Micro 768: Geriatric Grey Flag Nightless - Game Over

[Korts]

Yeah, pretty much. I wasn't particularly concerned about being (or even looking) useful, I was just logging my thoughts as they came up.

[Jingle]

Mostly, the meta is evidence that he lied about his meta in this game. His last five games ALL have situations directly contradicting his claimed meta in this game. The way and reason he brought up the meta itself is what makes him scum. Basically, the meta is how I know he's lying. The lie is what makes him scum.

Why would I do this, unprompted, if I were scum? You make literally no sense here!

133

This continues to not be how town reacts to the accusations, or the incredibly unsubtle attempts to get him to get him to do anything resembling scumhunting, FWIW.

Can you explain this further? If someone in a certain position acts in a way you would expect from scum in that position, why is scumreading them for that circular logic?

That is not the circular logic. Reck in essence said that the replace out is scummy because the slot was scummy in the first place. That's not a reason for the replacement itself to be scummy, but rather a read on the slot pre replacement. I asked why he said the replacement itself was scummy. If it's unclear, I'd appreciate a follow up here.

Given scum have daytalk, I also don't really see why a self-hammer is a danger.

This is... wow.

I

have things I want to say before the lynch happens, because I'm fairly certain I'm going to be the vengekill. That has absolutely nothing to with scum having daychat. Why would a selfhammer be more likely if scum didn't have daychat?

I can't decide if that is just hubris

Given that the wagon is at L-2 without me being on it, I'm gonna go ahead and rule out "just hubris" as an option. The discussion here is valuable in my opinion. Asking for people to keep him out of selfhammer range isn't arrogance, it's foresight.

[insanity018]

In regards to (scum)reads:
Ari: Not about scumreading my slot.
Korts: Nothing to do with voting my slot.
You: Largely about scumreading the slot since you seemed far too committed for the reasoning you were giving. Also seemed to be at the expense of other stuff. Trying to develop this read (as I said, that was all a first impression).
Reckoner: Don’t really follow his thought process. The read on CoA partially plays into it. Probably my weakest read due to lack of material though.

I didn't say that your scumreads are people who scumread your slot. But your scumreads are people that you disagree with.

Spoiler: Extracts from Hopkirk's 120

Insanity in 36/8 on Athena is a bad push. Reads as pushing an obvious newbie for typical newbie behaviour. Response in 52 after Athena responds is on a minor thing and trying to make conflict. Doesn’t read as a natural extension.

Still focused on a bad read

at the expense of anything useful.

Korts feels a bit calculated casual. Also at times (76 especially) feels uncaring towards developing reads. Commentary but with stances you could say I guess.

Don’t really like the reads either though.

Throughout I get a general sense of saying a lot but not doing a lot.

Reckoner in 55-

concludes opposite of me. Don’t like the Ari townread in particular.

What do you not follow about Reck's thought process?

Given scum have daytalk, I also don't really see why a self-hammer is a danger.

How would daytalk affect whether or not somebody self-hammers? I notice that Jingle's pointed out the same thing just above my post.

For example, he talks a lot about Jingle in his summary, but his read is apparently distilled down to "overdone but genuine". He doesn't really link it to all the things he noted such as Jingle's dislike of me not voting him, and the "playing coy" and "baiting" he mentions later in the summary. Despite what he says on Athena and her actions, his read is "I don't have a reliable read. Hoping that changes." I don't see what the point in including the summary is if it's not backing up the reads.

That is an interesting spot.

@Korts

, in 76, you mention, among other things, that you felt Jingle is playing 'in a very weird and unsettling way to me'. So, why do you later conclude in your reads summary that Jingle's intent seems genuine (or his purpose seemed genuine in 115)?

[Aristophanes]

I lied ab9ut catching up. Drunk, but off tomorrow.

I'll do things then

[Korts]

@Korts

, in 76, you mention, among other things, that you felt Jingle is playing 'in a very weird and unsettling way to me'. So, why do you later conclude in your reads summary that Jingle's intent seems genuine (or his purpose seemed genuine in 115)?

