Page 5 of 39

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:23 am
by Brian Skies
In post 97, Verbs wrote:
In post 93, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 85, Verbs wrote:i have more of a scum vibe from mail currently; if we assume that he knows what he's doing (as per his comments regarding other games he's played in), and we assume that he is town, his actions just don't make sense to me.
Do they make sense from a scum perspective?
more so than from a town perspective. at least scum would have something to gain from it.
If you are talking about the supposed gambit, then I disagree. I feel like the "gambit" benefits the town more because it acts as a catalyst for discussion. This discussion is crucial in getting any reads off of other members. Also, it may help the town from lynching possible town power roles. Furthermore, unnecessary attention and scum-like moves can make the mafia more distrustful.

On the other hand, there is the possibility the mafia could have been avoiding the random lynch or trying to appear more pro-town than they need to be.

But being more of a pro-town move doesn't make it any less scummy. The move still makes no sense to me in a newbie game because there's no guarantee the other players will recognize it as a gambit.
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
Not necessarily attention. The only attention I could see the mafia wanting is a pro-town read. In every other case, they'd rather be ignored and let other people be in the spotlight. Like it's been mentioned before, M-M could have been avoiding the random lynch. And it greatly benefits the mafia to keep the random lynch off of either of them.

This is just my opinion, I'm still not leaning either direction in suspecting M-M.
In post 92, notscience wrote:Hey Brian

Have any opinions on alignment yet
Currently, I am almost certain that Medoner is aligned with the void.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:39 am
by Amrun
Shiidaji replaces Medoner effective upon posting.

VC 1.2



Image



(2) Titus - Verbs, JKMatthews
(1) mail-mi - SXTLHGaiden
(1) Shiidaji - Brian Skies
(1) Nachomamma8 - notscience
(1) notscience - Titus
(1) Verbs - Nachomamma8


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Not Voting: Shiidaji, mail-mi


V/LA:

Deadline: Tuesday, August 27, 12pm EDT

Spoiler: Vote History
SXTLHGaiden
- notscience > mail-mi
Shiidaji
Medoner

Verbs
- Titus
mail-mi
- mail-mi > unvote
Brian Skies
advocatus
- Medoner
JKMatthews
- mail-mi > Titus
Titus
- JKMatthews > notscience
notscience
- Nachomamma8 > Titus > Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
- Verbs



If you spot any mistakes, please let me know.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:10 am
by Shiidaji
Supsup, you can call me Shii, reading through this tonight.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:06 pm
by notscience
As in, any town/scumleans yet?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:07 pm
by JKMatthews
Essentially just prod dodging here. I'll post more on Monday.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:11 pm
by Brian Skies
UNVOTE : TITUS

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:12 pm
by Brian Skies
UNVOTE : Medoner


Please disregard the above post. I had a mental lapse and was thinking of titus for some reason. I'm currently holding my vote.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:51 pm
by Brian Skies
In post 103, notscience wrote:As in, any town/scumleans yet?
These are my current leans:

Leaning Mafia : M-M, titus, Nacho
Mostly because the way they have been playing seems suspicious or it's rubbing me the wrong way.

Leaning Town : lettersGaiden, notscience, JKM
I have a small gut feeling for notscience and JKM. As for lettersgaiden, I feel there is a serious lack of scumminess in her part. But considering how she won her last game as mafia, it concerns me.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:56 pm
by Shiidaji
Notes as I go

Spoiler: read
RVS reads:
Gaiden townish, the eagerness to post first that strongly doesn't make me feel newscum.
notscience townish as well, I feel making a first post that is relevant to someone you already know means you're comfortable with what you're posting, i.e. townvibes.
Titus null SE talk
mail-mi scummish, the 'guize' feels forced and faked. I haven't seen anyone use that way of typing in in years. Admittedly it's already stupid since it's a self-vote but that doesn't redeem the tone of the post.
Verbs null
JKM had a similar thought process to myself regarding Mail's selfvote, so I automatically think he's relatively town.
Considering mail's experience mentioned in 15, I'd have expected him to have voted someone after the unvote, doesn't change my read.
Titus looks a little worse off, the parenthesis in 16 feel like an afterthought added to make his previous statement more inoffensive
17 he redeems himself though, that feels like something that comes from town regarding PRs, scum wouldn't have that on their minds yet (They'd prefer a possible mail!PR screwing up somehow)
notscience and Gaiden townreads strengthen

As of the beginning of page 2, mail-mi has failed to attempt to create content, which while I would understand coming from a newbie, reflects badly on him a.a.r of him having experience.
JKM continues to follow my train of thought down the page, strengthened town read.
Verbs still tastes null.
Titus mentioning FoS's puts him down to scummish again, as at that point he hadn't mentioned any suspicions at all yet, which indicates a lack of searching for them.

