Micro 768: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Game Over

[Korts]

Lamist is an acronym for look at me I'm so town.

[Jingle]

Spoiler: Korts

I was thinking about what my genuine intent read on Jingle meant. It wasn't intent, it was purpose that I saw. The seams between the paragraphs are quite visible, and there is a man with a needle on the other side. I will have to re-examine the tapestry that he has woven to see who's behind it.

Hm.

Can you condense and simplify?

Apparently this is going to be a thing, because you aren't even close to the only person misunderstanding the thrust of my case. Will focus on reacting to other things for now, but I should have the time to pull apart and explain my wall later.

No offense was meant with the reaction baiting bullshit. What I meant was you seem to be laying traps and leaving prompts and breadcrumbing all over the place, which I don't find as constructive as being transparent.

For example, this plan you have alluded to, and claim to have explained. I have seen no explanation, and the post you linked is not one of yours.

Ah... My mistake there. The post was meant to be two further down the page. Specifically in the third section, where I talk about you and Luca. The plan was to do things solely to get the game moving, without being easy to read or putting my reads into the thread. In this case, I did this to get a good sense of how people were reacting to someone showing signs of competence but not signs of being town. Scum generally tend to either buddy or waffle those people, while town tend towards paranoia and outright scumreads. It's actually pretty much worked perfectly this game as far as the number of reads it's gotten me. Pending flips confirming suspicions, I'm comfortable calling it a success.

I actually find that replacement pretty scummy.

Why?

Spoiler: Ray Responses

Just gonna start with saying I know jingle wants me to react to the vote on me in some way, but this is the limit of what I can say in response to it. "Okay."

What the hell is LAMIST? I've seen it used several times now and can't for the life of me figure out what it's supposed to stand for.

"Look at me, I'm so town!" Basically, it means a post whose sole motivation is to prove the person making it is town rather than to actively scumhunt. Pretty much the inverse of "too scummy to be scum".

For other Jingle related things: I really dislike using meta to describe / explain everything, including your own play. While there's a certain amount of influence meta should have on your reads, it definitely shouldn't be

the

thing you rely on. People change. How they think changes. Situations and circumstances being different will change how they behave. It's not as cut and dry as "they were like this before so they will be like this again in this situation." In no small part because the situation is not exactly the same. Also, people who are aware of their own meta are capable of actively playing along with / against it.

That's just an in general mafia discussion style comment, though.

/off topic discussion

I tend to rely on meta to supplement reads, because otherwise I find myself tunneling constantly. I also have both the inclination and sporadic bursts of free time required to read a large number of games, though not the consistent free time to play in many at a time (hence, geriatric). Meta is not the focus of my scumhunting, nor even my strongest tool in mafia (I'm a gametheory player at heart), but it is a tool that can and should be used to supplement your other tools.

tl;dr I agree completely with your statement and feel you've missed the thrust of my argument about Ari.

/return to relevancy

Summation of my case from his understanding.

Incorrect on several levels, but adequate. I will address my actual case in an attempt at clarification later, as I mentioned to Korts earlier.

Regarding Luca putting words in other people's mouth thing, I suppose the more correct wording would be "responding to questions addressed to other people and saying the answers were ~obvious~" - I am typically suspect of calling things obvious (especially when I feel they're not) when it comes to other people's reasoning. It's not saying that it's what they're trying to say, but this post as well as the one below it are mostly along the lines of "they're clearly doing A" - others may read it differently, but that's the feel I get from it. Korts may be wording things better than me about it.

I don't see anything suspect about not putting people at L-1, so commentary from Jingle saying keychain is suspect for that I disagree with - I also am generally finding keychain townish at the moment aside from that. Similarly have town-leaning reads on Korts and insanity.

I'd appreciate an expansion on the Korts read, if one is available to be had.

Spoiler: Ray Follow Up

You've made a lot more slight comprehension errors than I'd normally expect from you. How closely would you say you're reading the thread?
Do you have any particularly strong reads at this time? I see a few weak ones, but nothing strong. If not, do you have any particular reasons behind that?

