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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:59 am

Post by DraketheFake »

q21 wrote:You may disagree all you like, but my vote is based on my interpretation of you actions rather than your apparent interpretation of them.


Oh is that how this game is played?
q21, Post 74 wrote:Drake... voting someone, then asking if that someone has a role then calling someone else out for role fishing... in a game that is driving quickly toward insanity that still counts as scummy.


Oh come on. It seems nigh inarguable to me that the first half of my post in question is showing that I can vote for everyone like forbiddan. Realizing that forbiddan and I shared a characteristic, I decided not to leave things up to chance about my predicament of needing to be sought overnight.

And to quibble, your wording here is wrong. I voted for someone (at a stage where I hadn't seriously voted for anyone, and after giving forbiddan my good faith on the Death SK thing), asked that someone if they had a role and then called out THE SAME person for rolefishing. Not the best word choice, perhaps, but the point is I need to be sought and the rest of it should be left in the dark and the exchange makes me doubt that forbiddan is who I'm looking for if she needed clarification.
rokovoj wrote:
DraketheFake wrote:I call it: the privilege of information.
..What?
Hope that answers that.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:52 am

Post by forbiddanlight »

I wouldn't be so sure. All you have to do is say if you need a certain item or not.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:07 pm

Post by Jazzmyn »

ac1983fan wrote:Also, q21, are you just going to vote everyone and keep your vote on them until either they make themselves seem less scummy or somebody else does something more scummy? cause you've pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...
The last sentence looks like an exaggeration to me. Q21 made two random votes early on (for Erratus and Tovarish), and has made two serious votes (for me and ac1983fan). It seems quite a stretch to say that he's 'pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly'.
Remoraid wrote:so what you're saying is that you are unable to help hunt scum? could it be because you're scum?
vote: restfermata
This looks like a twist/warp/stretch/misrep to me. RestFermata said that she is confused, not that she is unable to help hunt scum, and your vote based on your own warp of what she said looks suspicious to me.

@RestFermata: The game
is
confusing re: the vote count issue, but leaving that aside for the moment, what do you think about other players? What is your opinion on the posts and players so far?

@Forbiddanlight: Why are you voting Danchaofan for commenting on your role? It is you who first raised your role with your claim to be a Death SK, and when Drake blatantly rolefished in his post #63 asking if you are a seeker, you didn't call it rolefishing and you responded to Drake with what he, ironically, called rolefishing on YOUR part. Then, you continued to talk about your role, speculated about Drake's role, suggested something about scum/town masons, etc., and yet when Danchaofan commented on your repeated references to your role, you vote him? Do you have any other reasons for voting him or just that?

@Dripping Goofball: What is your opinion on the posts and players so far?

@Drake: Why so many OMGUS votes? (And yeah, I did look them up and count them; 3: Danch, Q21, and CitizenKane)

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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:11 pm

Post by Jazzmyn »

Also, q21, are you just going to vote everyone and keep your vote on them until either they make themselves seem less scummy or somebody else does something more scummy? cause you've pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...[/quote]The last sentence looks like an exaggeration to me. Q21 made two random votes early on (for Erratus and Tovarish), and has made two serious votes (for me and ac1983fan). It seems quite a stretch to say that he's 'pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly'.
Remoraid wrote:so what you're saying is that you are unable to help hunt scum? could it be because you're scum?
vote: restfermata
This looks like a twist/warp/stretch/misrep to me. RestFermata said that she is confused, not that she is unable to help hunt scum, and your vote based on your own warp of what she said looks suspicious to me.

@RestFermata: The game
is
confusing re: the vote count issue, but leaving that aside for the moment, what do you think about other players? What is your opinion on the posts and players so far?

@Forbiddanlight: Why are you voting Danchaofan for commenting on your role? It is you who first raised your role with your claim to be a Death SK, and when Drake blatantly rolefished in his post #63 asking if you are a seeker, you didn't call it rolefishing and you responded to Drake with what he, ironically, called rolefishing on YOUR part. Then, you continued to talk about your role, speculated about Drake's role, suggested something about scum/town masons, etc., and yet when Danchaofan commented on your repeated references to your role, you vote him? Do you have any other reasons for voting him or just that?

@Dripping Goofball: What is your opinion on the posts and players so far?

