Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[GuyInFreezer]

Beef, next time you say something, please at least attempt to read first.
It will save both you and me a headache, or everyone who's reading your posts really.

[Beefster]

Guilty as charged. I tend to miss details like that.

UNVOTE:
for now. I'm not really convinced, but I can see this isn't going anywhere and I probably just look like the crazy bum on the street corner looking for spare change.

Perhaps something can be said about the wagon on me, however.

[Sesq]

stop wasting your time trying to crossexamine gif

literally nothing to be gained

honest as an eagle

VOTE: mikan

[Sesq]

Uhm. No. I'm trying to point out that GIF is doing those things: dismissing my case for terminology and technicalities rather than actually refuting my points. I find that suspicious.

I'm super suspicious of your defending him. Please, tear apart the flaws in my case piece by piece so that I know it's my ideas that are bad.

Why is it that you admire GIF?

I suspect a Sesq/GIF scumteam.

i already did but i'm reiterating my frustration

i like gif because their post style is cool and effective

>YOU MUST BE SCUMTEAM

lol

[Hawk]

@mod Replace me. I'm not finding time to play mafia lately and I don't want to be a burden to the other players.

Sorry guys it was good playing with y'all while I could.

[Mikan Tsumiki]

@mod Replace me. I'm not finding time to play mafia lately and I don't want to be a burden to the other players.

Sorry guys it was good playing with y'all while I could.

I-I think this is the case where you rand wolf and replace the out?
AAAAAAAAAH, sorry if I'm wrong, feel free to cut off all of my skin with a cheese grater.

[Iconeum]

I don't like Beefster case on GiF, mostly because it's based on seeing scum motivation in the softing of doc. I really don't see why a scum would soft doc

with another scum team active

. This would hold up in a normal game, not in multiball.
Also don't agree with many of the other points Beefster makes on Gif.

That said, I don't read Beefster as scum for it and I like the effort he's putting up. UNVOTE: Beefster

[Iconeum]

Liking sesq's intervention in the beefster-gif discussion.
I suppose I'll put GiF on the town-side of my reads here.

[Iconeum]

skitter's 518...

Voting beefster over a vote that beefster made on GiF... While in that same post you attack Gif for the very reason beefster is all over GiF...
Really seems weird. Continues to attack GiF in 520 while skitter's vote is on beefster for doing the same thing.

VOTE: skitter

[Iconeum]

In response to Sky's 473:

I stand by my complaint about hydra's. 2 different opinions are good/2 different opinions coming from the same slot, not so much...
Knowing my own reasons behind NM vote, I was curious why Beefster was voting there. Why would I not question that?

NM was a good place to start, but I conceded that lynching him probably wasn't the best thing to do so I moved on to a better read. Not sure you were criticising me on scumhunting there?

Somewhere in there I agreed that policy lynching NM wasn't best option, I accepted that and moved on. The reasoning behind this is pretty good, so I found the 'late' votes on NM suspicious.

My current opinion on NM/Hawk is that they are useless because inactivity. I read Hawk D1 as scum-sided based on his late NM vote.
NM... I don't know. Does anyone? If he's town he probably won't be NK'd... If he's scum, he's probably not getting NK'd... I hope he's town and will produce something usefull.

[springlullaby]

Hi guys, ego posting from phone and catching up tomorrow.

[Viomi]

@mod Replace me. I'm not finding time to play mafia lately and I don't want to be a burden to the other players.

Sorry guys it was good playing with y'all while I could.

Deadline paused while I replace Hawk.

[Sky_Paladin]

Skitter (responding to 518)

It felt low-hanging-fruit-y on a guy that was like awkwardly newb town and people were just saying he's scummy but never really explained *why* they thought that. Like it felt compromise-y and like people didn't care enough about who got lynched so they just went along with you, which makes me think it was at least partially scum-driven.

My issue with this is what motivation would scum!GiF have to sway the lynch to RedFlavor? The only thing I can really see is if he thought his scum buddy was in danger - at the time, iirc the wagons were Beefster, Hawk, and Not Mafia, roughly in that order. GiF could realistically have chosen any of those three wagons with little resistance to push the wagon to IMO without pushing as hard as he did, and he also could have sat on his hands and done nothing. As highlighted by Icon a little while ago, 'I really don't see why a scum would soft doc with another scum team active.' It doesn't make sense. You're currently voting Beefster so may I presume you are on board with this now?