Spoiler: Hopkirk

First, thanks for replacing in! It's good to see you again, though it has been years.

I feel like I should try and look scummy so Jingle metadives me and I can learn something. He seems to have a lot of time there.

Request acknowledged. I will probably meta you naturally at some point during the game, given the lack of nightkills, but if nothing else and assuming you mean this remind me in the postgame and I'll do a thorough analysis for you.

The rest of 120 is , but I don't have the time today to try and wrap my head around the why behind the feeling.

As far as activity, Ray is right about the holidays, but I doubt we'll ever be much more active collectively than me and Korts were for the peak activity from this game. I'd expect to see one or two real content posts per person per day, with more in times of heated argument. Remember, the 10 post bit is a limit, not a guideline.

[Lord Gurgi]

Day One continues. Five to lynch.

Vote Count

Hopkirk

[8 Posts] (2) -

insanity018, Keychain

Aristophanes

[9 Posts] (2) -

RayFrost, Hopkirk

Korts

[8 Posts] (1) -

Luca Blight

Jingle

[9 Posts] (1) -

xRECKONERx

RayFrost

[8 Posts] (1) -

Jingle

Luca Blight

[10 Posts] (1) -

Korts

xRECKONERx

[9 Posts] (0) -

None

Keychain

[10 Posts] (0) -

None

insanity018

[7 Posts] (0) -

None

None

(1) -

Aristophanes

Current Deadline:

None.

Impending Prods

None

Post Count Refresh:

(expired on 2018-01-07 00:00:01).

It has been brought to my attention that Luca Blight is still V/LA. My bad.

[RayFrost]

I'd appreciate an expansion on the Korts read, if one is available to be had.

You've made a lot more slight comprehension errors than I'd normally expect from you. How closely would you say you're reading the thread?
Do you have any particularly strong reads at this time? I see a few weak ones, but nothing strong. If not, do you have any particular reasons behind that?

I liked Korts' initial posting and don't see anything particularly wrong with his current posting (as in it's neutral). Ergo, town-leaning.

I'm reading close enough to post what I'm posting. I'm not the only one having comprehension errors re: your case, so I'd say the lack of clarity is on your side not mine?

And I don't recall having much of a history of Very Good Comprehension in general if there's a lot of other things I'm missing. My most recent history was almost entirely me being told I'm wrong about everything by the other players in the game. Further history delving doesn't show a lot of Understanding And Empathy. I say things are how I see them to be.

My strongest read at the moment is the scumread I have on Aristophanes, along with the scumread I had on CultOfAthena's playerslot (which I've put on hold pending review).

Reason: there is not as of yet enough content for me to feel I have a stronger grasp on anything else I've stated. I am thinking about things, but not all of my thoughts have a place in this thread at this point in time.

[Jingle]

As of this point in the game, I have two fairly strong town reads, 3 fairly strong scumreads, and 2 leans scum reads.

At this point, the strong town reads were Reck and insanity, I had a slight townlean on CoA (Now hopkirk), slight scumreads on Ari and Key.

Korts and Luca were both fairly strong scumreads (that haven't really changed much, no matter how much I want to townread Korts on playstyle) that I've already gone into. Should anyone want a reasoned read as of post 69, let me know and I'll go back and find the points in favor/ against that person. Since that time, I have had my reads on CoA and Key both move towards null. Ari should be rather obvious.

Ray, on the other hand, I have not gone into.

I dislike the specificity of what Jingle calls goodposting as it seems to revolve around opinions that match his own.

This, in reference to my post 28, shows a clear lack of understanding of what I'm referring to. He accuses me of just trying to say people who agree with me are making good posts, which is not only patently untrue but displays a clear lack of knowledge of what I was calling goodposting. In the same post, he sheeps the language (putting things in my mouth) I used in post 28 with regards to Luca, expanding it to apply to myself. Clearly, he has put some thought into post 28, yet not enough to read the posts mentioned in it to see half of them literally talking about disagreeing with me. I'm also not a fan of his response to CoA's Key vote. It reads more like someone looking for a reason to scumread someone than someone looking for motivation.

