Open 693 - Capture the (White) Flag - Mod KIA

[Io]

UNVOTE:
I think it's a pretty reckless play in all honesty.

[QuantumRadius]

Yeah I realized that because you said it.
But I was thinking from the perspective of "holy **** this guy would ruin the town if he lived late game if any Mafia were to even have the slightest hint he was a VI."

and this is just not what I saw. one moment please, I'll explain as best I can

[Io]

Go ahead. I'll probably not get to it until tomorrow because I got up early for work and I'm getting tired.

[QuantumRadius]

Spoiler: explanation of reaction test

For fucks sake though QR, you are the root of the problem. My stance on you is taking a dive as we speak. Either stop fucking around with "i dunno what to make of anything" without referencing anything, or just dont post at all.

You know what, im not voting anyone. I realize i was just townreading you but if you say nothing is happening in this game, its not an option to sit back and watch.
VOTE: QuantumRadius

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway

So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.

So.
VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.

these two votes are, in my sight, miles apart from each other.

dong's tone is genuine frustration. he's a bit angry that i was playing useless. he also realizes that he isn't on the board. this signals to me that he wants to kick the game into motion and see some action in the thread. he isn't playing passively and letting the town destroy itself. he easily could have forgotten the vote and left it as a shadecast, but he instead wants me active and forming independent position. can't see that post ever coming from a mafia member.

your vote, on the other hand, screams that you want me mislynched. you clearly don't give a shit about my alignment. you just know that i was being useless, and the town would feel as though they weren't losing much through the lynch, camouflaging the mafia members on my wagon. it was extremely opportunistic and advantageous from a scum perspective.

conclusion: dong town, io scum. i got exactly what i wanted.

[Donempire]

L1 them

</3 do I really have to hardclaim for you

In a game that only has vanilla townie and mafia members, why does this post exist?

Nice 180 too IO.

So QR, you're saying you waited around doing nothing just to luck out and have people vote you just in lieu of a reaction test? Or am i understanding it wrong?

[DeltaW]

VC 1.6

QuantumRadius (L-3) - taiho, MarioManiac4, Kawso, Dongempire
Io (L-4) - Lil Uzi Vert, QuantumRadius, Sesq
Dongempire (L-6) - Kop

Spawn Campers (5) - Flairs, Assemblerotws, BTD6_maker, Chickadee, Io

Nobody is due to be kicked for being AFK for too long (cheer).

taiho and Assemblerotws have been prodded.

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

(expired on 2017-07-16 11:16:00)

[Donempire]

Spoiler: IO

UNVOTE:

How about no. He's at L-2, well now L-3, and I'm not particularly fond of having someone at L-1 or L-2 for a rvs.
Because heaven knows someone will lolhammer on accident.

I was. I thought it was a joke to want to lynch someone on not having reads 2 days into day 1.

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway

So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.

So.
VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.

Contradiction one. Lets analyze this one by one, shall we?

First she says that she isnt comfortable having someone at L-2 for a RVS. Fair point. If it was true. She already mentioned that she didnt realize we were out of RVS, but it should have been obvious to anyone keeping up with the game, and if not the game, the damned post count. No game of this caliber has a rvs that lasts until post 280.

Why is this post important? Because she is intentionally trying to steer herself away from any unforeseen consequences (the possible "lolhammer" that will never happen in a L-2). If she really cared about pushing the game forward, she'd have put her foot down and pushed QR harder till he squeezed. Instead she just backs off, saying "isnt it rvs" when its pretty clear by all means it isnt.

And again, her second post proves that she isnt keeping up with the game, with her mindless push on LUV for a post that was posted at least a few pages before that, and now the 2 days comment. I just isod her and she keeps coming back. We just dont notice it all that much because she really doesnt have anything productive to say. Shes just passing by to vote, or throw shade, without following the game.

I think post #163 should've been a clear indicator we were out of RVS, but she still brings it up as a reason to not vote someone, even though she was just voting lil uzi. Whatever.

And then in her last post, he just outright votes QR without any plan on what to do next, with her reasoning being "there isnt much to lose" and "he probably wont be that usefull late game" which is just bullshit coming from someone who wasnt even confident in putting someone in L-2 10 posts ago.

Why is this noteworthy? Because if she was town, she wouldnt be trying to lynch QR instantly, instead trying to squeeze him for information as i said. In her case, she isnt giving QR any room for defense, and is just trying to get an easy lynch in. If we lynch QR now, we will get literally no information out of him apart from his few reads, which is exactly what mafia wants. Exactly what IO wants.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Io

I'm going to play some age of empires, then i'll come and explain her second contradiction.