So this is like weird given that in your initial post you popped in during *twilight* and said as much. Why would you be asking GIF about Kop to try to figure out if you should push RF that day if you knew that the hammer happened already?

Because I responded from my feelings and not from my memory, which as I stated in that same post, I hadn't really been able to focus on the game. My feeling was

there was something weird about Kop

and that was the motive behind what I'd written. I totally expected him to be around in day 2 and I was wondering if I should push there in this day phase. But now he's dead. Yes I accept that what I wrote is not the correct order of events. I only remembered the key points that were important to me (Kop was weird - I asked GiF about it and got shut down - there was a hammer so give up and call it a night) and filled in the blanks retroactively without even looking.

You are suggesting that I came in to the thread, said "Hey guys look at Kop" and then killed him overnight to bring attention to myself because ???.
I also doubt a scum team went "Hey look, let's implicate Sky and push for a mislynch in day 2 zomg" because of the lack of push there today.
I agree the Kop kill was weird, and my post is only weird because Kop also died. Otherwise it's nothing special. If we had Kop here today I'd probably be pushing that slot.

Does the fact that one of your biggest townreads is voting the other bother you?

I don't see where this is happening? GiF/Mikan were my strong townreads at the start of the day - you are in my sort pile, along with Mumble/Spring who I totally forgot was in the game, and Sesq.

Generally my townreads cross-voting is not an issue, because there's usually an associated wall of rage from both posters where I can deduce alignment and either join in or reflect back on the flip later.

Unless it's LYLO, then I'm screwed.

~~

@Skitter

You have kind of pushed both GiF and Beefster this phase; and while you are voting for Beefster, do you have a clear position?

Sesq is next!

[skitter30]

skitter's 518...

Voting beefster over a vote that beefster made on GiF... While in that same post you attack Gif for the very reason beefster is all over GiF...
Really seems weird. Continues to attack GiF in 520 while skitter's vote is on beefster for doing the same thing.

VOTE: skitter

So, I think that wagon composition matters *a lot*, and being on the same wagon as someone I significantly scumread feels wrong. Voting with Beef bothers me more than I like my GIF vote, which kinda implies to me that I scumread Beef more and I ought to voting there.

At the same time, Gif's response to the Red wagon/flip is a little weird. Even if the fact that the Red wagon was essentially a compromise wagon didn't bother him at the time, the fact that he still doesn't really seem concerned by that *even though* Red flipped town isn't really sitting well with me.

Like a non-insignificant portion of that wagon was people just going along with GIF, and the whole thing just felt very complacent-y/compromise-y and like people just did it cuz it was a thing that was happening and they didn't really care about it or what Red actually flipped.

(And I think that Beef's vote was one of the worst)

No?
He was my scumread and I wanted him lynched?
And this game is a multiball so it is totally acceptable and understandable that scum would be on different scum wagon?

Like ... you agree with me that the wagon was kinda compromise-y and that opposing scum might be on it, so why don't you seem to be much concerned about this?

[GuyInFreezer]

Like ... you agree with me that the wagon was kinda compromise-y and that opposing scum might be on it, so why don't you seem to be much concerned about this?

Because I was scumreading RF?
Like all these "concerns" (Oh noes wagon went weird it must be on town etc) you mention doesn't really have the same effect in multiball.

[Sky_Paladin]

Sesq

Sky_Paladin is someone, their posts of a certain type, this someone is a cloudposter.

Sure, that's true. 90% of the time I can only play by reading at work, and then I get home and reply to the things that stood out to me that were interesting to me. I personally prefer this style over people who quote somebody else's entire post and then add their own one-liner at the end ^_~

Responding to 492

Turns out there's only one thing I want to focus on.

the rest of your case is just shitty buzzwords

I'm interested in why you chose to jump in on this post specifically to shit on it. Icon is a big boy/girl and can (and has) respond themselves.

I accept your opinion on hydra's is divergent from mine, but then you dismissed the rest because 'buzzwords' and said that I'm useless except for my vote.

I was also asking Icon to explain his position on NM and his voting/pursuit of other votes on NM. Do you think this is not interesting? Why?

[skitter30]

You're currently voting Beefster so may I presume you are on board with this now?

