Mini 494: Farscape Mafia - Game Over


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:22 pm

Post by Tarhalindur »

Thin Man, does the name "chamber" mean anything to you?

It is day 1.

12 players remain: AlyG, Chipper Pear, Kilroy, Mexal, Patrick, Rhapsody, SurveySays, Tarhalindur, Thin_Man, YagamiLight, eldarad, soupfly.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

3 votes for AlyG (SurveySays, Tarhalindur, Thin_Man)
2 votes for Kilroy (eldarad, Rhapsody)
2 votes for Thin_Man (Mexal, Kilroy)
1 vote for Mexal (YagamiLight)
1 vote for Rhapsody (Patrick)
1 vote for SurveySays (AlyG)

2 players have not voted: Chipper Pear, soupfly.
User out of ambit.

Error 404: Sanity Not Found
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:33 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

Mexal wrote:
Thin_Man wrote: GJ getting the guy who has infinitely more experience than you and lecturing him on the subject of scumtells.
Wait, explain this to me.

You're patronizing me for explaining my reasoning behind voting for you based on the fact you believe you have more experience than me? How do you know how much experience I have?
I was assuming you were inexperienced due to the fact you seem to be acting like an inexperienced player.

I suppose I should have checked your previous games to see if that persona is across the board, but I didn't.

There's about 4 mafia sites on the entire internet that are actually worth their salt. The amount of people that come to 'scum from a site that's only been playing mafia 3 months then we have to unteach them the things they learnt on their idiot former site is ridiculous. I will have a look at your site to see if it's actually worth anything, but frankly I will be surprised if it is. I can think of one site where they've been playing mafia fairly actively for about 5 months now, and day 1 lynches are still nearly random.

@Tar: I am very familiar with chamber. I am also familiar with the stupid towns who repeatedly lynch him for exactly the same reasons that the last stupid town did, over and over again. He's one of the most readable people on the entire site, despite his 'cases are scummy' view, and any town that's lynched him whilst he's been town is unconscionably lazy.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:44 pm

Post by Mexal »

Thin_Man wrote:I was assuming you were inexperienced due to the fact you seem to be acting like an inexperienced player.

I suppose I should have checked your previous games to see if that persona is across the board, but I didn't.

There's about 4 mafia sites on the entire internet that are actually worth their salt. The amount of people that come to 'scum from a site that's only been playing mafia 3 months then we have to unteach them the things they learnt on their idiot former site is ridiculous. I will have a look at your site to see if it's actually worth anything, but frankly I will be surprised if it is. I can think of one site where they've been playing mafia fairly actively for about 5 months now, and day 1 lynches are still nearly random.
So wait, by your last sentence, are you suggesting that our day 1 lynch should be completely random? It seems like you're condoning day 1 random lynches but I'm not terribly sure. Why don't you explain it to me? :)

Just fyi, Westeros has been playing Mafia actively for over a year and half (it's longer but I'm not sure how much). Not that it matters though as I haven't played nearly that long. The point is, I don't know your experience, you don't know mine so there is absolutely no reason to patronize me.

So what exactly should we do on day 1 if not vote and voice suspicions?
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:09 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

Mexal wrote:
Thin_Man wrote:I was assuming you were inexperienced due to the fact you seem to be acting like an inexperienced player.

I suppose I should have checked your previous games to see if that persona is across the board, but I didn't.

There's about 4 mafia sites on the entire internet that are actually worth their salt. The amount of people that come to 'scum from a site that's only been playing mafia 3 months then we have to unteach them the things they learnt on their idiot former site is ridiculous. I will have a look at your site to see if it's actually worth anything, but frankly I will be surprised if it is. I can think of one site where they've been playing mafia fairly actively for about 5 months now, and day 1 lynches are still nearly random.
So wait, by your last sentence, are you suggesting that our day 1 lynch should be completely random? It seems like you're condoning day 1 random lynches but I'm not terribly sure. Why don't you explain it to me? :)

Just fyi, Westeros has been playing Mafia actively for over a year and half (it's longer but I'm not sure how much). Not that it matters though as I haven't played nearly that long. The point is, I don't know your experience, you don't know mine so there is absolutely no reason to patronize me.

So what exactly should we do on day 1 if not vote and voice suspicions?
No, no, no. I was holding that up as an example of a forum where people thought they were experienced and good despite not actually being so at all, and a forum where people came from to here. Not at all something we should aspire to.

PS: I am actually looking through your mafia forum now and it looks ok, honestly. With no insult intended at all, it's about the level I would expect from a 1 and a half year forum that appears to have mostly existed in isolation (though I could be wrong on this second count). I wouldn't put it in the league of the good sites, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be grouped in with the ones I mentioned earlier. How much influence have you had from mafiascum, playstylewise, incidentally (the site obviously)?