[QuantumRadius]

L1 them

</3 do I really have to hardclaim for you

In a game that only has vanilla townie and mafia members, why does this post exist?

Nice 180 too IO.

So QR, you're saying you waited around doing nothing just to luck out and have people vote you just in lieu of a reaction test? Or am i understanding it wrong?

the first one was a meme
the third one: not exactly. i wanted people to interact with me so i could get a better perspective, so i made a couple posts under the false premise that i was useless. i shadecasted myself for that very reason. i just told them something false, and saw who took the bait.

[Kawso]

So if you're able to formulate anything, what have you found out?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

So if you're able to formulate anything, what have you found out?

I really dislike this.

Isn't it self-explanatory?

[QuantumRadius]

So if you're able to formulate anything, what have you found out?

i mean it's not like I have a spoiler with analysis in 303 or anything

[Kawso]

Um.

I just found out that spoilers look like that here.

I'll go read it

[Kawso]

UNVOTE:

[Kop]

Yeah I realized you would be an easy mislynch and that's what concerns me about keeping you around for late game.

Because let's face it you flat out said you would be a great asset for the Mafia come late game because you could easily be manipulated or mislynched.
Come a 3v2 of 4v2 (TvS) scenario you would be a pretty large detriment for the town regardless of your alignment.
I ran a bunch of what if scenarios in my head and I couldn't see anything good coming from you not being lynched D1 or 2.

The predominant of those being that if you're Town the Mafia wont kill you because you pointed out to them that you are bad at scum hunting. It would be good for them to have someone like that around in the final 5 or 6 for two reasons.
The first being like you pointed out yourself you would not be a hard target to mislynch and they could push you on that you have been no help to the town. Though it would depend on how they went about that, and really if they would try to risk that. More explained in the next paragraph.
The other being they could prey on your lack of self confidence and use it to persuade you into lynching a townie.

Then if you're Mafia it's a bit better for the town for you to live late game than if you were town, but not by much.
You would basically be given a free past almost to not be lynched in a 3v2 or 4v2.
Like I said earlier you would be a horrible kill target for Mafia since you told them you would be a good person to keep late game. This means if you are Mafia you get a flawless excuse as to why you are never night killed.
In adition to that you would be giving little to no reads to keep your VI card in play making you an extremely risky lynch (given this is white flag) since only 2 Mafia need to be lynched going after the Mafia who is nearly impossible to read due to not making associative tails or reads is far more risky than trying to lynch a Mafia based on the first one's flip.

Honestly it is reaching into policy lynch territory, but frankly you made yourself such a valuable asset to the Mafia if you are town it could be fatal if you lived to the final 5 or 6.

And honestly if you're coming out and saying that you were faking being a VI, then you're gambit was pretty reckless as if you actually failed you would liekly have been lynched due to the lynch all liars mentality for faking to be a VI.

I had a early town lean on you earlier, but this has made me change my stance towards you.

Not only is it a silly reason to be lynching someone, but we shouldn't be talking about heading into policy lynching anyone, especially at a early stage. Now I'm all for squeezing Quantum but I never would like to lynch someone because they've said there game play isn't good.

I understand your point about towards the end of the game, but we shouldn't be flat out lynching him early into the game because of that, we should at least give Quantum enough pressure to get into the game and let the course of the game run, not just flat out pushing him into policy lynching.

It just seems to me that this could be opportunistic scum trying to push dead meat in order to get a mislynch, so that they can get to night phase, without much repurcussions.

VOTE: Io

[Chickadee]

Catching up now

[Chickadee]

aaaagh there isn't enough to read yeeeet
I can't read anyone yeeeet

You should get some glasses then.

i read all 12 pages and there's nothing Ai
zzzzz

I feel like everyones already commented on this but....are we playing the same game

this game feels dead and i don't have enough reads

But you have some. Start there.

We're wasting our time discussing trivial matters.

I don't like the fact that people are complaining if they can't get reads, do something to get them!

VOTE: QuantumRadius because of this

Kawso can be town for this.

why are you wagoning me for me not finding enough content to base a read on

VOTE: Quantum
Why have you not already solved the game? Gosh.

This vote feels really fake. I don't like it. We're trying to drag this game out of rvs, and get stuff done, and then you do this?

Wait we're considering this RVS?

Oops

I wasn't. I've been out of rvs a while now.

Spoiler: :lol:

I was. I thought it was a joke to want to lynch someone on not having reads 2 days into day 1.

Day 1 started 6 days ago..

______
Yea, Io is scum. And I believe she is at L-2. I want to wait for an official vote count before placing my vote though.

[Io]

I see a lot of the votes against me using the buzzword opportunistic, and I'm calling it a buzzword because it's not even being used correctly to describe the post.