@Drake: Why so many OMGUS votes? (And yeah, I did look them up and count them; 3: Danch, Q21, and CitizenKane)

Sorry about that.
I had another game open at the same time in which Q21 is also playing and I accidentally posted the struck-out part in this post instead of in that thread.

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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:11 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »


@Forbiddanlight: Why are you voting Danchaofan for commenting on your role? It is you who first raised your role with your claim to be a Death SK, and when Drake blatantly rolefished in his post #63 asking if you are a seeker, you didn't call it rolefishing and you responded to Drake with what he, ironically, called rolefishing on YOUR part. Then, you continued to talk about your role, speculated about Drake's role, suggested something about scum/town masons, etc., and yet when Danchaofan commented on your repeated references to your role, you vote him? Do you have any other reasons for voting him or just that?
Did you not notice where Dancho asked EXPLICITLY why I'm "beating around the bush" with my role? Excuse me if I don't want to reveal every secret. As for the rest, it's explained in the post I voted him.

Drake had a valid claim to asking me about my role, even if it was rolefishing. It's POSSIBLE he seeks me, though I don't necessarily seek him.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:41 pm

Post by rokovoj »

DraketheFake and/or Forbiddenlight: Is the connection the two of you possibly have related from the fact that both of you can vote for as many people as you like?
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:49 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

rokovoj wrote:DraketheFake and/or Forbiddenlight: Is the connection the two of you possibly have related from the fact that both of you can vote for as many people as you like?
...said the guy who sees no use in having everybody give an explicit number of votes they can use.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Post by rokovoj »

Can you just answer the question?

When you asked for everyone to tell how many votes they had, you said this:
Hey everyone: Tell us how many people you are allowed to vote for! I can vote for as many people as I damn well please. So can forbiddan. How about the rest of you? It should be pretty simple to figure out where the vote counts are going wrong if we know for sure who all is allowed to vote for how many people.
..implying that you wanted to know so that we could keep accurate vote counts ourselves instead of relying on the mod. I persist that for this purpose, knowing the number of votes people have is useless. I wasn't aware that you had a separate reason for wanting to know how many votes people had.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:00 pm

Post by forbiddanlight »

DraketheFake and/or Forbiddenlight: Is the connection the two of you possibly have related from the fact that both of you can vote for as many people as you like?
Well, all I know is I have an action at night. It seems pointless. I'm assuming it's not, but it could be. So, unless Drake needs a specific item, then that's probably our only connection.
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TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:08 pm

Post by Remoraid »

there's no misrepresentation or twisting going on here.. restfermata complained about being confused which is pretty scummy.. normally people who are confused ask questions about the things that confused them... then after my vote, she complained about being confused about the vote count after you had just clarified the vote count.. this shows a lack of reading the thread and lack of willing to put in the effort to analyze the responses.. signs of a scum who needs not to do that sort of thing since she knows who scum are.. for further proof review RF's posts and note that that with nearly 6 pages so far in the game, she's yet to contribute, well, anything
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:09 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

Remoraid wrote:for further proof review RF's posts and note that that with nearly 6 pages so far in the game, she's yet to contribute, well, anything
People with three posts in six pages would do well not to accuse other players of not contributing. Especially when their cases are as weak as yours is.
rokovoj wrote:..implying that you wanted to know so that we could keep accurate vote counts ourselves instead of relying on the mod.
I persist that for this purpose, knowing the number of votes people have is useless.
I wasn't aware that you had a separate reason for wanting to know how many votes people had.
But see, you have yet to point out any manner of negative consequence of everyone just saying if they could multi-vote or not, and regardless of my ulterior motives your bolded statement is ridiculous. The amount of space taken up in this game by people idly guessing at what's wrong with the vote counts is sort of staggering, and several players have expressed their confusion over the way that's been going, some to the point of apparent incapacity. If everyone knew for sure how many votes everybody had, then their questions over the vote counts would be fewer, and we could, say, spend more time trying to figure out why you're so deadset against something that has no negative consequence.

And even beside all that, there's the reason you yourself mentioned earlier of avoiding accidental lynches due to not being sure if certain players are allowed to vote for more than one player or not.

And the reason I didn't just answer the question is because the more we talk about this whole situation, the more likely it is that it won't be resolved in a manner that benefits the town, is why.

