Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Thor665]

Just how many bad assumptions did Thor make to get to scum me?

I personally think zero - but maybe you should describe what they are and we could get a more accurate accounting.
Because if what you wrote below is your list, then I think we have a bit of disagreement about what a "bad assumption" entails.

I read 819 half a dozen times and still don't see how it makes Klick town.

I have explicitly described why I think it makes him town - what part of my explanation is losing you, or are you just generally disagreeing? If just generally disagreeing, could you explain a HWS/Klick connection as you see it?

And he has to assume that Moz is town. Really? The person that most people, including Thor, have voted today.

I wasn't aware that 'most people' voting someone automatically made them scum.
It's strange that mislynches ever happen if this is true
Oh, wait, so it *isn't* true.

I don't understand his reasoning about if I flip scum, Moz must be town. Is that some circular reasoning?

That would be because, as I already said, I don't think scum Moz would have bussed his entire team.

And he doesn't even consider what it means when I do flip town.

That would, pretty self-explanatory, probably be theuniverse where I was voting Moz, and also said I could still flip Moz.
Are you even reading the posts you're complaining about?

I can only think that Thor has set up some kind of bad reaction test. Perhaps to see who will follow him on that really bad vote?? It appears that only EP did. Although Klick unvoted Moz and claimed to have another look last night. Ugh. He voted Moz because RC had followed Moz to the nk. And just now he's unvoting. And when can we expect the detailed look from Klick? Never.

Do you think Klick/Moz/HWS makes sense as the scumteam? How?
Because if not I don't quite follow your issue here.

Beefster claimed to not be following the game. Klick obviously is not. And EP appears to only skim from time to time.

I agree that this game has some added difficulty from people not reading it.
The sad reality is you listed 3 names and, due to the way you're reacting to me, I think we probably need to add your name, and as long as we're complaining let's throw in CoA for her hardcore lurk, and Moz for his meltdown since Phase start and recent lurk.

Now that we've established multiple town players are, by definition, playing anti-town - what other insight can you bring to that snarl? You're not actually saying anything there.

[Flubbernugget]

Who here has an explicit town read on klick?

[Thor665]

Define what you mean by explicit here?
I have a clearly stated one that I consider to be of middling strength.
So if explicitly stated and described - yes.
If explicitly free of doubt - no.

[Thor665]

But, frankly, anyone claiming they have a read that is free of doubt - then they're either lying or are bad at the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am free of doubt I am zen.

[RadiantCowbells]

for starters what do these two games have in common with regards to aristophanes and chara

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74699
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73079

you have a player who as scum hides behind the meta shield of being known for being bad as scum
they are both objectively scummy in both games: I wanted to lynch Ari right when I replaced in and Chara I had as lockscum in spite of meta

they became unlynchable because the people who knew them refused to take my read seriously because they thought they knew better.

people get better as scum. I agree that mozamis has a shit scum game in the past that doesn't mean he'll have a shit scum game forever.

He has managed to in a significant way match his town tone that he hasn't before but he hasn't matched the playstyle, the stupid pushes the scum motivation none of that is characteristic in his town game.
Most importantly there's a complete absence of reconsideration and thoughtfulness that's present in his town game and he's just alternating derptunnel and loud AtE.

I don't want to be unnecessarily critical of your play CoA but you have a long history of incorrectly townreading people with similar playstyles.
On top of that, I get the impression from both this game and just general past history that, possibly because of Huntress? you have little to no respect for my town play
like you even ignored my advice when we were hydraing and it ended up (possibly! I'm not sure where math would have gone otherwise) costing us the game and you still don't take what I say seriously


EP is even worse because I don't understand how in hell you would make the decision that you want to go off of your own reads as opposed to sheep me.
I am probably going to get you lynched if I can't lynch Mozamis because it seems so, so uncharacteristic of you to give as few fucks as you do about my reads.
We have a super long history of me saying who the scum are, you fucking off and ignoring me, and me being right and given how our conversations about mafia have gone since then it's kind of flabbergasting that you're ignoring me and the only real answer I can think of is that you're scum right now, so.

