Mafiascum.net

Hoopla wrote:Vi, can you make an "Outdated" category in the Historical Open Setups section? Just for unpopular setups or setups that are essentially something else, ie; 1-Shot Micro/1-Shot C9 etc.

Done...

I have an idea for an alteration to My Name is Earl. Instead of calling both of the non-PR-named-roles Earl, they could be named based on the PR that they 'replaced' -- probably Nurse and Deputy. This would add to the Earls' claiming power, and reduce the difference in balance between the different scenarios.

The downsides are that mafia can never fakeclaim without being countered and town PR's are confirmed unless countered, which changes the balance and reduces the amount of thought involved in evaluating claimed PR's.

I kinda thought my name is earl was fine as it is. Mafia never being able to fakeclaim is a pretty huge downside for changing the earls. Named townies already have plenty of claiming power.

P.S. also, thumbs up for Paris Mafia. Haven't seen it on a list, it should be there.

Herodotus wrote:I have an idea for an alteration to My Name is Earl. Instead of calling both of the non-PR-named-roles Earl, they could be named based on the PR that they 'replaced' -- probably Nurse and Deputy. This would add to the Earls' claiming power, and reduce the difference in balance between the different scenarios.

The downsides are that mafia can never fakeclaim without being countered and town PR's are confirmed unless countered, which changes the balance and reduces the amount of thought involved in evaluating claimed PR's.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... Subversive

Hoopla wrote:
- 3 of 5 has a good premise, but it'll almost always be unbalanced if the Mafia Roleblocker gets drawn. The best case scenario for town is Cop/Doc vs. Mafia Roleblocker, which has a 45% town winrate - that's fine. But the town has a decent chance of only drawing one PR, or drawing one PR with a Miller. And in most cases, 2:7 with one town PR is a 60-65% scum win. It may be more when scum has a Roleblocker too.

I like this setup, but is can't be approved with its current variables. If others like it too, then we can try and tweak it.

Plus there's a possibility of drawing Miller, VT and Mafia Roleblocker, which would essentially make it 7:2 mountainous with an Earl. Would not like to be town in that scenario.

I'd suggest turning the VT into a Jailkeeper, but then it's not different enough from the newbie setup to have any real purpose in existing. Vig, perhaps? I agree that there's a decent concept in there, but it needs some pretty heavy tweaking.

Trendy & Subversive V1 owns, totally approve it as is (or add two townies and then approve it if you must). V3 is OK too. V2 is not.

Double Cop looks like the most boring follow-the-cop setup ever, even if it is perfectly balanced why would anyone even want to play this. take it to epicmafia.

If PieE7 is not balanced, why would Trendy and Subversive be?

If anything, it seems like a worse deal than PieE7, because you're not guaranteed powerroles that do anything.

Okay, I binned Double Cop, Even/Odd C9, PieE7 and Two of Four.

We just need to decide what to do with SCIENCE, 3 of 5, Trendy and Subversive and Vengeful 7p, then we can move onto the mids.

~~

I'm not especially fond of Trendy and Subversive - I think any 2:5 setup where scum get a Roleblocker is pushing it. The majority of times, the two PR's will essentially be Earls, with an occasional save or investigation. I've played in Version 3 before, and we decided the optimal play was for the Deputy/Nurse to claim D1, to make use of the confirmed townie to narrow the pool, and to prevent scum from being able to go for a 50/50 in lylo with this role. It also served as bait to keep our Cop or Doc alive, as scum couldn't afford to risk shooting for the Cop/Doc, missing and having a confirmed townie PLUS a Cop/doc alive on D2.

I don't know - the setup just seems kind of bland, and that's before any balance issues are dealt with. I think in most cases, it's optimal for a Deputy/Nurse to claim, since they're essentially Earls that PROBABLY won't get to use their power.

For SCIENCE, I'm happy deferring to what most people want. Personally, 2:5:2 sounds better to me, but I have no strong feelings either way on this one.