Oh, and RestFermata: You wouldn't happen to really be a white elephant, would you?
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:13 pm

Post by rokovoj »

Remoraid, if the game goes on for another week or so and RF still hasn't contributed anything, I would be concerned. We've only been playing for a few days, and RF isn't the only one who hasn't said much, so I don't see what the problem is.

Hm. I'm not sure if this is the best thing to do, but what the heck. I can also send items at night, and I can vote for as many people as I like. I can prove the voting thing, but I don't feel like checking who's not in danger of being lynched, and it's not like I would lie about this since it's easy to confirm.


^^^ this was written before DraketheFake posted, but his post doesn't make me want to change anything.

I think the number of people concerned about the vote counts is justified, though at the moment I'm leaning towards the mod is truly bad at vote counts, not that he's purposely screwing them up.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:18 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

rokovoj wrote:I think the number of people concerned about the vote counts is justified, though at the moment I'm leaning towards the mod is truly bad at vote counts, not that he's purposely screwing them up.
Agreed on both counts.




...it just makes me even more confused that you were so resistant. And it doesn't seem like you needed to claim the item-sending ability, since at least two other players have claimed the ability to multi-vote without that common thread.

And your further hesitance to prove it confuses me, because it really shouldn't take a ton of effort to check back and also the fact is that the closest player, yours truly, is still at L-4.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:26 pm

Post by rokovoj »

vote: DrippingGoofball

vote: veerus

vote: Citizen Karne

vote: rokovoj

vote: forbiddanlight

vote: RestFermata

vote: Haschel Cedricson

vote: Jassmyn

vote: q21

vote: farside22

vote: Remoraid


That is everyone but Danchaofan, for whom I'm already voting, and you.
And even beside all that, there's the reason you yourself mentioned earlier of avoiding accidental lynches due to not being sure if certain players are allowed to vote for more than one player or not.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If someone was voting for someone else and had multiple votes, then yes, they could hammer someone without removing their previous vote. Someone without multiple votes could just as easily hammer someone by removing their previous vote.

If anyone had the ability to vote for the same person more than once, I don't think they would freely give this information.

We're also not allowed to lynch multiple people at once by having a multiple-voter vote for two people at L-1 in the same post. (I asked the mod about this in a PM.)
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:34 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

rokovoj wrote:We're also not allowed to lynch multiple people at once by having a multiple-voter vote for two people at L-1 in the same post. (I asked the mod about this in a PM.)
Same here. Great minds and all that.
rokovoj wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I suppose the chances are slim, but knowing how many multi-voters there are improves the ability of players to parse out which multi-votes in the vote count are legit and which are simply mod errors, which at worst can't hurt and at best will prevent somebody from assuming that the vote count is wrong and accidentally hammering (or claiming that as a defense).
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:46 pm

Post by rokovoj »

I would say that if you're not sure about the vote count, you shouldn't be hammering at all until it's certain that the vote count is correct. Originally I had not wanted people to reveal how many votes they had, but I guess you're right that it doesn't help the scum to have this information.

I think this is correct so far.

Can vote everyone: forbiddenlight, DraketheFake, rokovoj

Can vote for one person: veerus

Can't vote anyone: farside22

Unknown: everyone else
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:11 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

rokovoj wrote:I would say that if you're not sure about the vote count, you shouldn't be hammering at all until it's certain that the vote count is correct.
Right. They would be hammering in reality, but they would think they were only putting somebody at L-1 because they assumed one of the votes was a mod error because the voter had more recently voted for a different player. Like I said, slim chance, but also one we need not take.
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:16 am

Post by DrippingGoofball »

@ roko

After you unvote, I'll test my own votes if you don't mind.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:07 am

Post by q21 »

I'll go along with the "how many times can you vote" confessions. I can also vote for everyone. And I thought I was special...
"I can't not give mad props to the murderbot 9000 that was q21." - Spyrex, after Scummies Invitational 2010.

You know those times when you wish you could think of something really funny or interesting to say, but just can't?... Yep, this is one of those times.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:24 pm

Post by veerus »

At what point did you realize you weren't? 2 people claiming it wasn't enough?
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:41 pm

Post by farside22 »

FL: one last question. Please check the rules before answering this. Do you have a character name or name you were given for your role?

