Civilization Mafia [GAME OVER]

[The DEO]

Keep in mind you don't put Vecna as a townread but then tell Vecna to drop something as if he is a townread.

~~Math

[Vecna]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

I dont know no Tammy, but I wouid actually FULLY support PV to get the stump. DEO wouldnt be bad either since the slot might not even survive the first night at this rate.

Both have been the voice of reasonable discourse, voices that I wouldnt want to see silenced.

Ive witnessed too many games recently where scum kills off the vocal town players and the game dies a silent death in the end where scum just wade through the apathy to a victory.

[The DEO]

Third time I have been threatened to be killed by a scumread. Nice to be elevated to likely NK after not posting for hours and when I did on post 800 you dropped the townread...Interesting.

~~Math

[Vecna]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

Drixx is my Tammy.

I really still dont see how you can state this.

He has contributed absolutely nothing so far, except showing off his ego and attacking me. Not something id prefer to have guaranteed to be hounding me all game long.

Just stating that he's obv-town for being so vocal about wanting the stump does nothing to convince me otherwise either.

So ill mirror PV's sentiment here; if he wants it so badly he better earn it. Else I really hope it gets snatched by someone else. And please DEO, do consider building it yourself.

[The DEO]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

[The DEO]

A treestump is good in the right hands. I was a strong advocate for Tammy to get it in The Thing because having her around the whole game would have kept me grounded and I recognized that.

Not only is there not a "Tammy" in this game, it's different here because we have to expend more resources (Stonehenge) to get the dead treestump confirmed, where I think that role could be better utilized to clear someone who is a question mark or if we're lucky clear someone later in the game when there are less places for scum to hide.

I dont know no Tammy, but I wouid actually FULLY support PV to get the stump. DEO wouldnt be bad either since the slot might not even survive the first night at this rate.

Both have been the voice of reasonable discourse, voices that I wouldnt want to see silenced.

Ive witnessed too many games recently where scum kills off the vocal town players and the game dies a silent death in the end where scum just wade through the apathy to a victory.

I want only Drixx getting Pyramids and especially not PV. Anyway, I brought out Math early. Go to town you two.

~Titus

[Vecna]

Unless they come and in and do something I'd take kyouko over Yuri right now cause I am not overly compelled by the Yuri case.

What's wrong with the Yuri case?

I am just not really sold by it and would rather lynch A&N and Kyoko

So explain why your reasons for Kyoko are better than the presented reasons for Yuri

[Vecna]

I would love to give math some constructive feedback. But this is all confbiased as hell.

Only a flip will save math. And it not even be a Yuri one because they think Vecna, Spiff, and I are all bussing Yuri

How is it confbiased as hell? I have demonstrated what I think you are doing. The lack of hunting. 239 has random reads and doesn't address Loudmouth Vecna. Explain your none science none waffles and now that isn't trying to make sure not all scum are on none.

~~Math

Math, before adressing your wall, answer me

one

two things:

-Why would I hard townread ALL my teammates but then still proceed to bus one? If I could get such a strong townblock going with scum, why not just get some mislynches first? Everyone is townreading us, so its not like we need the extra towncred from bussing do we? Look at this request from a numbers pov please, because I would too. Tell me what you see.

-After last game, why do you not believe me when I say I wanted none because I saw clear abuse potential in the others by scum? If I was scum here I wouldve wanted and fought for science. Even last game as scum I was telling town what would help scum and I was being genuine about it.

Either way - you need to come to your senses regarding me because youre applying a completely false POV. If Yuri flips scum, at this rate its just going to reinforce your beliefs. If Yuri flips town, your beliefs will still be intact but you'll instead just think we coordinated together to mislynch town. Im not even going to try to discredit your other reads (except LUV) since I definately cannot tell for sure at this point about them. However, deducing those reads from the premise that I am scum is reasoning from the wrong vantage point.

[Vecna]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

Tell titus to build the stump.

[The DEO]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

Tell titus to build the stump.

We will likely not. I am a big fan of not interfering with my plans of townreads, particularly when they make themselves self resolving play. If you can convince us Drixx is scum, you got a tall order, but we'd consider it. Drixx is the only TR aside from A and N that Math and I both share as strong solid town.

