Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Sephiroth]

I don't think lurker wagons are bad but he was 100% not scum. Like IMO UCV isn't a bad lynch there because in late game he's either a liability or a lurker, or both. But it was extremely suspect that people that UCV would flip scum. Thats how I knew Sheep was scum, they had already gone on the record saying this was UCVs meta (which it was). He was like glaringly, painfully town.

[Sephiroth]

If I hadn't been lynched D2 Sheep was going down D3 *shrug*

[Katyusha]

I still don’t understand why you supported the wagon then, which bad emotional understanding aside is why I thought you were scum despite my cold meta read of you

Like if someone is 100% town but a liability I would still stand for them and encourage them to produce content

[Sephiroth]

Thats the thing though. He won't. UCV does whatever he feels like and sometimes thats awesome and wins games and sometimes its shitty and loses games in MYLO. I would rather he be a D1 lynch than a D4 lynch, and I would rather lynch him than a lot of other players I considered roughly null. There was no point in that whole lynch that I was unclear about this being my view on it =/

[Sephiroth]

Also, I would like to stress that I've only seen him be awesome and win a game once.

[Sephiroth]

I still don’t understand why you supported the wagon then, which bad emotional understanding aside is why I thought you were scum despite my cold meta read of you

I think a quick meta dive would've shown you that I don't have a problem policy/lurker lynching D1 and its pretty NAI for me.

[Katyusha]

Idk like if I thought creature was a shit player (I don’t) i’d still never lynch him - deliberately policy lynching a townread just seems anti-wincon to me

\_O_/

pedit: yeah I wasn’t going to do that, I generally only cold meta for difficult reads (like Bu) or if people besides the person says it exists. Doing it cold is too unreliable for me because you miss the finer details of someone’s personality if you aren’t in the game yourself

[Sephiroth]

Fair enough. But I mean, people have different views. I really think lynching UCV D1 if hes prodging and active lurking is going to be a net positive in most games. he either cares about games or doesnt, it was clear he didnt care about this one. Don't believe its anti-wincon in the least, especially considering that lynching scum D1 is relatively rare and pretty difficult

[Sephiroth]

Not trying to tell you how to do your townreading, but I think its important to separate things I would do from things I think other players would do.

[Sephiroth]

I guess I don't have much place to say anything because I lost my cool and helped us lose, but I'm really frustrated with anyone who actively attempts to force someone to post on their own terms arbitrarily, and threatens to out a role as leverage. Like I'm actually a pretty decent town play nowadays, and I think most players in my situation would've felt very similar being attacked like that. HEM wasn't scum hunting, he was just attacking for the sake of attacking even though I had a perfectly reasonable explanation for the way I was posting at the time.

[Hopkirk]

Am I the only one thinking how funny it would be if HEM died and flipped VT?

The talk on HeM's ultimatum reminds me of this.

[Katyusha]

No it’s definitely a good thing to understand where people are coming from and that’s what made the environment in D2 feel like pulling teeth for me to sort in

Being the victim there sucks man

pedit: I mean I think it was scumhunting, he wanted to put you in a position where you were close to death but it was just a horrendously shitty way to go about it.

Like his D1 play was fine and I still hold our D1 was not at all poorly played even if we didn’t get the best possible lynch (like a hopkirk lynch would have been WAY more useful even if it were wrong, a flubber lynch could have netted us scum, serg posting more and getting scumread could have helped, etc.). It’s just the aftermath that lost all of us the game and we all played a part in it

[Mathdino]

If UCV was literally an innocent child, would you lynch him Seph?

I just don't see the point of getting ML bait out of the way D1 instead of later on. Either way, they get lynched.

Like, if UCV staying alive ruins LyLo because he fucks up, it's still on the town for lynching wrong enough times that you even got to LyLo.

Save lurkers for the vigs. Lurker wagons are horrible for VCA.