Opportunistic is fairly strait forward of a concept, and it's pushing someone for any slight hint of evidence they could reasonably be scum.
Here's a side by side comparison of what is an opportunistic push and the vote I made against QR:

Spoiler: quotes

VOTE: Flairs

Honestly there is not much to go off of from their 2 posts (165 and 236) so this is mostly just to put a bit of pressure on them as in those posts I get a slight vibe they are scum motivated.
I say this primarily because they are only commenting on others reads and not making any their selves. It feels to me at least like those are both pretty safe posts (which of course is not a scum tell, but I feel lit's more characteristic of Mafia to be playing it safe with reads.) Their comments also are quite on the safe side with taking a fence position in 165 the "I agree with read, but..."
It's mostly a gut vote they could be scum. Need more content from them to be sure though.

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway

So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.

So.
VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.

There is a pretty clear difference in that I was pushing Flairs in the first post because of a gut that he was scum. That's the definition of being opportunistic.
The second post is nothing like that though, I think it's clear that was a vote to remove a harmful player from the town. That is certainly not what an opportunistic vote it. It's what a policy vote is called.
That basically means like I explained in 296 that keeping QR alive would have meant the Town have a massive disadvantage come late game (under the assumption he was not lying which he was,
but we're not talking about hindsight here).
Furthermore I have set priorities on who I think should be lynched which goes loosly like this: Confirmed Scum/Likely Scum/Village Idiots (which I thought QR was) and other Unreadable Players/Slightly Scum/Other Policy Lynches such as a notoriously good mafia player or bad town player.
That's why I had QR higher on my want to lynch list than the gut suspicion I had of Flairs being scum.

Secondly I have to address Dong's post directly because really his logic just doesn't quite make sense to me and is just wrong from what I can tell.
In his first point that it was not RVS when I made the post because post 163 was making it clear that we were out of RVS doesn't make sense for a few reasons:
One, RVS is defined by well random voting it's not a concrete "it can't go to post X". And considering Tailo, Kawso, MM4 had given no reason for voting him which is what random votes are. My vote was just a joke as well, so when you took him to L-2 trying to seriously lynch him I grew concerned and wanted to get off.
Two, how is post 163 showing a clear indication RVS is done? That post was addressing the argument over weather scum knew Town was blue or not which the mod then confirmed they did know, so I was right it was a pointless argument. That post in general had absolutely nothing to do with voting. Yes it was discussion, but discussion can still happen in RVS because RVS exists outside of discussion as again it is just defined by randomly voting people.
Moving on I don't exactly appreciate your insult that I've not been following the game because I've been keeping on top of everything the whole game and even combed through ISO's which lead me to thinking Flair was potential scum. Just because there was 1 post where I thought we were 48 hours into the game, that doesn't mean that I haven't been following the game. I have a few reasons as to why I messed up and thought it was only 48 hours but I'm not going to get into a rant about my day yesterday or go beyond mentioning that I was in another Mafia game offsite that was 48ish hours into day 1.
After that minirant the only other thing I haven't addressed from that post is the notion of me 180ing which I guess is presumably because I unvoted him for being at L-2 then putting him at L-2. Yeah, OK that would be a contridiction if you ignore the reasoning behind the unvote and revote. The unvote I already explained how I think you were wrong with saying it wasn't RVS, but the revote I also explained in the last paragraph in that I came to the realization that he was not good for the town to have around.

Another just slight addon I wanted to make about the supposed 180 in reasoning for voting him was because it hadn't clicked in my head until 290 that he was a VI (or really just pretending to be a VI). I hadn't noticed that before that he was being such an obvious VI. While I don't like that I missed that in the first place because of how thorough and observant I like to think I am that's basically the reason I had voted him on the 3rd or so time he screamed out that he was a VI and not the first or so times.

[Io]

Also Chick there's a vote count on this page, so not sure what vote count you're waiting on.

[MarioManiac4]

The Io wagon is bad.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

The Io wagon is good.

Fixed that for you.

[QuantumRadius]

The Io wagon is bad.

y

[Io]

The Io wagon is bad.

y

Maybe he's just scum and slipped knowing I was town?

[Chickadee]

Also Chick there's a vote count on this page, so not sure what vote count you're waiting on.

Ah so there is.

Yep.

I completely missed that. I also completely miscounted those votes.

[Chickadee]

VOTE: Io

[MarioManiac4]

i dislike io wagon because occam's razor is a thing
it's more likely io just has a cold and calculating playstyle than scum using a claim to be a VI to elaborately jump on the wagon than to jump on for the scummy things QR has done.
also the wagon composition is pretty horrible.