The concept that 18 is scummy because she should be doing more at that point of the game is at the very least weak, and comes across as disingenuous to me. Saying there was no point to voting someone while asking them a question on page one is incredibly bleh. Whether CoA's activity after that is scum motivated is up for debate, but that at least comes as faking a reason to call someone scummy, which is, incidentally, exactly what Ray claims was scummy about 18. His recent posting is better, but still not enough to dissolve the scumread.

Btw, the criteria for goodposting in those posts was that the players in question were probing multiple people, as opposed to focusing in on one person. This setup highly incentivizes scum to avoid bussing, to tunnel on individual players, and to avoid associative tells both with their partners and with town. Town, on the other hand, should attempt to interact with as many people as they possibly can. And, by stating this outright, I'm making this tell completely useless for the rest of the game.

Spoiler: Aristophanes Case, Redux

This time, I'm going to ignore the evidence, in order to focus on the actual behavior that was scummy, since that seems to be the place where everyone's comprehension gets messed up.

I would actually be far more likely to do this as scum simply because it is an unlikely play btw. Doesn't really matter much to discussion, but I think it is an interesting note.

This post, or rather segment of a post, is inherently scummy because it is a statement of I would do behavior A as scum. I am not doing behavior A here.

Clearly, the implication is that we should be townreading him. It's an aside, meant to be unobtrusive and go under the radar, but the clear scum motivation is present. It is also provably a lie, meaning it is incredibly unlikely that it was unintentional that he was looking for the towncred here, pointing even further to scum motivation.

When asked about evidence, he shifted the argument. He claimed that the particular instance I found was nonrepresentative, and then twisted it around to point to why he doesn't personally lolhammer, though he did in that game. He didn't say "Oh, I guess I was wrong." He didn't withdraw the statement. He didn't reevaluate his response. Any of these would point to a genuine misunderstanding of his meta. Any of these would have given me cause to doubt my reasoning leading to Ari is scum. Instead, he tried to change the focus.

When confronted with evidence, he shifts the argument. He assigns a set of conditions to the behavior, getting more specific rather than less about the circumstances in which he would vote L-1 and focusing harder on the attempt to shift the argument to actually lolhammering. He says that the game I referenced is also an exception to the other bit of self meta he provided, as though that would excuse the lie. In short, every single piece of 88 is designed to say that the evidence I have doesn't really matter.

After further evidence, he at first throws his hands up in the air and gives up saying simply that he isn't scum. But then, with very little prompting, he comes back to claim that I'm pushing a narrative and that my posting is "convenient" (literally the only word that I can see that being.)

tl;dr It isn't the meta that makes him scum. It's the lie and the reactions. And not even that he lied, but HOW he lied.

FWIW, his recent behavior is also exactly how scum Ari should play this too. Town should realize that at this point they will eventually be lynched and put their effort into getting information into the thread. If he were town, he'd know that when he flips green we'll have a reason to listen closely to anything he had to say. Instead, he's clammed up, not talking to anybody or making any kind of associative tells, which is exactly what scum who know they CAN'T make it to the endgame should do in this situation.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have one more thing to post before day's end. I've been working on an associative tell chart, but I don't want to let the information out prematurely to avoid manipulation by scum. I want to post that chart (or more likely a list of conclusions so I don't have to deal with formatting it) before day end, so please no L-1 votes on Ari until we're ready for the hammer. I find him selfhammering at this point to be very likely.

[Korts]

so please no L-1 votes on Ari until we're ready for the hammer. I find him selfhammering at this point to be very likely.

Aw man, I was on board until your last sentence. Why do you keep getting ahead of yourself?

[Keychain]

Welcome Hopkirk!

@Jingle 129: The redux is very much appreciated - I think I understand better what you're getting at.