[Mathdino]

Hopkirk early lynch would instantly lead to Flubberscum yeah. Not sure how we'd get to sheepscum later on though.

From my perspective as an attempted gamesolver, sheep won the game by completely fucking all associations with everyone.

[Firebringer]

MVP sheep

[Sephiroth]

If UCV was literally an innocent child, would you lynch him Seph?

I just don't see the point of getting ML bait out of the way D1 instead of later on. Either way, they get lynched.

Like, if UCV staying alive ruins LyLo because he fucks up, it's still on the town for lynching wrong enough times that you even got to LyLo.

Save lurkers for the vigs. Lurker wagons are horrible for VCA.

There aren't always vigs, and I 1000% disagree with the assessment that lurker wagons are bad for VCA.

Also kind of the point is that a slot that you can't read becomes more and more problematic as the game progresses. If you keep around active players, you have overall a much higher change of having reads and finding scumslips or tells in their posts. If you leave around a lurker to end game its literally just a question mark. So given the choice between lynching a lurker D1 and D3 its a pretty easy choice. Like lynching them early demonstrably increases the chances of making an educated decision at the end of the game.

[Sephiroth]

Like, have an educated lynch when it matters, uneducated lynch when it doesnt matter.

[Sephiroth]

MVP sheep

Sigh. He was obvscum to me =(

[Not_Mafia]

I obviously stand by what I said that I was getting more upset about the ongoing games references than by anything else. Was willing to sacrifice my position this game to preserve the integrity of others. There wasn't any other issue for me.

i think not mafia should probably realize that firebringer is lying – from his perspective, a ub on top of cop/watcher/two vigs should just be ridiculous.

Shit, I should've caught this. This completely explains N_M's reaction to the FB claim.

Yeah it was frustrating not being able to be fully explain, I probably should have claimed earlier

[Katyusha]

One thing I’m glad this ends is the n_m meta tell where if he tries he’s scum

It smelled like bs but math gave a compelling argument as to why my counterexample didn’t work

[Katyusha]

MVP sheep

Sigh. He was obvscum to me =(

I mean


I think if I didn’t meta him i’d have been more critical of his UCV hammer but this was a strong scumgame relative to his others imo

[Mathdino]

I think if I'd been scum explicitly on the lookout for PRs, that would definitely have given it away. Claiming at that point might've helped.

Problem is clearing yourself probably would've just led to a Rem lynch anyway. Hard to pinpoint any point in D3 where any singular townie could've turned this around.

Edit: Meh I was looking for scum on my wagon and I knew N_M meta but not Firebringer meta.

[Mathdino]

One thing I’m glad this ends is the n_m meta tell where if he tries he’s scum

It smelled like bs but math gave a compelling argument as to why my counterexample didn’t work

i mean fuck me

i picked up that tell from cold metaing him a while back

other people apparently used it

and people complain whenever i bitch about N_M not being readable so i was like LETS SEE IF I CAN DO IT

[Flubbernugget]

but scumteam was good

I really don't mean to be a debby downer but town undoubtedly lost this game more than scum won it (yes, I acknowledge I was part of the problem). We started with a poorly advised lynch on lynch bait. My lynch was absurdly bad and the ultimatum, as I've previously covered, is EXTREMELY ANTI-TOWN. The results of that ultimatum were exactly what you would expect. We also had a town PR kill another PR.

Flubber basically lurked through the game, and serg flaked out giving the slot basically a free pass on 90% of the massive thread (which was massive because it was inflated artificially). And you, sheep, I had pegged mid D1.

Town, myself included, lost this game. Hard.

I definitely agree that this is a bigger town loss than scum win, but I wasn't lurking (don't think I got a single prod), and had I not flamed the thread D1, town would have probably been more motivated in subsequent days.

[Flubbernugget]

MVP sheep

Sigh. He was obvscum to me =(

Honestly I didn't understand any of the obvtown reads on sheep but I definetly saw the value in just going with it.