@Gaiden
- in post 33 you mentioned you thought of it being a WIFOM situation - About when did this idea occur to you, thread-wise?
@Gaiden
- If you've never dealt with it, why did you suspect Mail of WIFOM?

asked by Titus, nvm

@Brian
- How much experience do you have with Mafia?
reserving Brian read till answer
answered

Verbs is asking for opinions which reflects nicely as a newbie
Gaiden's attitude regarding WIFOM strengthens my townread on her still, her thought process when she said 'I never had to deal with WIFOM' is sensible, since she's only played as scum before.

End of page 2 and Mail read is the same, see above, he lacks deliverance after his supposed 'content creation'.

Brian doesn't have much Mafia experience, so the earlier role related questions probably aren't faked. If he was a Goon/RB he'd probably at least have some awareness of what's going on in the setup, so light townread as from what I can tell so far he doesn't seem savvy enough to fake that.
Disagree with JKM & notscience, I didn't see much buddying behaviour, not to mention that is an outdated scumtell
and
that Titus is an SE. Titus votes at this point aren't bad though, just for other reasons.
Dislike Titus's 58, he should have mentioned the above ^^^ as a counter to the buddying accusation, not attack someone off his wagon.
61 from Mail furthers my scumread, he's done jack-all at this point, three days into the game, this isn't town motivation from an 'experienced' player.
Gaiden's random chip-ins are starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth, lowers my townread some.
I liked Verbs's pressure on Mail until I realized Verbs still has his old Titus vote on him, doesn't feel good and a possible buddy association with either of those two, though I might be getting ahead of myself.
@Titus
- post 73 - Why not just up and vote Notscience at that point? You already declared your suspicion of him. It just comes across as meek and spineless.

Verbs's thought process w/r/t Titus on top of Page 4 is good, however his nipping at Mail earlier still makes me feel bad.
Titus isn't redeeming himself. As a whole, scum like to latch onto specific, singular things without looking at the big picture in order to simplify their manufactured scumhunting/make their jobs easier, this feels like this behavior.
Nacho will take me some time to read, but he saw what I saw on Verbs so that's a good sign.
Titus
- by post 84, what did you make of notscience's push on you? What is your read on Verbs?
Liking Brian more w/r/t his attitude.

Questions for Gaiden and Titus inside the spoiler, I'm caught up.
Nice townreads on notscience and JKM, and I feel Gaiden and Brian are almost as high as them too. Nacho and Verbs in the gray, with Titus and Mail being my scumreads.

Vote: Mail

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:58 pm
by Shiidaji
@ notscience - what about Nacho makes you think he was scum, from that small sample?
Brian wrote:If you are talking about the supposed gambit, then I disagree. I feel like the "gambit" benefits the town more because it acts as a catalyst for
discussion. This discussion
is crucial in getting any reads off of other members. Also, it may help the town from lynching possible town power roles. Furthermore, unnecessary attention and scum-like moves can make the mafia more distrustful.
Have you noticed Mail do anything with said discussion?

@ Nacho What do you think of a Verbs-Mail scumteam? Verbs-Titus? Everyone else can answer this too tbh but I want Nacho's opinion foremost.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:37 pm
by notscience
Oh, I don't think Nacho's scum yet.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:23 pm
by Verbs
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:23 pm
by Brian Skies
@Shiidaji : I'm surprised your reads and my reads are so similar. The only difference is that you have Nacho in the grey. The issue I have with Nacho is that he has been helping guide the discussion, but he hasn't actually contributed much in terms of his own opinions.

Not to say I think Nacho is mafia, this is just the slight lean I have of him. I have also considered other things that may give him a town read for me, but I'd rather have him engage a little more first before I suggest them.

In post 111, Verbs wrote:
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.
Are you listing the gambit's effects in regards to the town, to M-M, or to the mafia (taking into consideration whether or not M-M is indeed mafia)? Because I don't think having the pressure being almost entirely on M-M benefits the mafia if he is indeed scum. Also, people taking sides can be both beneficial and dangerous depending on how you look at it.