Why would Ari as scum knowingly lie about his meta? It seems to me that lack of awareness of his own play is not alignment indicative. Or am I still missing the point somewhere?


So I read Korts's posts!
I'm inclined towards a townread there right now - I consider general straightforwardness and frustration with overcomplication rarer from scum who already know what's up, and I get a very similar reaction to Jingle so I see where he's coming from there.
However at the same time there's quite a few words in his posts such as 59 and 76 which appear to just be the game summarised. Summarising as content is easy to manufacture as scum, far easier than analysis, and in particular the large amount of notes in 76 do not seem to translate to a large amount of meat in the reads section, so the entire act of including the summary feels purposeless and for show.

Spoiler: made me laugh

Oh, please. I took my vote off someone I didn't want it on. When I figure out who I want it on, I place it there, like I have. There is no deadline, there is no rush. Settle down.

I think this could very well be my favourite thing anyone has said in this game.

[Hopkirk]

@Insanity: As far as I’m aware, CoA was new to both the site and geriatric ruleset. If they weren’t then nobody seems to have commented on it. I don’t think it’s unbelievable, or even unlikely that a new player would ask ‘empty’ questions on pages one or two. Someone who played typical games would do that since it would normally be RVS, so it should be expected from someone who hasn’t played geriatric before. I’d understand if that was just something to push CoA, but you’re still treating it as significant, which is what I’m not liking. I agree the questions were pretty empty. I fail to see why that’s more likely to come from scum than town given the context.
Likewise, I could see CoA being confused by heavy terminology/theory use. Complicates understanding of gamestate for them, so it’d be hard to get reads. Consequently, wants to simplify it from their perspective.
Lack of reads follows and is probably the simplest explination- a new player struggled to understand a complex looking game, found it increasingly difficult to continue engaging/develop reads, and subbed out as a result. That could come from town or scum, so I read it as null.

I was strongly leaning towards putting my vote on Aristophanes before Jingle made any points on meta. Jingle’s meta points didn’t really increase my scumread. For one thing, not posting in the dead thread to complain doesn’t mean you’re not annoyed. Anyone would be annoyed there, so not specifically commenting doesn’t mean anything. I might not have got the point Jingle was trying to make fully though.
What I didn’t like was Ari’s reactions.

90- Attempting casual tone, minor ATE.
91- Questioning a significant point Jingle made. Suggests Ari made 90 without fully understanding/reading what Jingle was saying. 90 seems odder tone-wise in that context.
93- Jingle is now a scumread for convenient conclusions. Third reaction to the post, seems weird.
95- Changes topic.
The tone and development from post to post in the series doesn’t flow in a legitimate looking manner.

@Ray: Given you say you’re reviewing my slot, was your lack of commenting on what I’d said intentional (waiting to see more first) or because you didn’t have anything to comment on?

Want to look at Key again after I’ve engaged a bit with my current scumreads.

[Jingle]

Aw man, I was on board until your last sentence. Why do you keep getting ahead of yourself?

Do you disagree that Ari is scum, that I should be confident in this read, that Ari as scum would selfhammer at this point, or that Ari as scum would use the vengekill on me at this point?

Why would Ari as scum knowingly lie about his meta? It seems to me that lack of awareness of his own play is not alignment indicative. Or am I still missing the point somewhere?

Simply, because it was a fairly safe lie to make. Not only was it an easy grab at towncred and unlikely to be called out, but a casual meta dive by someone who was just looking for broad strokes likely wouldn't even catch it. By the time it became apparent I was going to scrutinize the behavior, he'd already committed to it. The meta evidence I provided is pretty much all about why he would be unlikely to be aware of the shift in his meta. For reiteration's sake, the issue came up in one way or another in his last five games. Every single one of his last five games. And he had enough self awareness in the most recent to provide a wildly different account of when he would or wouldn't drop an L-1 vote. The odds that he's mistaken or that his meta shifted without his awareness are vanishingly low.