Now I've looked at my PM I know I have a vote. I want to verify something here so just give me a bit.

vote: Remoraid
vote: RF


RF I don't know why you are confused by the vote counts after all you did play SL's mini game where many votes were involved.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:43 pm

Post by RestFermata »

OK. Here's an update.

Remorald -- I think his comments about me are a stretch. I get lost and confused easily. You can see evidence this in the Large games I've been in, in which the game size was just too much in me. In both of these Large games I was town, so it's not a scummy thing. It was difficult for me to start scumhunting up to that point because I'd mostly seen a bunch of talk about vote counts, multiple votes, and weird role talk from forbiddan and DTF that left me pretty much in the dark. I have never been good at just diving into these sorts of things and picking them apart until things really start to get going, so the issue really is that I wanted to post to let you guys know I was trying not to lurk, but I also needed to be honest and let you know that I hadn't found anything to comment on. I also expressed why.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but I've said this in several games and I'll say it again: stretching things is a necessity to get things out of the random voting stage. So I can understand why Remorald would jump on me for my comment and I don't find it especially scummy. I may find it scummy later if he continues to beat this drum, but at the moment, I think it's good to overreact in order to get the game going. He should eventually be able to admit that he's stretching, however. At the moment it's a nulltell.

Do I think that DTF's votes are OMGUS? I think there's some OMGUS-iness in a few of them. DTF has admitted that. His OMGUS votes seem a little like random/joke votes, do they not? (Danchaofan, Citizen Karne.) I don't as a rule find joke OMGUS scummy, but I kind of wish DTF would take those votes off because I don't think they're necessary anymore. Do I find his OMGUS votes scummy? No. Bad play? Maybe. The rolefishing accusation thing is kind of iffy. I'm not a big fan of that. forbiddanlight 1/3 claimed, then 2/3 claimed. DTF forced her to claim the other third. I don't like that, but the way he went about it doesn't read as particularly scummy to me, I dunno.

DTF, I am not sure what the "White Elephant" thing means. I asked the mod and he said he would not answer that question, and made an evil emoticon at me. I am not a "White Elephant" as far as I know. That does not have any connection to my role that I can imagine, and I have quite the vivid imagination.

One thing I've found so far is a small note of hypocrisy from veerus. When he was confused about the voting system, he attempted to vote for everyone at the same time. (It would only have been necessary to vote for about 3 people to test this, by the way.) Then he voted DTF for voting "pretty much everybody" (fewer people than he attempted to vote!) He'd probably argue that he would have unvoted most people immediately after figuring out that he had multiple votes had it worked, but I don't really buy it. I see it as just a reason to cast a vote and look useful. (Now I'M the hypocritical one, I know, but hey, at least I'm admitting it!) His last post was another sort of psuedo-scumhunting post that didn't really serve any purpose. Yeah, my case on veerus is a stretch. And that's what it's supposed to be at this point in the game.

Vote: veerus
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:43 pm

Post by RestFermata »

Farside, I replaced out of that game. I couldn't keep up with it.
"Time forks endlessly toward innumerable futures. In one of them I am your enemy." —Jorge Luis Borges
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:29 pm

Post by DraketheFake »

Unvote: Danchaofan

Unvote: q21

Unvote: Citizen Karne

Unvote: Remoraid


So that everyone else can play with their vote.

Rest, I think you make a good point about veerus, although I do like his most recent post about q21's decision to admit he can vote for everyone. It feels a little bit - heck, a lot - like q21 waited for my argument with rokovoj to end so he could tell which way the town's opinion was going to swing on the whole issue, and never issued any kind of opinion on the matter himself or hinted either way. Definitely a bit suspect. And since there are now four (three confirmed*) multi-voters, I can't imagine that all four would be town given how easy it would be to confirm people.

*I know there hasn't been a votecount since rokovoj was confirmed, but he did vote for everyone and if he's lying it shouldn't be too hard to notice unless he gets skittish and unvotes before the mod checks in, in which case: even better
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:29 pm

Post by veerus »

wow.. That's pretty weak.. I voted everybody to TEST not out of confusion. Seems to me you're just throwing up a bunch of mud and seeing what sticks. Well, I'm not buying it. Lucky for you, DTF seems scummier by far, but you're definitely making progress..

fos: RestFermata
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