Sorry for complicating this for you, but I like to look at things in shades of grey rather than black or white.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:36 pm
by Titus
@shiinaj, I've been asking questions of Brian because I suspect him. His language betrays an experience with forum mafia that he denied. I've played a fair amount on Epic Mafia, and quite a few of these terms weren't there. I don't see how Brian is so aware of the terms with his experience level. I think he's hiding it in order for us to interpret his actions "as a newbie". I don't usually do a
FoS Player X
, but I can if that makes it easier for you.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:51 pm
by notscience
He just said he knows how to use a wiki

He could have just done his research

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:43 pm
by SXTLHGaiden
@shiidaji: i'd say round post 29 when JKM first said WIFOM. It got me to thinking in terms of circular logic and how useless it is. So when titus's post 31 came around, it just struck me as something that could be twisted. Titus agreed in his next post.
In post 111, Verbs wrote:
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.
I disagree with your thought process here. You assume that each of the positives and negatives are weighted equally. This is not true. In fact, if you say that discussion is highly valued, which people have, then wouldn't you say that generation of discussion should be weighted higher. But of course, this once again leads to circular logic where anyone can claim that "If [alignment] then discussion leads to possible scum slips, so player must be [not alignment]" so then after this statement, we can argue both ways for eternity getting no where. Either way, this post pinged me the wrong way. So for now,
VOTE: Verbs

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:59 pm
by Brian Skies
In post 113, Titus wrote:@shiinaj, I've been asking questions of Brian because I suspect him. His language betrays an experience with forum mafia that he denied. I've played a fair amount on Epic Mafia, and quite a few of these terms weren't there. I don't see how Brian is so aware of the terms with his experience level. I think he's hiding it in order for us to interpret his actions "as a newbie". I don't usually do a
FoS Player X
, but I can if that makes it easier for you.
If you question the type of language I should have been exposed to while playing Epic Mafia, it's probably because I've already experienced a few ranked games trying to convince the other players I'm town when there are only two blues and a mafia goon left. Sometimes this process lasts upwards of 30 minutes. You'd be surprised how many times WIFOM will get dropped in that situation. Furthermore, Epic Mafia has this nice little system that tells you what each little piece of jargon means when you scroll over it. The funny thing is, the first few times I saw WIFOM I thought it said Whine In Front Of Me and completely missed the reason it was being thrown against me.

When was the last time you played Epic Mafia? If it was a long time ago, perhaps its current set-up is completely unfamiliar to you now and it would benefit you to check it out again :D .
Besides, one's experiences (and learning curves) are not the same as another's.
I'm also extremely interested to know what language I've been using that I shouldn't have been able to.

In post 114, notscience wrote:He just said he knows how to use a wiki

He could have just done his research
Also, I did indeed do a little research of my own on the Mafia Wiki, including one article that lists the meaning of the most common abbreviations and jargon Mafia players use (admittedly, although I saw WIFOM on Epic Mafia, it wasn't until I saw it on this forum that I bothered to look it up). Not to mention beginner's guides (yes, I'm one of those people who actually reads beginner's guides before involving myself in new games).

One thing I did not mention was the reason I even wanted to try out Mafia Scum, and that is Koibu from Twitch.tv. I watched a couple games from his channel a few weeks ago and wanted to find a way to play it online. Although, because of the amount of time it takes to watch each game, I think I've only seen a handful of them up to this point (trying to catch up). But their meta is confusing and offers little to newer players, so I didn't bother listing it as experience earlier.

Like I said, I am able and willing to research things I do not understand. Just because I
signed up
for this game with almost no prior knowledge doesn't mean I can't learn anything along the way.

I think the mistake you're making isn't the information I should and shouldn't know, but the quality of that information. And I rate jargon as low quality (the application of said jargon, however, is completely different).

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:04 pm
by Brian Skies
And if you don't believe me Titus, look back at the time stamps from the first mention of WIFOM (Post #29), my first posts (#40-42), and my first mention of WIFOM (#51). This was actually when I had to look up WIFOM to make sure I wouldn't use it incorrectly (JKM's usage made me suspect I didn't understand it and I was right).

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:14 pm
by Shiidaji
Brian, it's practical and almost expected due to site-meta to always have a vote down on one of your scumreads - Perhaps if you vote Mail with me he will be encouraged to actually post content.

(Irrelevant: What is your avatar from?)

-
In post 111, Verbs wrote:
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.
In 97 your wording implied that there was
no
town benefit to the gambit - why did this change?
-
In post 110, notscience wrote:Oh, I don't think Nacho's scum yet.
Then do something useful with your vote, as he clearly isn't responding to your pressure.
-
Titus, answer the questions directed at you in my spoiler.

