Mini 1270 - Stargate SG-1 Mafia

[Felmix]

hmmm I do agree that the "bullying" comment was an over-exaggeration, yet the rest of his post had good info; Do you really think one small part of one post warrants putting someone closer to lynch range?

Absolutely. It's not as if people lose the ability to post "good info" when handed a scum role PM - it's certainly logical and clear, but since it's largely anti-Timeater, whether it's pro-town or anti-town depends largely on Timeater's alignment. I don't see anything in there that would make it more likely for Redacted to be town; I believe he would post roughly the same thing either way, so long as he's not buddies with Timeater.

A vote for anyone would put them "closer to lynch range", and obvious I'm going to vote people; I count him on 4 with 7 to lynch. I consider that entirely reasonable; I like wagons, I think this one would be (at worst) informative, and there's a lack of action elsewhere. I certainly don't see why I should refrain from voting him. We do, after all, have to kill someone in the next ten days or so, so I'm not going to be coy about voting.

And I do think the part I highlighted, though small, is nonetheless important. I have given good reason to believe Redacted deliberately misrepresented Timeater's behaviour, and there is no good town reason to do that. It doesn't matter if he did it in three words or a hundred; it's suspicious, and I believe it warrants a vote.

Preview Edit: On second thought, that could be a hydra clash. Fenix seems like he supports Redacted, while Elmo is voting him. What's the offical "together" stance on him?

Well, I can say that Fenix agreed with voting him, that's why I did it in a second post today. I think it's unclear to say support/not support; if you look at what we've posted, if I'm reading right that's Fenix largely agreeing with what Redacted wrote in #52, while I then brought up something I found suspicious, which I believe Fenix agrees with. There's a distinction between agreeing with someone's post and thinking that person is town; I, similar to my other head, think that most of #52 is logical and sounds right, although increasingly I am leaning town on Timeater due to his actual behaviour rather than the claim, I don't know what Fenix thinks yet.

Hopefully that is clear; I know playing with a hydra can be odd.

- Elmo

[Citizen Karne]

Did yuou both, Felmix and Citizen Karne, got a prod from the mod or did you simply start posting after being accused of lurking? There's only malthusis left as an inactive who has contributed nothing so far, only confirmed in thread.

I simply had not checked this game over the weekend. As I said, I was busy. I had not read any of the game thread since my last post before posting.

Fair enough CK, but I'm not a huge fan of largely FoSing without votes. It doesn't put any pressure on anyone and if you're scum it's quite easy to FoS your scum team without really risking a lynch But at least we know what you're thinking now.

When people are L-1, they know I am more than willing to hammer, and will not wallow in indecision when they claim Vanilla Townie or try and lurk to get away with it. Trust me, when the hammer is a more real threat at L-1, there is pressure. Also, I try and make up for not providing vote pressure by asking tough questions and making pressure be known in other ways, such as my posting style. Voting is not the only way to pressure people; in fact it is used so much under that guise I feel as though it is not really an effective method but more of an empty threat. I understand you simply have a different opinion, but as long as we acknowledge that we simply see strategy in a different light and that we have have different playstyles, there should be no problem this game. Before you judge how I play, finish this game with me and tell me your opinion. Not that it will change anything but hopefully you'll have a better appreciation of my style.

@mod - limited access next two days

karne seems a bit of a pedant and someone who'd i'd like to beat up but other than that he seems like an ok town poster. i'm willing to give him the "effort badge".

So it begins…:P How many 6'4" black men can you take in a fight, out of curiosity? I have friends who are roughly the same size as me, and we can arrange something I'm sure

Thanks for the effort badge; that's not an award I'm willing to give you yet however. I don't see what's wrong with writing as much as I did, seeing as I was roughly two days behind. Most of my posts won't be that long, don't worry. Also, why is fennin so highly rated on your scumlist? Do you believe you were incorrect in voting him earlier? I find it difficult to believe the person you find

most

town is someone you've voted.

@Karne- FoS do not show up in the vote count. And vote count patterns are helpful in scumhunting. Just so you know, this will earn you additional scrutiny and suspicion, at least from me.