3 of 5 is a good idea, but I don't think there is any one tweak that automatically fixes the setup. If we were to play around with this setup, it probably wouldn't resemble the original very much. It's probably better to just bin it, and then create a new setup borrowing the idea/format if need be.

I feel kind of meh on 7p Vengeful. I think if Vengefuls start to get run with regularity, most people would want to play in the 5p version.

What if you added two VTs to Trendy and Subversive?

I do not fully remember who came with the setup (I thought it was Hoopla), but I'd like to run that game when I am high on the open game queue.

2 maf
6 town
1 reflexive doc

However, with all the things that are said in this thread, I hardly believe that it will be balanced. Should we add another PR? Like an innocent child or something?

And I disagree binning Two of four, it is a nice setup
EDIT: And Trendy and Subversive is, too. If they ever were in the open queue I would play them. I'd rather have a tweak in them then binning them.

7p vengeful might be balanced, it's just largely inferior to play to the 5p version.

Hoopla wrote:For SCIENCE!

(okay, that was a fix)

I'm happy deferring to what most people want. Personally, 2:5:2 sounds better to me, but I have no strong feelings either way on this one.

Adding two Townies...
There's not much wrong with experimentation .

I feel kind of meh on 7p Vengeful. I think if Vengefuls start to get run with regularity, most people would want to play in the 5p version.

It's worth noting that I don't think 7P Vengeful has been run on this site at all, so nobody really knows what it would be like to play it...?

↑ Vi wrote:

I feel kind of meh on 7p Vengeful. I think if Vengefuls start to get run with regularity, most people would want to play in the 5p version.

It's worth noting that I don't think 7P Vengeful has been run on this site at all, so nobody really knows what it would be like to play it...?

Alright, I won't bother approving or binning Vengeful 7p since it hasn't been run before. It can stay on the page as a variant, though.

I'm going to bin this current version of 3 of 5 as well - it needs too many changes to work and make use of its novelty well. If someone wants to design and run a new 3 of 5 in the future, I would welcome it.

For SCIENCE, I'm going to just keep it as the 2:3:2 version and give it a few more runs before we decide on its balance. Currently the mafia has won 3/3, which isn't proof of much, but it's something to be wary of. We can up it to 9p later if necessary. I'm wary of fixing every 7p setup by just adding two townies though, as we already have a shortage of 7p setups relative to the demand.

Science is probably fixable by giving the scum a 1-shot kill.

↑ GreyICE wrote:Science is probably fixable by giving the scum a 1-shot kill.

Hmmm, it's a good idea, but it still doesn't prevent the Day 2 lylo/mylo loss - I'd suggest scum would win in this manner more often than with 1 alive. It's optimal to kill N1 regardless, as such the only way this mechanic benefits town is if they lynch scum on D1 or D2 - if they do, they earn an extra mislynch. Why should they earn an extra mislynch for lynching a scum? When realistically (if we're to fix SCIENCE), we should be giving them that extra mislynch opportunity without town needing to lynch a scum to get it.

Well if they shoot N1 and hit a VT, then they're VERY likely to lose.

I suppose another fix at 7p is just make both the scum vengeful and remove the night kill entirely. That might make it fairly town sided though.

Ha! Solution.

Scum share a vengeful (first scum dies gets one), town loses if all VTs are dead, regardless of the number of living masons.

↑ GreyICE wrote:Well if they shoot N1 and hit a VT, then they're VERY likely to lose.

I suppose another fix at 7p is just make both the scum vengeful and remove the night kill entirely. That might make it fairly town sided though.

This is essentially the mechanic that No Lynching Town uses.

Imagine scum being lynched D1, misses and hits a townie. Masons claim and there is no way to lose. This is becoming less and less like the original setup, though.

EDIT: I missed the mason endgame rule. My last point still stands though.

Yeah but 2:3:2 is going to result in a town win like maybe 1 game in 5.

I like the idea of the 1 shared vengeful and the town losing when they run out of VTs. It's more-or-less true to the original flavor (Masons versus Scum, with town sandwich) but makes the town important.

More and more I think 7Ps just don't really work with a full night kill. It's too powerful.

