Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

How about this. The baby with power will do it. If you are the town, the baby with power will keep it a secret. If you are scum, the baby with power shall tell everyone about it. How does that sound to you?

I’m really glad we didn’t mislynch you. *me is impressed*

No sarcasm.

It wasn’t.

[Shoshin]

my thoughts on random is that he's in the poe list

I'd like to know what you think of my analysis on Random, specifically re: his reaction to Nico on D2.

[Nancy Drew 39]

The Goblin King has begun to sing!

You have all been invited to a masquerade ball.

Just when I have nothing to wear.

[Nancy Drew 39]

or I could show you what happened in corpse party after I sacrificed one of my partners

how lynching scum lost town the game

or I could point you to the recently completed turn of camn game, which had three back to back scumlynches the first three days followed by town lynches until an endgame

I could probably find dozens of more examples for how scumlynches were bad for the game

information is much better

a scum lynch that has support and also gives a ton of information is by far the best possible choice for a lynch even if another slot is obvscum

creature is not that, he's a scum lynch that has support and doesn't give information beyond that

U N T I L - A N O T H E R - S C U M - F L I P S

I've also gone into why I don't believe this particular playerlist is likely to be able to come together and both catch and lynch all the scum after a few days if there aren't already a lot of information to work from out there

so...

???

Look, town screwed up with no lynch d1. Creature lynch > no lynch but TP/letters > Creature IMO.

[Nancy Drew 39]

or I could show you what happened in corpse party after I sacrificed one of my partners

how lynching scum lost town the game

or I could point you to the recently completed turn of camn game, which had three back to back scumlynches the first three days followed by town lynches until an endgame

I could probably find dozens of more examples for how scumlynches were bad for the game

information is much better

a scum lynch that has support and also gives a ton of information is by far the best possible choice for a lynch even if another slot is obvscum

creature is not that, he's a scum lynch that has support and doesn't give information beyond that

U N T I L - A N O T H E R - S C U M - F L I P S

I've also gone into why I don't believe this particular playerlist is likely to be able to come together and both catch and lynch all the scum after a few days if there aren't already a lot of information to work from out there

so...

???

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did. I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes. As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day. Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

I’d look to anyone aggressively pushing Nico mislynch for starters.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Alright, this is where I'm at:

Nancy, Nico - town

---

WhemeStar - leans town for pushing Creature/Random and because overall he seems to play without any concern for appearances in a way that's more likely to come from town than scum.

Joral - leans town because of his early play but hasn't posted enough to solidify a read.

Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly) - leans town because they haven't done anything to make me think otherwise plus early post seem aimed at sorting alignments.

ArcAngel9 - leans town, because of early negative utility claim, which I think is more likely to be town than scum motivated, and recent posting doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective - it's the sort of crazy that's more likely to come from town than scum.

---

PFKAP - null, lots of shit posts without doing anything helpful

Princess of Renais - null, lots of shit posts without doing anything helpful

Scioness Sajj - null, because even though there's hints of scum, Nancy says she's town and I'm willing to suspend my read for the moment - as I mentioned earlier, I felt like she was pushing me with a tone of conviction but didn't actually have any conviction behind it, so the push felt fake - and since then she hasn't done anything to make me feel better about her alignment. I tried starting a discussion with her, as a way to get a better sense of her alignment as well as to refine my own reads on Random/Reality, but her answers were boring, so I still don't feel town here - she's mostly just commenting on things without much deeper thinking about the game but at least she's around and posting, so I'm okay trusting Nancy on this for the moment.