This kind of thing is a definite scumtell to me, and is one of the reasons why I

love

playing like I do. Scum tend to see me as an easy lynch target because of my playstyle. Why the extra suspicion for a playstyle choice? So when I get town role pms, do I replace out or something? Do you really think I'm lying about my playstyle (something easily meta-able) just to gain a perceived advantage for vote count patterns? Is it that hard to view my posts and use the find command to search for all instances of "FoS"? Is it that hard to just read my posts and know my stances on people? By the way, if anyone ever wants one, I'll do the FoS analysis on myself late game so you don't have to worry about it not showing up on the votecount.

While Timeater has been fairly aggressive overall, Redacted made that comment in #52, when Timeater had been fairly mild; he only really gets going after #62. In particular, he hadn't exerted any pressure on anyone to nameclaim - "bullying" is plain wrong. I don't see this as a good explanation.

Good point. I suppose reading everything at once and then thinking about it messed up my timeline. Normally I'd still say the case is a bit weak to warrant a vote, but it's early still. I agree with 4nxi3ty though, I'd like a consensus from the heads on [Redacted]. Also, what do you make of Timeater's response to [Redacted]'s case?

P-Edit: Gotcha

[Ravel]

When you explain it like that, I definitely want to see how it'll work now It's gotten me curious now.

Unvote

Vote: Christine

your turn to show up and post.

[PeregrineV]

@Karne- There are lots of playstyle choices that arouse my suspicion. The "I don't vote except to hammer" is one of them.
Everyone else's votes will be out there clumped together, while yours have to be individually researched.

But, you've stated you'll post your own FoS analysis when requested, so I'll hold you to that.

[PeregrineV]

@Anxiety- Can i get the Town and Scum reads that you have so far?

[smargaret]

Votecount 1.5

1. PeregrineV - 1 (Christine)
2. Felmix - 0
3. Timeater - 2 ([Redacted], 4nxi3ty)
4. Workdawg - 0
5. Ravel - 0
6. Vala Mal Doran - 0
7. Christine - 1 (Ravel)
8. malthusis - 0
9. [Redacted] - 4 (Fennin, Vala Mal Doran, Timeater, Felmix)
10. Fennin - 0
11. 4nxi3ty - 1 (Workdawg)
12. jerobbo - 1 (PeregrineV)
13. Citizen Karne - 0

Not Voting - 3 (malthusis, Citizen Karne, jerobbo)

Please note the following from the first post:

8. Players will be prodded at moderator discretion.

[Felmix]

Did yuou both, Felmix and Citizen Karne, got a prod from the mod or did you simply start posting after being accused of lurking?

Elmo and I live in very different time zones, and we both have weird hours. We also like discussing things before just posting out of the blue. That's why we're had a couple long/dense posts as opposed to many short ones. We did not receive a prod, and we decided to post because there was something worth posting about, not because of accusations of lurking.

[Citizen Karne]

@Karne- There are lots of playstyle choices that arouse my suspicion. The "I don't vote except to hammer" is one of them.
Everyone else's votes will be out there clumped together, while yours have to be individually researched.

But, you've stated you'll post your own FoS analysis when requested, so I'll hold you to that.

Do you understand what the word playstyle means?

[Vala Mal Doran]

In post 40, Vala Mal Doran wrote:Timeater is almost certainly town for that move; why are you voting him?In post 42, Vala Mal Doran wrote:Right now you are the towniest person in the game {..}I'm interested in the change, here. It seems like you overreacted, changing your mind when Time poked at you. Can you say why you had such an extreme initial reaction?

My opinion of him hasn't changed; I am essentially trying to communicate the same thing in both those posts -- that I think Timeater is very, very town right now. The difference is that in the initial post I was posting my opinion with the additional desire to ward off the kinds of people (like Redacted) that I knew were going to derp all over Timeater and insist that him trying to get the game out of RVS + therefore taking a bit of a town lead position is scummy, which... lolno, it's not... and the 2nd time I wasn't because I was speaking directly to Timeater so my opinion was put out there a bit more candidly.