↑ GreyICE wrote:More and more I think 7Ps just don't really work with a full night kill. It's too powerful.

I tend to agree - it's difficult to create a setup that is fair for the town that doesn't produce an optimal strategy or a boring/formulaic sequence of play. Town has no margin for error in 7p, so they do need a decent amount of power in catching scum and/or narrowing the lynch pool. This does limit creativity as far as role combinations go. It's easier to balance a 7p game when you dabble with mechanics instead of roles.

↑ Hoopla wrote:

↑ GreyICE wrote:More and more I think 7Ps just don't really work with a full night kill. It's too powerful.

I tend to agree - it's difficult to create a setup that is fair for the town that doesn't produce an optimal strategy or a boring/formulaic sequence of play. Town has no margin for error in 7p, so they do need a decent amount of power in catching scum and/or narrowing the lynch pool.

I thought they were the same as 9p ones?

↑ Hoopla wrote:

↑ GreyICE wrote:More and more I think 7Ps just don't really work with a full night kill. It's too powerful.

I tend to agree - it's difficult to create a setup that is fair for the town that doesn't produce an optimal strategy or a boring/formulaic sequence of play. Town has no margin for error in 7p, so they do need a decent amount of power in catching scum and/or narrowing the lynch pool. This does limit creativity as far as role combinations go. It's easier to balance a 7p game when you dabble with mechanics instead of roles.

For the first sentence: in an open, there is a always an optimal strategy. Claims come ideally at a certain day. It's just easier to find it in a small game.

Scum doesn't have a margin of error in 7p either.

It's a lot easier. Using a poisoner mechanic for scum already weakens them by a lot. Scum didn't get a lot of shots anyway. No killing kinda ruins it and really limits the actions you can give town. I personally liked revenge mechanics (mafia lightning rod or as a game mechanic), because it gives you a little more space to make mistakes. I assume one could limit the amount of kills (even more) artificially... but I don't know how accepted that would be.

Okay, we're pretty much done in regards to the Small Opens and we can move onto the mids. Trendy And Subversive seems to still be in limbo, but we can figure it out later rather than it stalling other progress. I've also added a page for Chosen Mafia. Just one clarification on that setup, it says that "1 or 2 Goons vs. 2 Chosen Townies" endgames them - would that include a 1 Goon/1 Townie/2 Chosen endgame? I assume not..?

Anyway, here are the mids;

2:2:9
Fire and Ice
Friends and Enemies (13p)
Jungle Republic
Mountainous Mafia (2:11)
Weak M.D.
White Flag (3:10)
2:10 Bugs Bunny
Bad Tweed
C/9
C9++
Faith Plus One
Follow the Cop... or Not
Friends and Enemies and Enemies
Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy
Hard Boiled
Masons and Mafia
Masons and Monks
Near-Vanilla
Night Watch
Nightless Vengeful Mayhem
Nomination Mafia
Operating Room
Pick Your Poison
Polygamist
Switch
Tit for Tat
Tread Carefully
Two-fold C9
Twofold Mafia
3:3:6
Basic Twelve Player
Daytalk12
Friends and Enemies: Deadly Alliance
Mini Love
Mountainous Multiball
Nightless Vanilla (4:8)
Strawberry Mafia
Unclean Mafia

2:2:9
Fire and Ice
Friends and Enemies (13p)
Jungle Republic
Mountainous Mafia (2:11)
Weak M.D.
White Flag (3:10)

These are the games that don't need much discussion to me. My only concern is going to be the popularity of the 2:2:9 and 2:11 Mountainous setups. I don't think they will be very popular with the players, and I don't think many mods will choose to run them. 3:10 White Flag is a far more fun/interesting (and possibly balanced) version of the 2:11 setup. We might as well approve them and if mods just don't pick them, then it makes no difference either way.

Weak MD might be a little underpowered for the town, given a Hider/Weak Doc can cost the town a mislynch. It's probably about on par with Near-Vanilla as far as balance goes, which is also possibly a little under for town.