Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[goodmorning]

This sentence pretty much epitomizes why I'm voting for copper (who, by the way, still hasn't asked me to explain...).

I did start a post a few times with something along the lines of: GM should get a move on explaining her read or this is becoming more likely to be scum fence-sitting and waiting to see where the wind blows, but then I reminded myself to be patient and not force it until I had a strong reason to believe that's what was happening.

Why does the post you quoted make you think I am scum?

Generally I don't see very many Town who don't instantly demand a case they can rebut to try to prove their innocence.

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. It's about the billionth time this game you've invoked some flavour of WIFOM in order to emphasize that you

couldn't possibly be Scum, no, really

.

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper

[Dragonfire]

Hey everyone! I'm replacing Astyanaxx apparently.

First off, UNVOTE: whoever I'm voting.

I'm going to catch up on the game so far and get some reads on people, so off to read 10 pages of arguing and debate

Also, I haven't played Mafia here for almost two years, so forgive me if I'm a bit rusty. I've played on other sites since then, but the method of playing is quite different from here. I'm sure I'll pick it up soon enough though.

[copper223]

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. It's about the billionth time this game you've invoked some flavour of WIFOM in order to emphasize that you couldn't possibly be Scum, no, really.

Everything is WIFOM once you go deep enough, especially if you look at it wanting to find a scum motive a priori, that comment wasn't even related to me, it was more about trying to figure DDD out.

Cite some of these billion of examples and I'll explain what was really happening.

[copper223]

VOTE: copper

This vote has a higher probability than average of coming from scum, if I am screwing up by misreading JaeReed (in which case I deserve the heat) this is where I'd look for their partner.

[Accountant]

Why?

[copper223]

Position in the wagon, timing and how I am reading the flow of the game (mostly relevant for the Jae connection).

[Accountant]

Position in the wagon isn't relevant unless you're referring to the butter zone, which is a myth. I don't see how timing is either. Not sure what you mean by flow of the game.

[copper223]

Also, I can see town_GM scum-reading me since in this world she thought you and Jae were scummy, I've indirectly deflected her push on you when I said I was reading your argument with Drealmer as TvT and all of my later reads are based on Jae being town, I can see town_DDD voting me if he is a VI that can't understand OMGUS but your motivation is pretty murky.

Your declared reason the last time: that I ignored your clarification request and that made it more likely I was scum coasting was at best ill informed at the time and I've since clarified that point to an extent that I don't think it's possible to still genuinely maintain that position, especially since you've shown a reasonable amount of depth in your Drealmer case.

If you have a new reason for voting me, I'm all ears.

[Accountant]

Everything that I want to say has been said. Besides that, I'm just sheeping my strongest townread.

[copper223]

Who is your strongest town-read?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

.

[Accountant]

Who is your strongest town-read?

GuiltyLion.

[copper223]

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Who is your strongest town-read?

GuiltyLion.

I don't have a youtube video for him though.

[Accountant]

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.

Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

[Dragonfire]

Caught up on the first seven pages, here are a few thoughts / things which jumped out at me:

Yep, I saw the specifics about modding (and like that it is so), which is another reason I want to get a bunch of games under my belt first so I can get familiar with everything here before thinking about modding.

This game will last 2-3 months? Interesting! I thought I had checked a few newbie 9p games and they were 3-5 weeks, maybe I mis-looked. That's a bit longer than I anticipated, but no big deal.

In that case, let's move things along...

VOTE: staplertowel.

I'm sure that will be looked favorably upon!

This brought a player who hadn't even posted yet to L-2 in RVS, and makes me feel like you just voted him cause others had voted him.

Anyway going back to my oncilla suspicions, I was thinking about why my gut wasn't happy with his posting (because on the surface he seems to be scum-hunting well) and I remember a good read serrapaladin gave in a game; most (newbie) town players will go through the thread linearly, they see something, comment about it, move on to the next thing that happened, read it, give their opinion etc... but oncilla seems to be selectively picking out some of the points of contention in the thread and always finding a reason for why that's potentially scummy, I think that could point at a different motive compared to trying to game-solve.