Like I said before, I didn't reread my notes when I compiled my reads, and Jingle had a lot of good will left over in my mind from helping the game get going. When I clarified the "genuineness" in 115, I did not call his purpose genuine again. At that point, I realized that his visible purposefulness did not translate to any indication of alignment.

[A Simple Plan]

Hoping to do a full catch-up in the near future; I kinda like the Ari case from what I have read (ISO + Jingle's summed up case a couple pages ago), but I don't want to drop a vote because I've no idea where we're actually at as far as a wagon.

[Hopkirk]

Daytalk reduced lets them coordinate bussing a lot better. I assumed impact on associations was the impact of self-hammer. Didn’t think about them self-hammering to silence you, though I'm not 100% they would kill you.

@Insanity: Korts is approach to his reads, not the reads themself. You are the only one due to a specific read, and that's because you seem(ed) overly focused on the slot despite that seeming odd.

Regarding Reckless:
Jingle being his top scumread doesn’t really follow based on 20/21. Jingle was a RVS vote when made, and 20 sounded like he didn’t scumread Jingle. Based on 20, not switching to CoA in 21 seemed strange.

From 55

I didn’t get the townread on insanity. I didn’t like her by this time due to the unjustified looking push on CoA. If Insanity was his top townread here then I don’t follow why he’s going after Jingle instead of joining her on CoA. Overall, I got the impression here he was trying to buddy a bit with insanity who had Reckless as town and Jingle as suspicious. Also, this would make Insanity more likely town if Reckless flipped scum since it seems less likely to occur between partners.

The scumread on Jingles seems fairly unjustified. The point about Jingle could be a good reason, but on the other hand I don’t really see why scum Jingle benefits from doing it. Reckoner doesn’t show that either. Mainly given the context that Reckoner makes absolutely no attempt to follow up on it after that post. Right now I’m feeling he’s waiting to see which way the wind blows on Ari.

I didn’t really like Ari by that point and the townread Recknoer gives doesn’t seem good- just that Ari was close to him in reads but he was cautious.
Doesn’t push at the null people there, or much later.

[xRECKONERx]

Sorry about this, but I'm

V/LA for Survivormeet until the 18th

.

[RayFrost]

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

[RayFrost]

Also not a fan of reck's only recent content being "this person is scummy and so them replacing out is also suspect" - hopefully he has more to offer when he's back from HAVING FUN WITHOUT US.

[Jingle]

I am here, but still not capable of posting anything meaningful today.

[Korts]

I have been mulling over the Ari case, and I'm on board. I'm not completely comfortable with Jingle's... attitude, I guess? But the case is compelling, and Ari's response has not been satisfactory.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Korts]

Oh yeah, that's L-1.

Let's see if the self-hammer scare is justified.

[Jingle]

Associatives incoming.

[Jingle]

Korts- Likely not scum with Luca or reck slots. Slightly higher than normal chance with Key and Ray, needs to be looked into.
xRECKONERx- Likely not scum with korts, probably not scum from early ties to ari.
RayFrost- Decent scumpartner to most of thread. Look here closely. Not Scum with ASP.
Aristophanes-
Hopkirk- Probably not scum with Ray, Key, Insanity. Ray is based on the presumption of CoA being newbie, not alt. Meta worth looking at here.
A Simple Plan- Not scum with Korts, Ray.
Keychain- not scum with insanity, probs not scum with CoA.
insanity018- If scum, one of luca/korts likely scum. Her CoA wagon came at a point where any scum other than a buddy of one of them (or me I guess) has no impetus to start a new wagon. Not scum with CoA or Key.

I'd explain more, but I really don't have the time to post more today. IF Ari hasn't self voted, I'll be around to answer specifics and stuff this weekend. (probably Sunday)

[insanity018]

Ari has been posting around the site, but still refuses to contribute anything here.