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:18 pm
by Shiidaji
Actually, different approach: Mail, can you post some reads? Who you think is scum/town, why, the like. What have you gathered from the aftermath of your self-vote?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:39 pm
by notscience
He clearly isn't responding to the pressure I'm totally placing on him by nakedvoting him because he's totally posted since said vote

Why are you worried about votes on Nacho's slot?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:52 pm
by Brian Skies
In post 118, Shiidaji wrote:Brian, it's practical and almost expected due to site-meta to always have a vote down on one of your scumreads - Perhaps if you vote Mail with me he will be encouraged to actually post content.
More content from M-M and Nacho is what I desire most right now, so I think I will take you up on your offer. I didn't realize having the vote active on someone was so important. :!:

VOTE: M-M

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:33 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 100, Brian Skies wrote:But being more of a pro-town move doesn't make it any less scummy.
Sort of does, especially when you can't explain the scum motivation for a move like that.
In post 100, Brian Skies wrote:The only attention I could see the mafia wanting is a pro-town read.
True. Do you think m-m's gambit accomplishes this? I don't.
In post 100, Brian Skies wrote:Like it's been mentioned before, M-M could have been avoiding the random lynch.
How?
In post 107, Brian Skies wrote:Mostly because the way they have been playing seems suspicious or it's rubbing me the wrong way.
What made you lean scum on M-M? You didn't feel that way before.
In post 109, Shiidaji wrote:@ Nacho What do you think of a Verbs-Mail scumteam? Verbs-Titus? Everyone else can answer this too tbh but I want Nacho's opinion foremost.
mail-verbs doesn't make much sense as a scumteam. Titus-Verbs would make a little more sense, but I have a townread on Titus at the moment so I don't favor it much.
In post 111, Verbs wrote:
In post 98, Nachomamma8 wrote:And what is it that they gain? Attention?
here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.
How is bringing all the pressure on mail a good thing for mafia? How does it allow scum avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit when you can call out people for having safe/easy opinions? The third negative is true but I don't see how M-M's posts accomplish that purpose at all if he is scum.
In post 120, notscience wrote:He clearly isn't responding to the pressure I'm totally placing on him by nakedvoting him because he's totally posted since said vote

Why are you worried about votes on Nacho's slot?
I wasn't planning on responding. Did you expect me to?
In post 121, Brian Skies wrote:
In post 118, Shiidaji wrote:Brian, it's practical and almost expected due to site-meta to always have a vote down on one of your scumreads - Perhaps if you vote Mail with me he will be encouraged to actually post content.
More content from M-M and Nacho is what I desire most right now, so I think I will take you up on your offer. I didn't realize having the vote active on someone was so important. :!:

VOTE: M-M
It's good and well that you want everybody to post content, but who do you want to die?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:32 pm
by Brian Skies
@Nacho

It's funny that you directed so many of these questions at me pertaining to M-M. I've been spending the last few hours reading through lettersGaiden's first game (motivated by the way he was playing). There is so much information oozing out of the first few pages (I'm up to page 10 btw; Sakura and Saki are making it hard to read and follow along).

I didn't originally have a lean either way in regards to M-M's supposed gambit. In fact, I didn't feel like I had enough information to comment on it because I didn't understand what was going on well enough at the time. So, considering it was a newbie game and someone mentioning we should random lynch to get the game going, I assumed M-M took it as an opportunity to mess around. I ignored the gambit until I could process what was going on and tried to see what other people thought on the matter.

The only time I actually established any leans for myself was when I decided it was a good idea to let the forum know my current leads, and I did. The reason I had a slight scum read on M-M was mostly because of the discussion between Titus and JKM, as well as trying to trust my gut. I also felt that if it was a gambit, it was terribly executed and an experienced player would have known better (my inexperience getting the better of me here).

After reading the article about the RVS in lettersGaiden's first game, I'm starting to understand the phase a little more and why M-M would have wanted to do it. And the more I process the information presented and the logic behind such a move, I'm starting to think M-M really did try to create a pro-town gambit. Although, his inactivity and lack of motivation to make his move clear to us still keeps me suspicious of him.

Effects of Gambit for Town (FMPOV)
Benefits : Generates discussion, moves town out of RVS more quickly (most important thing for Day 1), makes people choose sides (good for scumhunting and information gathering)
Cons : leads too much attention to M-M (if town misunderstands), scum can hide if attention never shifts to them

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:36 pm
by Brian Skies
I'm still keeping my vote on M-M for the following two reasons:

1) I don't appreciate the self-vote (anti-town move)
2) I want to pressure him in defending himself and creating more content