And whilst the numbers aren't really right with what I've been saying, Patrick still has likely been playing mafia as long as your entire site has. You should take note of what he's saying much more than your post conceded.
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:30 pm

Post by Mexal »

Thin_Man wrote: No, no, no. I was holding that up as an example of a forum where people thought they were experienced and good despite not actually being so at all, and a forum where people came from to here. Not at all something we should aspire to.

PS: I am actually looking through your mafia forum now and it looks ok, honestly. With no insult intended at all, it's about the level I would expect from a 1 and a half year forum that appears to have mostly existed in isolation (though I could be wrong on this second count). I wouldn't put it in the league of the good sites, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be grouped in with the ones I mentioned earlier. How much influence have you had from mafiascum, playstylewise, incidentally (the site obviously)?

And whilst the numbers aren't really right with what I've been saying, Patrick still has likely been playing mafia as long as your entire site has. You should take note of what he's saying much more than your post conceded.
I haven't had much influence from here to be honest as I've only really played 2 games here. The problem with mafiascum is that it takes too long. I'm around a computer a lot and I was spoiled by quick deadlines. So I kinda get bored after awhile playing here. I don't know anyone here so it's hard for me to be influenced by players. The only person that I've played with who was actually worth a damn was LoudmouthLee (played a game over on Westeros with us) and even then I've only played with him for a brief period of time.

Anyway, we shouldn't really be in a pissing match on who's experienced and who's not. It doesn't really truly matter since we don't know each other. I can't take Patrick's word anymore than I can take your word just because you claim experience (I'm not doubting it, I'm just stating I'm not familiar with you guys or your playstyles). I simply point out things that I find suspicious and let others formulate opinions. Remember, it's day 1. There won't be an airtight case but it's nice to point out things that are suspicious to me. If they're not to others, then all they have to do is to simply say that (as Patrick did) and then make a case on someone else. Others have agreed with me which is telling me I'm not completely off base. Then again, so many people repeating my argument rubs me the wrong way so it's something to look at. Regardless, my posts have generated discussion which I tend to think is a good thing considering how long and drawn out day 1s can be here.

As an aside, Westeros is somewhat isolated as we have a community of players who tend to play and post mostly there. You'll find that quite a lot of them are very good if you read some of the older games (game 35 for example). They are like me though, impatient :) What other sites are the "good" ones for future reference?

On that note, I'll
unvote
for the time being until I can grasp exactly where everyone stands. I still find you suspicious though but a little less so after some of your recent posts (side note: I don't like FoS so I probably won't ever use it. You'll just have to read my posts to find out who I find suspicious :)).
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:34 pm

Post by Kilroy8675309 »

I'm good keeping my vote where it is. Yes, Thin_Man, I probably wouldn't have voted you had you not been so blunt. Sucks to be you, I suppose.

And, I'm a big fan of WIFOM arguments, too. The way you play in previous games does not - or should not - affect others's opinions of you as much as you seem to think it should. So, unfortunately, you have yet to dissuade me off of you. Unless more shit goes down, I'm pretty convinced that you're a pretty good lynch.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:04 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

Mexal wrote:What other sites are the "good" ones for future reference?
MTGSalvation, Misetings, MagicLampoon and Mafiascum, GreyLabyrinth are the top tier ones. SomethingAwful and Paranoia Paradise on the WOTC forums are behind, but good enough for me to consider them credible experience. It should be noted that all those sites except possibly SA has a fair bit of crossover with MS. The reason MS is so good is because it has seven years experience of people with a solid hobby of puzzle solving turning up to rip apart each others arguments.
I'm good keeping my vote where it is. Yes, Thin_Man, I probably wouldn't have voted you had you not been so blunt. Sucks to be you, I suppose.

And, I'm a big fan of WIFOM arguments, too. The way you play in previous games does not - or should not - affect others's opinions of you as much as you seem to think it should. So, unfortunately, you have yet to dissuade me off of you. Unless more shit goes down, I'm pretty convinced that you're a pretty good lynch.
Are you posting via laptop from the shortbus or something? If I play the same way, as town, in 5 games running, then you vote for me playing in that exact same manner in the 6th game, then that doesn't put me in the wrong, it puts you in the remedial class.