Good night.

~Titus

[The DEO]

1) Because you were forced to. I explained that. The scum bus gives you cred and lets you milk Titus. The fact I came in suggesting you scum makes you have to kill us. You want us to treestump so you can leverage Titus continuously. If I am treestumped then that's an entire game of us bumping heads until I can be listened to which you won't let me. Right now you don't need the cred if I am ignored but if Titus realizes what I am saying is going on then you do need it. You're forced to vote Yuri like I said.

2) I abuse PRs as scum all the time. As town in Undertale I found the only scum. As Maxous said the less PRs the more scumsided. Yes I was wrong in PyP but that wasn't with an outed liar. You are being very disconnected to me when you say you as scum said what would help scum in PYP but here you are saying as town what would help scum and it is blatantly IMHO false from 3 different setup speccers who you are townreading and aren't listening to. Yet I am confbiased for pointing out where I feel you are a hypocrite?

About the last paragraph you are right a Yuri lynch isn't telling to me but pushing you is. That is why I was before all three of you chainsawed me. I would much rather lynch in the Fearsome Four level of scum reads. But I can't get Titus on board.

Also you should post a Yuri case. None of the Fearsome Four are. I think then beeboy would see Yuri scum and get closer to a Yuri lynch which you claim to want yes?

~~Math

[The DEO]

Correction Frogger has. Was off a line in my notes. But 1/4 is still piss poor. Would like a case from you.

~~Math

[Vecna]

Three prongs of importance
1) Scum made none instantly the most popular by dogpiling on. Note: I do not feel this was an organic plan but more of a "let's deny Town information". Especially with Vecna who works better with less pieces in play.

I work better with less pieces in play? Id actually like to think my strongest point is managing to manipulate games with complex mechanics. I am not that different from Titus in this regard, and I especially love to do it as scum. I love to theorize about elaborate scum strategies to win. If you dont think this is true, go read our scum PT from PYP. If I was scum, I wouldve pushed hard for arts or science just to be able to execute one of many possible strategies with either.

2) Scum all defend each other and garcia in the first 11 pages.

If you think I decided to change up my scum play and do this, its a point I cannot really counter. However ill point you towards the way I treated my former teammates as scum in PYP. I never openly hard-townread any of them except LUV because I wanted him to survive to get his vigshot off at least once. I sowed suspicion the rest of them at every point and reaped the towncred, and used a tactical bus to get Titus discredited. Notice how none of that is required at this point, and openly forming a block with my scum teammates would be suicide and have no long-game working strategic idea behind it at all.

3) They attack anyone who isn't in that 5 to see who gets traction in those first pages.

Not to see who gets traction, but to poke for reactions and to gauge the honestly of their replies. Do you really honestly think town does not do this?

MidD1 (up til 800)
With the townread of the majority of the game in place and LUV being a wagon by A&N and Sondham things are going pretty damn good. Yuri's being voted by Titus and LUV is the only one with a vote on Leonshade on very weak sauce of naked. This is an excellent start. In the span of 30 posts Spiffeh gets voted by Maxous and Nero is something Spiffeh is trying to start using the boost of townreads. Frogger then floats a potential Maxous wagon and Titus at this point is eating up everything except Yuri. I can already see signs of it here. So I prepare for the uphill fight and try to scum hunt and confirm what I think. Beeboy votes the scums. Look who is a counter wagon at end game. Vecna takes the 3rd slot on the Maxous wagon. It's not his buddies who have done literal jack shit to hunt. LUV's vote has been sitting for a while and it protects his buddy.

Dont really have anything to comment, and I cba to go back to read if this is how it happened. I do have a hard time deducing what it is you see here exactly. I do know I was suspicious of spiffeh at some point, not sure if was at this point but that quickly vanished.

EndD1

As soon as I post my theory in post 800. Spiffeh panick votes Maxous.

Id say Spiffeh has been in pretty solid controll of the game at all times so far, and I dont particularly have the impression that panicking is something he does

They need to get a wagon mislynch asap with the flimsy excuse Nero's posts are better. Spiffeh's got a Creature town read down so he can sheep. Frogger then moves to the Yuri vote as its safe as too many scum on Maxous is bad and scums want a wagon to be town not scum. Maxous didn't happen because Maxous is town and the wagon is town driven.