---

The Worst - strongly leans scum, because he's made himself unreadable by refusing to answer my questions, and despite telling him that it's causing me paranoia about his alignment at a time when this town needs to come together, not rift apart, he has chosen to continue refusing to answer my questions and thus to continue causing paranoia - in other words, he's intentionally causing me paranoia without any reason to do so and at a time when this town should be working together, it's precisely the right move to make because he gets to hurt town while avoiding getting lynched because nobody wants to lynch him and nobody seems to think that question-dodging is scummy - he's also been supporting votes on me despite offering no reasons to suspect me nor even voting me himself - and his read on Sajj hasn't been explained and I suspect it had no basis (i.e. it was fake) - and I'm also paranoid that he's one of the conspiracy forces trying to clutter the game with lots of pointless posts that make it more difficult for others to become engaged because of the sheer quantity of meaningless posts to wade through because despite his large post count I can't trace any sort of clear thought process trying to sort alignments underlying his posts.

Reality Check (Ank/Mastina) - strongly leans scum, because of terrible early posting, terrible vote on me, pushing pro-scum ideas (lynching for information instead of lynching to kill scum), not responding at all to my analysis of Random, and because if Random/Creature are scum, it's likely that Reality is too - also, they expressly said that scum should be scared of me, despite knowing nothing about me, which makes me think that they KNOW my reads are actually pretty good, specifically the fact that I called them out so early - like, why would Reality say scum would be scared of me if they think all my reads are wrong? Doesn't make any sense, unless Reality is scum. Reality's degree of certainty that I'm scum also doesn't square with anything they've said about my play - I disagree with them about an issue relating to how to play mafia, and suddenly they're 100% convinced I'm scum and won't even engage with me anymore? Won't answer why they're voting me? Won't talk with me about Random? That's the sort of certainty that scum faking a case on town display, because if town they'd have at least some reservations and at least try understanding where I'm coming from - but Reality instead is just straight-up accusatory without any attempt to actually sort alignments here.

---

Creature - scum, because of meta and because he's completely unengaged with the game, not showing much if any sign of scumhunting or figuring things out.

Random - scum, because of unnatural response to Nico, thoughtless response to my analysis, and because of terrible play at the end of D1.

Strongly disagree with you on the worst. The fact they they are strongly pushing a Creature lynch in addition to their consistent thougtful analysis - plus Creature making him his only “official” townread, reads hardtown to me.

[Nancy Drew 39]

oh come on everyone completely aired my shitpost

look fam it's not that deep

(I liked your shitpost :'])

<3

i def think creature lynch is info heavy, but there is debate over what that info acc is

I think both Creature and TP/letters lynch will provide info. I 100% disagree with Reality Check, on their no-info-Creature-lynch stance.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Meh, fuck this. No point putting effort into a losing game. If you the worst and Reality are scum, I don't see any hope of convincing anyone to lynch them - and if they're town, they're actively not working with me, they're making me paranoid as fuck that they're scum, and apparently they want to lynch me, so I've got nothing left to do here.

If Nancy or Nico want to talk about things, let me know.

I think you’re obvtown. I think people who are scumreading you are tonedeaf. That’s one of the main reasons, I’m so convinced that TP/letters is scum. She’s BOTH antagonistic and fake. Either one alone, doesn’t necessarily equal scum but the two of them combined frequently does.

Your sincerity comes through to me clearly in nearly every post. Why? Unlike TP/letters, you have actual content in your posts and are interactive and questioning. I think everyone (who is town in this game) needs to take into account both thought progression and tone. The problem is that too many people in this game are not doing that. The worst, like you, has demonstrated both.

[Scioness Sajj]

whoops got distracted

VOTE: shoshin

also fine with creature.

[Nancy Drew 39]

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

Okay, here's the thing:

Town wins by lynching the entire scumteam. Individual lynches don't matter outside of the direct impact it has towards this goal. The primary way to get accurate lynches is information. Therefore, the way town wins the game is by increasing the information per day higher than the amount needed to catch all the scum. Player skill also plays into this in the sense that as player skill as town goes up, the information they need to catch scum goes down. As player skill as scum goes up, the more information is needed to catch them.

Creature is a low information lynch in that it gives us

some

information about the setup, but it's low on information because scum had to have gone into the game already knowing he'd be caught immediately, so it's highly likely that him being caught is planned.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did.

which is why the top three posters were sent away from the thread for day one, which... surprise surprise, includes this slot and the worst! By this logic, you should also be townreading Sajj + the worst since they were heavily pushing Creature.