Fact is, you appear to be voting for me for a reason that has fuck all to do with me being scum or not. It's like your retarded little brain somehow can't seem to struggle round the idea that the way to win this game is actually to vote for the scum. You are voting for people you dislike. I am voting for people i think are scum. Pretty sure this makes me of much more use to any intelligent town than you. You get your way, the town will be entirely rid of the people you dislike, with the exception of that scum who never got on your nerves, who just endgamed you. Entire town loses, bravo, crashing success for your point of view. You can 'lalalalalala' all you want regarding this topic, but you're still doing something blatantly anti-town if you're voting me for the reasons you put forward.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:09 pm

Post by AlyG »

I'm still suspicious about you Thin_Man because of your actions on the first 2-3 pages but not as much now that you have sort of explained yourself so i'm not going to be voting for you. YET.
Show
[b]Games finished: 1
Won as scum: 1
Won as town: 0
Lost as Town: 0
Lost as scum: 0[/b]
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:16 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

Are you going to carry on being completely useless then, or do you plan to actually do something sometime soon?
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:03 pm

Post by YagamiLight »

Thin_Man, question, when you are actually suspicious of someone will you be explaining? Thats what got me, when I read that, I didn't think about a still random vote, if it is a vote where you are suspicious and you do that, thats where you would get a vote, because the other players aren't mind readers, and would not know what your reasons are. They could just be that you are scum, and are voting him because you
know
he's town, or you actually have a reason.
Unvote

Kilroy, I don't like this post...
Kilroy8675309 wrote:I'll say one last thing about this: I am not a creature without sympathy. I do genuinely feel bad occasionally. But not in this case, Rhapsody. There's no reason to post that second paragraph in your most recent post, except to drum up sympathy from everyone, and attempt to turn them on me. Oh, well. And I almost felt bad.

(Also, if you'll remember, I gave you two [count 'em, "Two"] chances to stop arguing with me, accept I'm right, and continue on with the game. You denied my offer two [count 'em, "Two"] times. You brought it on yourself. Boo-hoo, Rhapsody's so put upon.)

If you're honestly getting yourself replaced, then you've confirmed everything I've said about you.
more precisely, your middle paragraph, but first, I would like to know witch two posts of your you are refering to so that I know I am looking in the right spot. Also, I don't like your idea that if Thin_Man had eloquently said "no" you wouldn't have voted him, a "no" is a "no", no matter how you put it. For now, just an
FoS Kilroy
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:36 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

YagamiLight wrote:Thin_Man, question, when you are actually suspicious of someone will you be explaining?
I'm not going to utterly rule it out, but it's unlikely.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:58 pm

Post by YagamiLight »

Well see, thats what bothers me, not giving your reasons for your votes say like day 3, seems suspicious to me, because for all we know you are voting that person because you know he is town because you are scum. You not explaining later
is
something I would vote you for.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:26 pm

Post by eldarad »

Thin-man, I am not bothered by what play-style you choose to use.

I am slightly bothered though by the number of times you have attacked someone personally either as a substitute for, or as a compliment to, attacking what they said.

As well as just not being nice, I don't think it helps us find scum.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:45 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

I am nice :(
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:50 pm

Post by eldarad »

Thin_Man wrote:I am nice :(
lol, I believe you.

But would you agree that if someone is reacting to a personal attack then that isn't as useful to us as if they were reacting to an attack on their logic?
And if you attack the person and their logic at the same time, it gives them an excuse to ignore the logical argument?

Anyway, can we start looking for scum now please?
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:09 pm

Post by Thin_Man »

Don't really get why you think it's mutually exclusive.

And if I spot anyone using my attacks in order to avoid responding to legitimate questioning, then there's no way I'll accept that.

and I've actually been looking for scum most of the game. I have two people filed away under possible, and two under unlikely, and I'm pretty much wondering what to do with both sets atm. I'm certainly not going to say them yet. This game has been far too much about me so far.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:34 am

Post by Mexal »

YagamiLight wrote:Well see, thats what bothers me, not giving your reasons for your votes say like day 3, seems suspicious to me, because for all we know you are voting that person because you know he is town because you are scum. You not explaining later
is
something I would vote you for.
The problem with this is how are we supposed to form mobs or come to any kind of consensus? Is it our job to do all the legwork and for you to just vote? Or are we supposed to just follow you blindly because of your experience?

You claim a great amount of experience and I'm leaning toward believing you. That being said, you might see things or pick up things that I might not. But if you don't say those things, I won't ever truly know them and I'll have to base my opinions off the things I see, whether they're wrong or not. You'll attack me personally and we'll get nowhere. So again, how do you plan on helping the town?
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:42 am

Post by Thin_Man »

Was that directed at me?
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:46 am

Post by Mexal »

Thin_Man wrote:Was that directed at me?
Yea it was. I actually copied a different quote. I dont' know why that one came up.