Furthermore, there is no reason for him to lie in this way as town.

[Luca Blight]

You have conveniently failed to address the biggest indicator: undermining my questions. My reading of everything else comes from that.

I was elaborating on why I believed them to be superficial/pointless.

Back from V/LA now but still pressed for time. Will catch-up in a bit.

[Luca Blight]

Man, I was really enjoying this game but the New Year break has really killed my motivation/enthusiasm to play Mafia. I think I need to take another extended hiatus from this site

Replace me.

[insanity018]

VOTE: Aristophanes

Jingle, I like you more when you're being open, rather than when you are being more obscure and reaction testing. Previously, you have refused to answer questions about your scumread on RayFrost until Ray posted (eg 96). What were you looking to find (or not find) in Ray's posts?

However at the same time there's quite a few words in his posts such as 59 and 76 which appear to just be the game summarised. Summarising as content is easy to manufacture as scum, far easier than analysis, and in particular the large amount of notes in 76 do not seem to translate to a large amount of meat in the reads section, so the entire act of including the summary feels purposeless and for show.

What from his summary section do you think is not translating into the reads section?

, (post where Hopkirk says everything that CultofAthena did was because she's new)

Okay. I acknowledge that CultofAthena is a newer player. However, looking at her topics, she has played in a few games before so she's not completely new. And that does not change the fact that I don't see her doing anything that feels town.

I would like go back to your 120 and your scummier and townier reads. Aside from Aristophanes, your scumreads seem to come down mostly to people that you disagree with their reads. For example, me because I still scumread CultofAthena, Reck because he concludes opposite reads to you (especially his read on Ari). So, is there anything else in our play that concerns you or is it just because of the different reads? Why is disagreeing with you more likely to come from scum than from town?

[Aristophanes]

Okay, I should have time to Iso ppl tonight (I work better in Isolation sometimes).

Maybe I can provide a readslist and refute these votes. I'm just finding this harder to parse than usual and I apologize for that!

[Hopkirk]

@Jingle: could you specify the key point on Ari’s meta?

@Insanity: I agree that CoA doesn’t jump out as town. There’s not enough to justify that (without meta I guess). However, a.) CoA doesn’t do anything that jumps out to me as scum either, and b.) I can easily see town CoA not doing things that jump out as town- due to being overwhelmed maybe.

In regards to (scum)reads:
Ari: Not about scumreading my slot.
Korts: Nothing to do with voting my slot.
You: Largely about scumreading the slot since you seemed far too committed for the reasoning you were giving. Also seemed to be at the expense of other stuff. Trying to develop this read (as I said, that was all a first impression).
Reckoner: Don’t really follow his thought process. The read on CoA partially plays into it. Probably my weakest read due to lack of material though.

[xRECKONERx]

I actually find that replacement pretty scummy.

Since a couple people have mentioned this... I just think CoA did enough scummy shit that the drop out looks more in response to pressure than most replacements I've seen.

[Lord Gurgi]

A Simple Plan replaces Luca Blight.

[Jingle]

Welcome, ASP. I know your username, but cannot place it at the moment. I apologize if our prior interactions warrant a more personalized greeting.

@Jingle: could you specify the key point on Ari’s meta?

Mostly, the meta is evidence that he lied about his meta in this game. His last five games ALL have situations directly contradicting his claimed meta in this game. The way and reason he brought up the meta itself is what makes him scum. Basically, the meta is how I know he's lying. The lie is what makes him scum.

I actually find that replacement pretty scummy.

Since a couple people have mentioned this... I just think CoA did enough scummy shit that the drop out looks more in response to pressure than most replacements I've seen.

This is circular logic.

Jingle, I like you more when you're being open, rather than when you are being more obscure and reaction testing. Previously, you have refused to answer questions about your scumread on RayFrost until Ray posted (eg 96). What were you looking to find (or not find) in Ray's posts?