I lied ab9ut catching up. Drunk, but off tomorrow.

I'll do things then

Jingle, why do you rule out RayFrost being scum with ASP? True, Ray votes CultofAthena as an RVS early and then stays voting her, but I didn't feel that Ray was pressuring Athena much or genuinely trying to get her lynched.

[Aristophanes]

Oh yeah, that's L-1.

Let's see if the self-hammer scare is justified.

I'm not gonna do that, don't worry!

Ari has been posting around the site, but still refuses to contribute anything here.

I seem to have little motivation for this game in particular and I don't exactly know why. Every time I come here I just stop feeling like playing and check another thread instead!

[Aristophanes]

I still think the case on me is bull though.

[Keychain]

Ari has been posting around the site, but still refuses to contribute anything here.

I seem to have little motivation for this game in particular and I don't exactly know why. Every time I come here I just stop feeling like playing and check another thread instead!

Well that's no good!

I still think the case on me is bull though.

How do you feel about the votes on you and the players who placed them? For reference that's RayFrost, Hopkirk, insanity and Korts. You've only really mentioned Jingle, but he's not even on your wagon, he's just pushing it.

Spoiler: Some of Jingle's case

When asked about evidence, he shifted the argument. He claimed that the particular instance I found was nonrepresentative, and then twisted it around to point to why he doesn't personally lolhammer, though he did in that game. He didn't say "Oh, I guess I was wrong." He didn't withdraw the statement. He didn't reevaluate his response. Any of these would point to a genuine misunderstanding of his meta. Any of these would have given me cause to doubt my reasoning leading to Ari is scum. Instead, he tried to change the focus.

When confronted with evidence, he shifts the argument. He assigns a set of conditions to the behavior, getting more specific rather than less about the circumstances in which he would vote L-1 and focusing harder on the attempt to shift the argument to actually lolhammering. He says that the game I referenced is also an exception to the other bit of self meta he provided, as though that would excuse the lie. In short, every single piece of 88 is designed to say that the evidence I have doesn't really matter.

After further evidence, he at first throws his hands up in the air and gives up saying simply that he isn't scum. But then, with very little prompting, he comes back to claim that I'm pushing a narrative and that my posting is "convenient" (literally the only word that I can see that being.)

tl;dr It isn't the meta that makes him scum. It's the lie and the reactions. And not even that he lied, but HOW he lied.

The above is the most convincing part of Jingle's case in my opinion. It would help to hear your side on why you reacted the way you did.

[Aristophanes]

Looking into these posts. Tha ks so much foe compiling them! <3

[Aristophanes]

Just gonna start with saying I know jingle wants me to react to the vote on me in some way, but this is the limit of what I can say in response to it. "Okay."

What the hell is LAMIST? I've seen it used several times now and can't for the life of me figure out what it's supposed to stand for.

For other Jingle related things: I really dislike using meta to describe / explain everything, including your own play. While there's a certain amount of influence meta should have on your reads, it definitely shouldn't be

the

thing you rely on. People change. How they think changes. Situations and circumstances being different will change how they behave. It's not as cut and dry as "they were like this before so they will be like this again in this situation." In no small part because the situation is not exactly the same. Also, people who are aware of their own meta are capable of actively playing along with / against it.

That's just an in general mafia discussion style comment, though.

As for the Aristophanes case: I think Jingle raises a good point about how Aristophanes is handling the self-meta stuff. I don't think the original l-1 vote argument is worthwhile, though I do feel the following discussion had merit. My short-version understanding of the meta stuff is Jingle saying "ari is suspect for not putting the l-1 vote" with ari saying "no, I don't do that stuff" with Jingle saying "aha! but you do! look at these games" to which Ari responds "hmmm I see I have done this thing but those situations were different" leading to Jingle saying "I have caught you saying you would/would not do things when you have experience doing/not doing those exact things!" and having Ari respond with "well I can't make you think you're wrong on this"

While the original point from Jingle is horribly weak (Aristophanes didn't put someone at L-1! Scum!), I do feel that how Aristophanes handled the rest of it is suspect. This is more so in light of the rest of his posting. He's put more effort into defending himself from Jingle than he has in contributing anything else in the thread so far. His most recent posting about his actual reads before Jingle-stuff was "I have reads forming but nothing to say about them" - which is the equivalent to saying nothing at all. Anyone can say they have thoughts. What

are

the thoughts? The most clearly worded thought processes are self-defense against Jingle and agreeing with someone attacking his attacker but then saying it's gut.

