluding a lot of what is otherwise happening which is a bit suspect.

2. feels like a stretch to try to invent some kind of hypocrisy here from me, I don't see your interpretation of 92 at all. GM isn't saying Jae is scum because his entrance wasn't as remarkable as it would have been if he were town. She said she found his entrance scummily unremarkable. You're acting like that means the same thing, but it definitely doesn't.

That's my whole point - there's a key difference between "if you were town, you'd do [x], you didn't do [x]" and "you did [y], scum often does [y]". The latter is what town cases usually look like. The former is the kind of case you come up with when you're making shit up. Reread how Jae phrases this:

My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then not voting them.

It's also different in terms of what they're talking about, GM's point had to do with the idea of a "notable entrance" whereas Jae's point had to do with "ignoring a line of questioning" and "not voting". One might say all unremarkable entrances are scummy, but no one would suggest that all players who didn't vote Asty are scummy.

You did y and scum often does y is not what GM said, she specifically brought up accountant and I and claimed we were doing something with our SE posts while Jae was not, that is a clear example of I'm expecting x and you're not giving it to me so you are more likely to be scum, an argument by the way with which I don't necessarily disagree depending on how far fetched x is, so I fail to see why it should be considered scummy, unless again x is nonsensical. You are selectively applying a scum-tell.

4. oh, I don't know, how about from his very first post, if he thought Asty's intro post was so scummy?! Again, JaeReed is scumreading GM for

not voting someone he himself never voted.

That is not what Jae said, their point was GM was showing a double standard and the conclusion (which for sure is a stretch) they claim to have come to was Asty is GM's likely buddy and that's why she is softballing him, if you think x is a likely buddy for y and y is behaving scummily, you go after y first.

5. Comments like 47 and 72 are what gave me that impression. Especially 47, assuming it is a TvT then you're just positioning for towncred by elaborating on each side as an effort to resolve their dialogue for them.

Sure that's one possible motivation if I am scum, if I am town I also want them to resolve their argument if I am town-reading them because I want to form a town circle and focus on the more likely scum candidates, either way I am advancing the game and you accused me of coasting, are you retracting that in favor of me advancing a scum agenda now?

6. The scum motivation is posting sheerly for towncred, very similar to what I just said about your own posts in 5. The post doesn't help to solve the game or develop reads, it's just a subtler version of LAMIST. Plus, 119 is not just written from the perspective of "here's why you shouldn't have made that joke", it's got extra remarks that imply that dreamerlz could possibly have scum motivation for posting it, yet Stapler doesn't seem to actually believe that they're indicative. Asty isn't developing the game either, but his posts haven't raised warning signals for me in the same way that 119 did.

That post shows Stapler is frustrated or trying to look as if he is with the way Dreal is behaving, he doesn't need to believe those points are indicative of anything to write it.