[TesXX]

Prodding maxous

[Maxous]

Oh damn, was 5 mins too slow.
I've no interest in Texcat lynch.

VOTE: Mozamis

Let's get on with this and see what happens

[Thor665]

@Max - Why'd you hop onto Moz now as opposed to earlier? What changed?

[Errantparabola]

Youre exaggerating but fine. I’ll hammer this evening.

[Thor665]

There is definitely an interesting amount of interest in being on this wagon.
Wish RC would talk to me like she's talking to other people.
Makes me feel lonely and unloved.
Much like how I imagine tomorrow will be for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Alright Thor. Don't hammer this evening.

What things would you like me to discuss with you

[Thor665]

Heck, maybe just clear Tex for me, because if Tex is assured town then the Moz=scum case also comes into sharper relief for me.
But complaining that scum can spaz out is not a point that sells me, because, yeah, i agree, they can spaz out, and I'll go further and say nothing about his spaz looks townish and it's why I reacted to it like I did when noting that it wasn't townish.

[Thor665]

I will agree the Max and the EP moves today add to the value of the Moz=scum case.
But, that said, I also think the Tex play today adds to the Tex=scum, and furthermore HWS/Moz/EP still feels kind of wrong to me as a theory team.

[Thor665]

If Moz is scum, then he was being scummy in how he pushed on me.
Does a scum who would do that also coordinate with a buddy to do a day long gentle grow bus to try to hop off to EP the mislynch du jour, hop immediately back when momentum turns, then call me scummy for voting EP only to eventually vote EP.

Here's another question - especially with your stance that Moz is bad scum who, in this game, has gone up a notch.
If he went up a notch it's a very uneven notch where he figured out aggressive bussing and sacrifice plays but not how to parse together a case not built on lies.

[Errantparabola]

Its not like I suddenly think moz is scum because RC called me bad at the game. No one else is getting lynched as long as RC lives and I’m willing to just end it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Its not like I suddenly think moz is scum because RC called me bad at the game. No one else is getting lynched as long as RC lives and I’m willing to just end it.

Please don't take anything personally or think that it represents anything besides me thinking that that post is what gets you from where you are to voting Mozamis.

[Errantparabola]

Dont worry about it. I understand

[Thor665]

Its not like I suddenly think moz is scum because RC called me bad at the game. No one else is getting lynched as long as RC lives and I’m willing to just end it.

Fair enough, I must have forgot that she controlled everyone's votes but yours and mine.


I'm fine with you suspecting Moz.
Heck, I suspect Moz.
What I'm not fine with is your progression and voting habits - and if you think those look townish then you have another think a'comin'.

[texcat]

I read 819 half a dozen times and still don't see how it makes Klick town.

I have explicitly described why I think it makes him town - what part of my explanation is losing you, or are you just generally disagreeing? If just generally disagreeing, could you explain a HWS/Klick connection as you see it?

I don't see that asking RC about his HWS town read makes Klick town. Klick's original reads of HWS were firmly on top of the fence.

HeWhoSwims: I really have no idea how to read him. He seems very level-headed, and a lot of what he's posting is relatively safe and could come from either alignment. I could see him as scum failing to make any false steps, or I could see him as a helpful town member. I think a game day or two will do a lot to influence this read.

I haven't seen very many people give HWS townreads. I'm getting the same impression he's good as scum, which is why I can't place him as a townread right now. He hasn't really done anything scummy though.

Klick could be town asking RC legitimately trying to firm up his read of HWS. Or it could be scum trying to decide whether to start bussing HWS, particularly the part about how few people are giving HWS townreads.

And he has to assume that Moz is town. Really? The person that most people, including Thor, have voted today.

I wasn't aware that 'most people' voting someone automatically made them scum.
It's strange that mislynches ever happen if this is true
Oh, wait, so it *isn't* true.

Nor does it automatically make them town.

I don't understand his reasoning about if I flip scum, Moz must be town. Is that some circular reasoning?

That would be because, as I already said, I don't think scum Moz would have bussed his entire team.

OK.