Regarding Luca putting words in other people's mouth thing, I suppose the more correct wording would be "responding to questions addressed to other people and saying the answers were ~obvious~" - I am typically suspect of calling things obvious (especially when I feel they're not) when it comes to other people's reasoning. It's not saying that it's what they're trying to say, but this post as well as the one below it are mostly along the lines of "they're clearly doing A" - others may read it differently, but that's the feel I get from it. Korts may be wording things better than me about it.

I don't see anything suspect about not putting people at L-1, so commentary from Jingle saying keychain is suspect for that I disagree with - I also am generally finding keychain townish at the moment aside from that. Similarly have town-leaning reads on Korts and insanity.

I'm vaguely interested in seeing the final reveal of Jingle's Grand Plan. Withholding judgment until then.

If there's anything else specifically you'd like me to comment on, feel free to ask. I don't have much else to say on the mind.

Pending content from CultOfAthena's replacement and certain other people's postings, I am comfortable doing the following:

UNVOTE: CultOfAthena

VOTE: Aristophanes

On the spoilered case, I thought I was right, I gave you the set of stipulations I believed were true, I then was proven incorrect and gave in to what must be my new meta. I have said this time and time again now.

Also, yes, that was supposed to say "convenient." I think I saw a post that made me believe this and the narrative claim, but I do not remember now I was probably more frustrated at the stupidity of this case than anything.
And I did applaud your efforts in Meta diving me! I know that was a lot of work! I'm just sad it will lead to a mislynch.

[Aristophanes]

Wait wtf wherw is the rest of my post!?

I addressed all the votes and everything!

God dammit!

[Aristophanes]

Fuck.

Oh well.

Uhh, the above was in response to the jingle post keychain spoilered. It has nothing to do with the post quoted.

The post quoted was supposed to be spiilered and my response was to call the vote alright bus the case dumb.

Hopkirk post I fluffed a response to.

Insanity was aight becausr it was a natural progression bit it felt sheepish.

Korts post was okay but the L-1/selfhammer comment feels off to me.

This was all more elegant but I'm pissed I lost it, tired, and just done.

Sorry for multiposting. Had this not fucked up it would have been a single elegant post

[Hopkirk]

I'll be able to properly catch up and post over the weekend, response to one question I can respond to quickly:

Hopkirk, my lack of response to your posting was due to my choice to wait and see what further contributions you made to the thread before placing a judgment.

'I fluffed a response to.': What do you mean by that?
What about the RayFrost vote?

I have no idea who you scumread right now, and I don't like that in this scenario. As far as I can tell:
You like Jingles/Insanity/Reckoner, somewhat like Korts, haven’t mentioned RayFrost or ASP/Luca,
You also imply in one post that you dislike Keychain/CoA, but without making any attempt to push either of them or develop the read, despite it only coming in 48- and even there it’s agreeing with someone instead of mentioning either of them.

[insanity018]

I still think the case on me is bull though.

How do you feel about the votes on you and the players who placed them? For reference that's RayFrost, Hopkirk, insanity and Korts. You've only really mentioned Jingle, but he's not even on your wagon, he's just pushing it.

Keychain, you have commented on Jingle's case but I can't see what your current read of Aristophanes is. What is your read of Aristophanes at the moment?

The post quoted was supposed to be spiilered and my response was to call the vote alright bus the case dumb.

Why do you think RayFrost's vote is alright if you think his case is dumb?