I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes.

including sending the two people you're calling incompetent town or scum and a third you're trying to get a read on

As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day.

scum can manipulate scum lynches

I've done that before. I also got heavily townread for it, which carried me to the end of the game after I killed everybody who could reasonably solve the game and catch me

also, Creature isn't manipulating shit

if we get the impression that roles are actively having a huge impact against town, then yes he's a very good lynch, because at that point, then the information about the setup becomes a lot more valuable

Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

I'll gladly lynch a town today if it nets two scum lynches day 3 and 4

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

so... basically you're agreeing with me that town is unlikely to come together

which is why I want to increase the odds that town is going to individually reach the same conclusion that scum is scum rather than just get scum lynches now

there's a such thing as a game over that takes multiple days to realize it's game over

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

no

you're getting lynched

No! They’re not getting MISlynched if I have anything to say about it. You’re not very familiar with my meta. I have pretty good reads. I recently finished a team hydra game where I was the only one on my team who correctly read two players as town. I sincerely doubt I’m wrong on this.

[Reality Check]

breaking my "no more posting tonight" thing just to respond to this

No! They’re not getting MISlynched if I have anything to say about it. You’re not very familiar with my meta. I have pretty good reads. I recently finished a team hydra game where I was the only one on my team who correctly read two players as town. I sincerely doubt I’m wrong on this.

welcome to Schrodinger's Shoshin, the slot that is both town and scum at the same time for the same reason

[WhemeStar]

HMMM

[WhemeStar]

These posts to long to rrad

[Nancy Drew 39]

Bit let me also deliver an ultimatum. If I end up with a guilty on RC *the player, not the mod* lynch 'em without question. And if I die, treat it like it was a guilty.

While I vehemently disagree with Reality on Shoshin, I agree with them re: investigation. I respectfully but honestly don’t think it’s the best use of your ability. I think there are far bigger question marks in this game. I strongly advise you looking there first. However, I understand it’s ultimately your call to make.

[Nancy Drew 39]

actually can everyone just LMK if they're willing to lynch creature TODAY or not in their next post pls?

Not doing so is claiming scum with him so please do


Will wait like 48 hrs before I turn this up to eleven
Creature if you're town pls ascend the status of mason buddy in the next 48 hrs

I already told you that I will have no problem switching my vote to Creature, rather than have another no lynch. I still strongly prefer a TP/letters vote.

You. me and pretty much everyone in this game (who isn’t scum) would love for this to happen. Lol.

[Nancy Drew 39]

actually can everyone just LMK if they're willing to lynch creature TODAY or not in their next post pls?

Not doing so is claiming scum with him so please do


Will wait like 48 hrs before I turn this up to eleven
Creature if you're town pls ascend the status of mason buddy in the next 48 hrs

to avoid a NL yes.

re: first point of 1096, we can see who looked like they were expecting creature to get caught no?

that's hard

scum can either 'catch' him themselves, wait until he gets caught and pretend to have 'caught' him before that, or just not comment at all

or really anything

if there's scum intent there, it's probably subtle

i would like everyone to give thoughts on this. i have my opinion, but i want to see what others say.

I wish there was some way to convince everyone to see what we do. :re: TP/letters. I think she already knows we’re onto her and her absence speaks volumes IMO. @Vartsun , @Taly , please help. Lol.

[Nancy Drew 39]

See now, if you want to avoid that, you are going about it the wrong way, for those kinds of comments only make the baby with power want to do it more, because the baby with power would think you are trying to talk the babywith power from doing it because you are actual scum and as stated above, you don't fear most of the players catching you on wits alone.

Lesson to Really Check: never put Baby in a corner.

I lol'd
Also answer my question

Sorry, still getting caught up. You mean about Creature? I already answered that but if I missed it, can you please ask me again. Thanks.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh, and also, if Shoshin flips town, then by your definition of gamethrowing, you'd be doing exactly that by lynching town. You could say you have no way of knowing he is town, but here is the thing: I have no way of knowing you are town either.