I can only think that Thor has set up some kind of bad reaction test. Perhaps to see who will follow him on that really bad vote?? It appears that only EP did. Although Klick unvoted Moz and claimed to have another look last night. Ugh. He voted Moz because RC had followed Moz to the nk. And just now he's unvoting. And when can we expect the detailed look from Klick? Never.

Do you think Klick/Moz/HWS makes sense as the scumteam? How?
Because if not I don't quite follow your issue here.

No. I think Moz is town. I can see a Klick/HWS/X team, or a Beef/HWS/X team.

Beefster claimed to not be following the game. Klick obviously is not. And EP appears to only skim from time to time.

I agree that this game has some added difficulty from people not reading it.
The sad reality is you listed 3 names and, due to the way you're reacting to me, I think we probably need to add your name, and as long as we're complaining let's throw in CoA for her hardcore lurk, and Moz for his meltdown since Phase start and recent lurk.

Now that we've established multiple town players are, by definition, playing anti-town - what other insight can you bring to that snarl? You're not actually saying anything there.

Yeah, not sure where I was going with that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Here's another question - especially with your stance that Moz is bad scum who, in this game, has gone up a notch.
If he went up a notch it's a very uneven notch where he figured out aggressive bussing and sacrifice plays but not how to parse together a case not built on lies.

I don't think it's difficult to overly aggressively bus scumbuddies and I see several holes that read as scum to me in both those reads. Sacrifice plays aren't complicated either.
I think making a decent case on town is harder than just going caution to the wind and throwing the book at everyone everywhere.

[Thor665]

Klick could be town asking RC legitimately trying to firm up his read of HWS. Or it could be scum trying to decide whether to start bussing HWS, particularly the part about how few people are giving HWS townreads.

WHat makes you think the latter is more/equally likely?

Nor does it automatically make them town.

Agreed.
Except I'm not saying it does, whereas you're bringing it up as though it *is* a valid argument for them to be scum.
If it's not a valid town argument, then it is equally not a valid scum argument. A tell is either alignment telling or it is not.
Which are you claiming here?
And if you answer 'not telling' then why bring it up in the first place?
And if you answer 'scumtell' then please explain why you believe that - because it's bollocks.

OK.

OK?
How about - do you agree or disagree with that stance and why?

No. I think Moz is town. I can see a Klick/HWS/X team, or a Beef/HWS/X team.

If you think Moz is town why are you spending time attacking my townread of him as opposed to attacking my scumread of you?
That's scummy as hell.

[RadiantCowbells]

For the record I think Texcat is my backup scumpartner for Mozamis.

I'm going to stop for a second and do some reading.

[Maxous]

Nothing changed Thor, I said earlier I would compromise on Moz to move things along.
I don't particularly scumread him but my ISO re-read undermined my previous townread on him and his behavior around the HWS wagon in particular looks like plausible textbook distancing... i.e. calling your buddy scum but refusing to vote him, then quickly hop onto the counter wagon and *then* vote your buddy once his lynch is inevitable.
I've made my preferred Lynch clear but there's not enough interest so fine

[Thor665]

Here's another question - especially with your stance that Moz is bad scum who, in this game, has gone up a notch.
If he went up a notch it's a very uneven notch where he figured out aggressive bussing and sacrifice plays but not how to parse together a case not built on lies.

I don't think it's difficult to overly aggressively bus scumbuddies and I see several holes that read as scum to me in both those reads. Sacrifice plays aren't complicated either.
I think making a decent case on town is harder than just going caution to the wind and throwing the book at everyone everywhere.

Sacrifice plays *are* complicated insomuch as they require someone to want to sacrifice and for the scum team to assess value from it (though I agree there can be bad sacrifice plays).
I just think that if that's a bus, it was not a planned sacrifice play - which appears to be your stance. I think it was just a bus or an honest scumread.
As just a bus - it looks iffy.

I'll agree making a decent case can be hard, but the question naturally comes 'does he do it as town or not'.
I'll also note that being generally paranoid and attacking everyone is actually a not too shabby town tell in my experience.