Still not sure how anyone can be so sure about a Maxous townread. Ive observed him as my PT partner for the longest time last game and I dont quite get the same feelings from him.

Town realized their depr. Titus goes on her MariaR is scum paranoia because of the game Maria snowed her in. But Titus still scumreads Yuri. Pretty much because all the scum are being wagoned they're split all up on each other rather evenly minus LUV who is pushing NoticeMeSenpai/JaeReed with a naked vote. If scums start more wagons it becomes suspicious so they are all bussing each other. 1188 follows rule of three. LUV says Leon Yuri Notice. Leon is never happening and LUV noticed it before. Notice is falling apart. LUV is pinned. Outs Yuri as an alt but never actually posts a reason for scumreading Yuri praying it doesn't take off. 1253/1254 solidify it. He said Notice is confirmed but votes Yuri. That's dissonance town just doesn't do there. There's no reason to compromise. LUV still hasn't provided a reason other than knowing this isn't Yuri's town game. He's been pinned by prior posts and to have a consistent narrative he has to vote Yuri early. If he does it late he's fucked.

Scum starting more wagons suspicious? wut?
What can I say, I agreed with luv on Senpai but for more than that one reason. Saying notice fell apart is nonsense since it never got started.
Why would you poke at your scum partner being someone's alt?
The rest are ok points I guess that show inconsistencies in LUVs play, but I know I havent provided many reasons for my Yuri vote either. I do still think yuri + notice is a solid possiblity though

Spiffeh plays role of vote anyone not scum. First with Maxous now Beeboy.

Reasons for townreading both these slots? Im just not seeing it, and I think youre only TR'ing them because your scumreads are pushing them.

Frogger now departs his buddies wagon and votes beeboy because it has steam. This is a clear attempt to save Yuri.
Vecna then hops on as well.

Guess this does fit in your theory. Its not the reasoning why I did it though

What's really interesting is then Vecna and Frogger move to Yuri together in the span of ~50 posts.

If he's our scum buddy why would we do this as opposed to staying on Beeboy - who actually changed up his play after getting pressured. Surely it wouldve been super easy to get this lynched instead?

During those approximate posts Vecna hiveminds LUV with the same Notice/Yuri/someone else threesome. Why do scum always do threesomes? It's annoying. It's also RIGHT AFTER I call them out for not bussing Yuri.

Why do you not adress my points as opposed to just calling it hiveminding?

Vecna defends Frogger in it as well. Then LUV says to "Fuck it" and lynch Yuri. Then scums start hopping on. It's because I pointed it out. If scums didn't hop on it'd be caught in a review of the game.

Once again, youre seeing things that arent there. Im perfectly fine winning as scum without publicly coordinating with my buddies. This is not that. Its me trying to form a townbloc.

Town then votes A&N for the derp wagon and it starts to dissolve. Vecna satisfied with the stallout tries to revive NoticeMeSenpai. When that goes no where it goes back to Yuri. Spiffeh then hops on because the Yuri wagon is what is happening today. If they bail it looks suspicious. Scums have to vote Yuri.

It did go somewhere. Like I argued I believe a Yuri scumflip will be incriminating to notice. So doing yuri > notice is the logical order of lynches.

I can understand that sometimes I'm not listened to because it seems like I'm OMGUSing. However it's hard when someone throws shade before you even post anything other than I'd like sciences. That's one opinion and they were doubtcasting anyone's ability to solve the game. I can see where it seems like that but at the same time it's really not. LUV could have a drinking game with how much he has shaded Titus's ability to solve the game before Titus caved and voted the end of none.

People throw shades at you because from their point of view your scumread (+reasoning) on themselves is nonsense. Maybe not the best course of action, but its completely understandable. And yes, you are arguing out everything based on the premise that I am scum (allthough your wall also did show some isolated points that im willing to give the benefit of the doubt). Ive allready stated I think a significant chunk of the scum is going to be in the big townreads. THat is just a fact of life when the setup contains way above average levels of talent.