Good points, I can see this from his ISO. Having done this as newb-Scum before, I know the mentality.

anyway, you've hit me so many times as scummy and that stuff between jae and GM seems silly too (not as silly as this, mind you), soo, yep, now I figure it is best to chill on it and allow others to make their assessments on us, I mean, feel free to do whatever you were going to do but, I'm pretty much done with this with you unless you have any questions for me that are necessary to clear up.

I like this, you're acknowledging that the argument isn't getting anywhere and deciding to put it behind you for the moment, as it's causing a distraction from actual scumhunting. I wish I'd done this in my last game!

[copper223]

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.

Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

1. What are these good arguments against me?

2. That's very little to go on for your top town-read. Why would ScumLion more likely side with Jae rather than GM?

[Dragonfire]

The reason I changed my mind about drealmerz is twofold:

1) I was engaged in a protracted argument with him. I'm always suspicious of scumreads arising from stuff like that, because it's statistically unlikely for the person I hop into a game with and immediately get into a shouting match with to just coincidentally happen to be scum. It's far more likely to be confirmation bias - indeed, I found fewer instances of hypocrisy, misrepresentations and inconsistency than I thought existed when I went over both our ISOs in the writing up of the case above.

2) Marquis once said that since town are more likely to appear than scum, it's okay to throw away a body of scummy posts if you find a single post that you think is impossible to come from scum. I have not found such a post, but I have found something that is sufficiently unlikely to come from scum that it outweighs the evidence against drealmerz. Namely, this quote:

I like this reasoning too.

Because of human nature, once you get into a discussion with someone else you want to prove you are right so you're often going to use the best argument you can come up with regardless of whether it can be applied to what you posted as well, also it's hard not to have a double standard when considering yourself (and knowing your alignment) and other people.

Some more good points, I can relate to this.

VOTE: copper

Could you possibly explain your reasons for this vote? (sorry if you already gave reasons a couple of pages ago and I missed them).

Current Reads:

Leaning town - Accountant, drealmerz, copper, Stapler
No real read - everyone else

Yes, I have no scumreads. No, this isn't normal for me, and I'm surprised I don't, but I haven't actually read a post yet which I deem as sufficiently scummy to warrant a scumread or vote. I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced. After all, my own predecessor said some quite weird things.... Maybe I should do some more rereading.

[Accountant]

Dragon - I explain it a little further down the line.

[goodmorning]

Hey everyone!

I thought your name was familiar. Hi!

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. It's about the billionth time this game you've invoked some flavour of WIFOM in order to emphasize that you couldn't possibly be Scum, no, really.

Everything is WIFOM once you go deep enough, especially if you look at it wanting to find a scum motive a priori, that comment wasn't even related to me, it was more about trying to figure DDD out.

Cite some of these billion of examples and I'll explain what was really happening.

WOOSH.

No thanks, I make it a habit not to incite bullshit when possible.

Also, I can see town_GM scum-reading me since in this world she thought you and Jae were scummy,

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I've indirectly deflected her push on you when I said I was reading your argument with Drealmer as TvT

That had nothing at all to do with my read change.

ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

Lion may know me well enough to realise that this was the case, too. I'd have to look back and see how much I got shit on in whatever game(s?) we played though.

--

inb4 amished.

[goodmorning]

So in N1667 I was Tracker who had to CC a VT who claimed Cop D1. In N1644 we killed JKLion N1and I wasn't really suspected until D3.

So maybe, maybe not.

[Accountant]

Why did the VT claim Cop? :3

[goodmorning]

Reading the N1644 Dead Thread, Lion definitely has known me well enough to know the weaknesses in my IC play.

--

Because he was run up.

[goodmorning]

Also ftr I have feelings about Dragon's catchup but I'm not saying what they are yet because I want to see who agrees with me first.)