I still agree with Reality re:investigation but @Reality Check, you have to agree Nico has a very valid point here. Mislynching Shoshin is terribad for town.

[Reality Check]

I still agree with Reality re:investigation but @Reality Check, you have to agree Nico has a very valid point here. Mislynching Shoshin is terribad for town.

does that apply to tgpkap too

[Shoshin]

Nancy, can you talk to me about TP?

[Nancy Drew 39]

only if you make good investigates

speaking of which, don't ever investigate this slot

if we weren't already a mid-high priority NK, that would jump us straight to the top and that's outright TERRIBLE for town

(this slot will be obvtown eventually anyways)

Are you assuming that they can check role as well as alignment? because otherwise, this makes no sense. Actually it really doesn’t make sense either way tbh.

See, I could say the exact same thing because it logically is a waste of time in my case but I would never ever say, this would boost me to the top and that would be bad for town. It’s obviously bad for any

widely townread

player to be NKed. I would also add the worst and Vartsun to this category: waste of time to investigate - for obvious reasons.

what?

you literally saw me SHOW why it's a bad idea; I'm a competent town that can catch scum and sway town to lynch them while being blatantly obvtown in the process

I also just finished another game where I basically hard-carried town by catching scum and swaying town to lynch them while being blatantly obvtown in the process

why would you need a mechanical clear to accurately read this slot?

I really don’t see how this invalidates my point. Are you seriously suggesting that mislynching you is somehow worse than mislynching, the worst, Vartsun or me? That makes no sense whatsoever. Mislynching any ACTIVE villa is always bad for town. I don’t see how your mislynch is worse for town than any other. If you seriously believe this, I have no words. In a regular game, I would not be questioning this nearly as much.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Ank is obv towning rly hard rn

Yeah, they’re acting like their mislynch is so much worse than anyone else’s Nico, I retract my objection to you investigating them. It’s just too damn much IMO.

[Ankamius]

I really don’t see how this invalidates my point. Are you seriously suggesting that mislynching you is somehow worse than mislynching, the worst, Vartsun or me? That makes no sense whatsoever. Mislynching any ACTIVE villa is always bad for town. I don’t see how your mislynch is worse for town than any other. If you seriously believe this, I have no words. In a regular game, I would not be questioning this nearly as much.

this isn't responding to anything I said

my point is that investigating me is worthless because this slot will be effectively sorted within a couple days and odds are we'll be nightkilled within that timeframe anyways

the worst has tried to convince nico of that as well as myself

she's stuck in the idea that mastina will snow everybody and make this slot impossible to lynch if it's not investigated, which has been proven wrong

[Reality Check]

I really don’t see how this invalidates my point. Are you seriously suggesting that mislynching you is somehow worse than mislynching, the worst, Vartsun or me? That makes no sense whatsoever. Mislynching any ACTIVE villa is always bad for town. I don’t see how your mislynch is worse for town than any other. If you seriously believe this, I have no words. In a regular game, I would not be questioning this nearly as much.

this isn't responding to anything I said

my point is that investigating me is worthless because this slot will be effectively sorted within a couple days and odds are we'll be nightkilled within that timeframe anyways

the worst has tried to convince nico of that as well as myself

she's stuck in the idea that mastina will snow everybody and make this slot impossible to lynch if it's not investigated, which has been proven wrong

[Nancy Drew 39]

slots like Renais/TPFKAP are better investigates

partially because they're hard to read

but also partially because then everyone will shut up about them if they turn up town

If I were cop, I’d probably investigate players higher up on the food chain, like Angel, Wheme, randomidget or Joral but my preference would be Shoshin, in order to clear her once and for all. I strongly believe she is mislynchbait and am adamantly opposed to any votes on her.

if that's what it takes to get Sho-scum lynched, then go for it.

She’s town ffs!