Look at the final vote:
None (11): Lil Uzi Vert, Vecna, Sondam, Spiffeh, Albert B. Rampage, Elbirn, Leonshade, Akane and Nebby, Maxous, beeboy, The DEO

I'm not scumreading all 11 people there. I hard townread Sondham, ABR, Elbrin, Leonshade, A&N, Maxous, beeboy and I know our slot is town.

How can you hard townread Leonshade, ABR, Maxous and beeboy? I really really do not get it, and id like to see an explenation (sorry if I missed it on one of them, but I dont think so)

What is interesting is Frogger's switch to sciences which I call out in my PT. I even called Maria scumsiding for doing it and I had a hard town Maria read based on the first few posts. It's not the strategy it's how they posted about it and how they all interact with each other.

Wish you'd give me this courtesy as well, because I think ive been rather solid in my explenation of why I wanted <none>.

I also have an extremely hard time seeing how it's not Vecna/LUV/Frogger/Spiffeh/Yuri. But if I'm wrong on someone it's probably Yuri. If any of these flip town I will reassess then, yet I just don't see it. I've listened to Titus for hours but just nothing happening.

~~Math

I wont claim that theres only 1 scum in there. There are some people that are widely townread that are going to be fooling us. Im convinced of that. And we need to figure out who it is. IT IS NOT ME THOUGH. So please, please - stop confbiassing everything around that because id strongly prefer to work with you. But atm youre making it impossible.

[Fro99er]

Keep in mind you don't put Vecna as a townread but then tell Vecna to drop something as if he is a townread.

~~Math

What?

You are really going to have to re-evaluate your play after this game

[Vecna]

Funny story Titus and I actually agree we're likely the NK which is why were are getting both our thoughts out. We just think so for different reasons.

~~Math

Tell titus to build the stump.

We will likely not. I am a big fan of not interfering with my plans of townreads, particularly when they make themselves self resolving play. If you can convince us Drixx is scum, you got a tall order, but we'd consider it. Drixx is the only TR aside from A and N that Math and I both share as strong solid town.

Good night.

~Titus

Is Drixx' activity level also a mountainous climb? As in, will he become more active later on in the game with his insights? Will they grow in quality?

I did not vibe well with his catchup wall at all, and im unimpressed with his activity levels so far. Yes its a lame reason to attack him, but its a great reason to not want him as our stump right now.

[Fro99er]

Titus-

I can't even take math seriously if they think myself, spiff, Vecna, AND uzi have all bussed Yuri, and the five of us are their only scum reads.

It literally makes no fucking sense

[Vecna]

At any rate regarding Drixx - this is another variation of how I could see myself abusing it.

Claim you want it, but bank on you not getting it. This both provides an excuse for not getting nightkilled and gets you towncred. You then state people who do have it should not out.

It is very very likely that the era that brings us the cop also brings us a godfather wonder. Theres even variations where its likely to assume that a resolution providing two wonders per person pops up at some point (the mod even hinted at this - either that or a wonder that allows you to build two additional wonders), which allows even more variations of this approach.

[Fro99er]

The worst part about math is even if Yuri flips scum Math is still going to scum read all four of us because they think it's a quadruple bus.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD FOUR SCUM BUS ONE OTHER SCUM?

IT MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. STOP PLAYING LIKE TRASH

[Fro99er]

Scum isn't going to NK someone playing as trash as this

[Fro99er]

What is interesting is Frogger's switch to sciences which I call out in my PT.

OH GOD FROGGER SWITCHED!

Tell me exactly what the hell is wrong with switching a vote. FOR A FUCKING RESOLUTION

[Vecna]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

[Fro99er]

Frogger now departs his buddies wagon and votes beeboy because it has steam. This is a clear attempt to save Yuri.

You clearly haven't even been paying attention all day.

I'm the one driving the Yuri wagon.

Did you even see how pissed off I got that Spiff wouldn't acknowledge my Yuri case?

[Vecna]

I do love the too scummy to be scum approach day1 to get 30-40% to scumread me and then smooth-sail through the rest of the game being virtually immune to NK's.

[Fro99er]

Im wondering if Math's play is a stratagem for survival

They are either town playing good cop bad cop with their heads, or they are scum, or they are town and Math is the worst ever non-newbie I've ever played with

[Vecna]

How do you feel a Yuri scumflip reflects on Spiff?

(@frog)