So yea, sorry, that was directed to you.
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:21 am

Post by Thin_Man »

The problem with this is how are we supposed to form mobs or come to any kind of consensus? Is it our job to do all the legwork and for you to just vote? Or are we supposed to just follow you blindly because of your experience?
You have no job, nor are you supposed to do anything. If you think I'm scum, vote me. If you think I'm town, support me. If you aren't sure yet, then wait a bit and look at the other players in the game before coming back to me later. I haven't at any point used anything to get people to follow me blindly, and if there's one thing I certainly haven't been this game it's lazy, so you're pretty much dead wrong leveling both those things at me.

I plan on helping the town by not being wrong very often. It's entirely up to you whether you think that's enough.

By the way, if I was to ask you your opinion on the other players in this game, now, could you tell me it without rereading their posts?
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:25 am

Post by Mexal »

Thin_Man wrote:
The problem with this is how are we supposed to form mobs or come to any kind of consensus? Is it our job to do all the legwork and for you to just vote? Or are we supposed to just follow you blindly because of your experience?
You have no job, nor are you supposed to do anything. If you think I'm scum, vote me. If you think I'm town, support me. If you aren't sure yet, then wait a bit and look at the other players in the game before coming back to me later. I haven't at any point used anything to get people to follow me blindly, and if there's one thing I certainly haven't been this game it's lazy, so you're pretty much dead wrong leveling both those things at me.

I plan on helping the town by not being wrong very often. It's entirely up to you whether you think that's enough.

By the way, if I was to ask you your opinion on the other players in this game, now, could you tell me it without rereading their posts?
I'm not leveling anything at you. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you plan on doing this game besides voting and it seems like nothing in any outward appearance. How are we going to know if you're right or wrong, or form an opinion on that, if you don't tell us what you're basing your opinion off of? I was once told that part of the game is figuring out who the scum is and the other part is convincing people you're right. If you fail at one, chances are town will lose. Anyway, play how you want to play. I'm not going to stop you. We'll see how it works out.

And yes, if you asked me to make an opinion on all the players, I could do so without rereading. But I couldn't definitively tell you who was scum and who was not. I could just give my impressions based on what they've said thus far.
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:41 am

Post by Thin_Man »

Well yeah, and they were technically right, I imagine. I've just always been more of a fan of the Coron school of thought of "doesn't really matter how wrong everyone else is, as long as I'm not wrong about anything all game I consider it a success".
And yes, if you asked me to make an opinion on all the players, I could do so without rereading. But I couldn't definitively tell you who was scum and who was not. I could just give my impressions based on what they've said thus far.
That's fair, but it was mostly a comment on the fact that you have done nothing for the last three pages except argue with one person.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:47 am

Post by Mexal »

Thin_Man wrote:Well yeah, and they were technically right, I imagine. I've just always been more of a fan of the Coron school of thought of "doesn't really matter how wrong everyone else is, as long as I'm not wrong about anything all game I consider it a success".
And yes, if you asked me to make an opinion on all the players, I could do so without rereading. But I couldn't definitively tell you who was scum and who was not. I could just give my impressions based on what they've said thus far.
That's fair, but it was mostly a comment on the fact that you have done nothing for the last three pages except argue with one person.
Ahh, but this is a team game. You being right is fine, but if the town loses, you lose too.

And you're right, I've spent most of my time arguing with you. But it's ok, because I've learned a few things about you and I've also learned a few things about some of the other players. It's day 1, someone has to be the focal point of the discussion if only to get things moving :)
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:52 am

Post by Thin_Man »

Then the town should try and be right about everything as well.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:05 am

Post by Kilroy8675309 »

I would like to know witch two posts of your you are refering to so that I know I am looking in the right spot.
The bottom paragraphs of both posts 78 and 80, I offered Rhapsody the chance to just shut up and continue on with the game, rather than continuing a pointless argument.
Also, I don't like your idea that if Thin_Man had eloquently said "no" you wouldn't have voted him, a "no" is a "no", no matter how you put it.
Hmm... very well, let me act out two examples:

"Hey, these two have strong opinions. I'll ask the first: First Guy, would you please explain why you feel the way you do?"

"While I
do
have reasons for feeling the way that I do, I don't think I should explain them right now. Perhaps in the future, I will, but right now, the best thing for me to do is keep my ideas to myself."

"Hmm. I suppose we can accept that for now. Second Guy, will you please explain YOUR feelings?"

"No."

That's
why.

As for you, Thin_Man, at first my vote was simply pressure, but the more you freak out about this, the more I'm convinced you're scum. If you play the exact same way in five games, and turn up Town in each of those five games, what it means (and what you would seem to enjoy overlooking) is that you have set yourself up a pattern, such that if you play that way, you
are
Town. This is not true. If you really can't understand that, then you will forever be quite a horrible Mafia player, because anyone who's halfway decent will go, "Look! I played like this in another game and I was Town!" and you will be convinced.

You have fun throwing insults that do nothing but prove your ineptitude at arguing. I'm comfortable :D
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