I very rarely look to get a specific reaction, but I'll do my best to answer in broad strokes. I wanted him to know I suspected him, but not what for. I wanted to see if he would review and change positions without prompting, whether he would continue skimming the thread, who he would push if left alone, how he would respond to the slight pressure he was under, whether he would follow up on 50, and whether he would go back over old material without prompting. I was also fairly curious to see if anyone would jump to push him or rush to his defense, although I haven't noticed any of that.

Suffice to say, 119 and 128 are both pretty uninspiring, and he remains a strong scumread.

[Aristophanes]

Mostly, the meta is evidence that he lied about his meta in this game. His last five games ALL have situations directly contradicting his claimed meta in this game. The way and reason he brought up the meta itself is what makes him scum. Basically, the meta is how I know he's lying. The lie is what makes him scum.

Why would I do this, unprompted, if I were scum? You make literally no sense here!

[Korts]

Do you disagree that Ari is scum, that I should be confident in this read, that Ari as scum would selfhammer at this point, or that Ari as scum would use the vengekill on me at this point?

I have no issue with your case or the strength of your read. I don't really see the argument for a self-hammer, and have no opinion on the vengekill.

My problem is with you acting like it is a given that the town will follow your Ari case, and are already giving warnings about L-1 before a wagon of any kind has developed. I can't decide if that is just hubris, some sort of LAMIST play, or something else.

[Hopkirk]

Understand Jingle's point on Ari/meta now. Want to lynch him even more.

I actually find that replacement pretty scummy.

Since a couple people have mentioned this... I just think CoA did enough scummy shit that the drop out looks more in response to pressure than most replacements I've seen.

Could you respond to my thoughts on that and/or point out the scummy shit.

Do you disagree that Ari is scum, that I should be confident in this read, that Ari as scum would selfhammer at this point, or that Ari as scum would use the vengekill on me at this point?

I have no issue with your case or the strength of your read. I don't really see the argument for a self-hammer, and have no opinion on the vengekill.

My problem is with you acting like it is a given that the town will follow your Ari case, and are already giving warnings about L-1 before a wagon of any kind has developed. I can't decide if that is just hubris, some sort of LAMIST play, or something else.

Given scum have daytalk, I also don't really see why a self-hammer is a danger.

[Keychain]

However at the same time there's quite a few words in his posts such as 59 and 76 which appear to just be the game summarised. Summarising as content is easy to manufacture as scum, far easier than analysis, and in particular the large amount of notes in 76 do not seem to translate to a large amount of meat in the reads section, so the entire act of including the summary feels purposeless and for show.

What from his summary section do you think is not translating into the reads section?

For example, he talks a lot about Jingle in his summary, but his read is apparently distilled down to "overdone but genuine". He doesn't really link it to all the things he noted such as Jingle's dislike of me not voting him, and the "playing coy" and "baiting" he mentions later in the summary. Despite what he says on Athena and her actions, his read is "I don't have a reliable read. Hoping that changes." I don't see what the point in including the summary is if it's not backing up the reads.

I actually find that replacement pretty scummy.

Since a couple people have mentioned this... I just think CoA did enough scummy shit that the drop out looks more in response to pressure than most replacements I've seen.

This is circular logic.

Can you explain this further? If someone in a certain position acts in a way you would expect from scum in that position, why is scumreading them for that circular logic?

[xRECKONERx]

Could you respond to my thoughts on that and/or point out the scummy shit.

Which thoughts, specifically?

[Hopkirk]

Could you respond to my thoughts on that and/or point out the scummy shit.

Which thoughts, specifically?

132

The parts addressed to Insanity are in regard to CoA,

[Korts]

I don't see what the point in including the summary is if it's not backing up the reads.

The point is for me to take notes while I'm rereading. Not everything I note is immediately alignment relevant.

[Keychain]

So in a kind of "thinking out loud" kind of way? The impression I was getting was that it

looked

useful but didn't seem to follow through to

being

useful. Like padding.

Also I forgot to say - bye Luca, welcome ASP!