No, because I don't like the Red wagon, neither yesterday nor how GIF is fine with its lackadaisical composition despite Red flipping town.

I totally expected him to be around in day 2 and I was wondering if I should push there in this day phase.

But a hammer had already happened and he had sporadic activity anyways so I don't really get why you'd think that pushing Kop at that time would be remotely beneficial or like accomplish anything, *especially* if you thought he'd be around tomorrow.

Like, there was a hammer. You popped in *after* that to ask GIF about Kop so that you could decide if you should push him. He was lurking so he probably wouldn't be around before the thread locked anyways. You think he's going to be around the next day. So like why bother to ask just then at all?

Idk it still feels weird, and your entire explanation feels over-explained.

You are suggesting that I came in to the thread, said "Hey guys look at Kop" and then killed him overnight to bring attention to myself because ???.

I have absolutely no idea why you'd do that.

I agree the Kop kill was weird, and my post is only weird because Kop also died. Otherwise it's nothing special.

And yeah, the kill is weird, and without the kill I probably would have blipped over the post, but like that context *is* in fact there, and in light of that context your post becomes weird too; together I think it's something that bears probing.

I don't see where this is happening? GiF/Mikan were my strong townreads at the start of the day

Gif's voting mikan ......

Generally my townreads cross-voting is not an issue, because there's usually an associated wall of rage from both posters where I can deduce alignment and either join in or reflect back on the flip later.

Unless it's LYLO, then I'm screwed.

There has been no accompanying wall of rage and if today we mislynch tomorrow it's 3-2-2 barring no cross-kill. So, does GIF voting mikan bother you?

@Skitter You have kind of pushed both GiF and Beefster this phase; and while you are voting for Beefster, do you have a clear position?

See above.

[skitter30]

Like ... you agree with me that the wagon was kinda compromise-y and that opposing scum might be on it, so why don't you seem to be much concerned about this?

Because I was scumreading RF?
Like all these "concerns" (Oh noes wagon went weird it must be on town etc) you mention doesn't really have the same effect in multiball.

Like the wagon was filled with bad votes. I don't think that the fact that it's multiball means that the bad votes ought to be ignored.

[Sky_Paladin]

There has been no accompanying wall of rage and if today we mislynch tomorrow it's 3-2-2 barring no cross-kill. So, does GIF voting mikan bother you?

They are not cross-voting. GiF's post also makes it clear it's a placeholder vote.

I can see what you are saying often is grounded in reality but, in the same light as my Kop post, I feel like you are trying to twist this away from what is actually happening.

Re: Position on Beefster
Sky

@Skitter You have kind of pushed both GiF and Beefster this phase; and while you are voting for Beefster, do you have a clear position?

Skitter (see above:)

No, because I don't like the Red wagon, neither yesterday nor how GIF is fine with its lackadaisical composition despite Red flipping town.

I can't abide by you voting for Beefster yet criticising the wagon and not really pushing any other angle (other than my Kop post I guess). This doesn't look like the town Skitter I know.

It does look like scum trying to rake up anything that sticks, though.

VOTE: Skitter30

[skitter30]

The wagon was god-awful and I can't believe that I'm the only person who sees that.

LYNCH: RedFlavor (7) - Kop, GuyInFreezer, Not_Mafia, Sesq, Beefster, Hawk, Mikan Tsumiki

It's a town wagon in multiball. Kop flipped green. Are you really trying to discredit the notion that amongst {Gif/NM/Sesq/Beef/Hawk/Mikan} there's likely to be scum?

A good portion of these votes are *really*, *really* bad, and I can pick apart the wagon one by one if you need me to. I think Beef's was the worse, especially since he's like blaming GIF for the wagon even though he participated in it.

(In the one game I played with you I made a huge thing about how gross the screen wagon was so you think that this isn't something town!me does because ...?)

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Beefster

[Beefster]

VOTE: skitter
I can dig this.

[skitter30]

You think I'm scummy because ... ?

You think I'm wrong about the Red wagon because ... ?

You think I'm wrong about your vote because ... ?

[Mikan Tsumiki]

VOTE: skitter
I can dig this.

U-Uh
I k-kinda think you're not attempting to even form reads at this point.
AAAAAH I'm s-sorry!
P-please forgive me!
VOTE: Beef

[Beefster]

I'm sheeping. Bleh.