This shit happens in games all the time (can't think of any specific examples atm though >.>) where someone takes initiative in a game and then people jump all over them stupidly for it because, idk, they're pissy that they didn't get to spend 20 pages making lolrandom votes and claiming super death miller vig cop or something. And then people instead spend those 20 pages debating about whether that one guy is scummy or not (with help from the scum, I'm sure) and end up wasting the one guy's initiative. All this

despite

the fact that if their name isn't Thor or Hoopla they're almost always town IME.

Meh, gut tells me Anxiety (not gonna bother with the leetspeak) is just newbtown. And even though it's obviously really, really early for this sort of guesswork, his response to Redacted's post doesn't feel like a scumpartner interaction to me.

I personally agree with Anxiety on this. Timeater made the nameclaim and then really didn't follow it up with anything, and that is in addition to voting [Redacted] simply because he did not believe the claim was the most townish thing to do. To me, that indicates that he was probably using the claim for town cred, even if he does not directly come out and say that's what he was doing. Now, that being said, he does cite some potentially town reasons for claiming, so we're back to square one, his claim is a null-tell and should probably be ignored once we have some harder scumtells to go off of.

Regardless of who is who on the show, I'm going to assume everyone is fair game with regards to roleclaims. Bad characters could be town PRs, Cameron Mitchell could be scum. It's happened before.

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Can you tell me why you quoted me talking about my town read on Anxiety (due to his opinions re. redacted) when you posted that you agreed with him? Seems to me a bit like you're trying to ride that town cred bandwagon, even while you talk about Timeater doing kind of the same thing. (!!!)

@Ravel: You keep voting lurkers, but I have no idea who you think is scum. Some reads, please?

[Timeater]

vmd def town

lets pool scum reads

[Redacted]

Sorry for the delay on posting, Mafiascum hasn't been working for me at all today.

Catching up tonight and will post tomorrow when I get home from work (4ish for those super curious).

[Ravel]

@VMD: That's the purpose of voting for them - lure them out and get better reads than I currently do. Cause right now, I'm having a bit of hard time getting scum reads.

[4nxi3ty]

@Anxiety- Can i get the Town and Scum reads that you have so far?

here are some of my reads:

Town- fennin
Leaning town- redacted
Leaning scum- timeater

[Fennin]

Town- fenninLeaning town- redactedLeaning scum- timeater

So you have a strong townread on myself. What are the reasons that make you think I'm town?

[Workdawg]

@CK

- When you first said you rarely vote until the hammer, I was pretty skeptical. My initial reaction was the same as Peregrine's. No votes = no VCA... seems like a convenient way to avoid leaving a trail of scumminess by accident. However, you've since squelched my feelings about this by your more recent explanation. I suppose it's true that it doesn't make much sense as a scummy trick if you have established meta in this way... unless you were just playing for those few games where you're scum. That could be the case I suppose, but that's just some sort of weird dedication. I guess as long as the FoS keep coming to indicate who you would be voting for, that'll be good enough. I guess the thing that rubs me the wrong way about it is usually not voting is associated with fence-sitting; at least in my newbie game experience. That adds further to the irrelevance of your playstyle, since you clearly aren't fence-sitting.

@Timeater

- I know how you feel about indecision losing games. I've been in a few where I thought someone was scummy, but just wasn't sure. I let others convince me otherwise and we lost because of it.

@Felmix

- I agree with most of what you're saying in 125. Redacted's misrep of timeater in 52 is suspicious and I can't seem to find a town reason for it either. Maybe he can clear up what made him think that. Interestingly, I tend to disagree with timeater's reaction in 61, but I already mentioned that. 

Post 126/CK

- You say that Peregrine's reaction to your playstyle is "a definite scumtell". You don't think people should be a little bit weary of a playstyle that differs greatly from the site meta, and even borders on being inherently scummy? Why is it a scumtell for him to question your playstyle? I appreciate you explaining it, but let's get with the scumhunting. I think your playstyle is a null-tell, and I think others should as well. 

@VMD

- You have me a bit concerned with your stance on timeater (especially after he also calls you def town in 134), but I have another question for now. You call out Felmix for quoting your comments about 4nx (133). He hasn't responded yet, but it occurred to me that the quote he chose (post 80) is interesting separately. You say your gut tells you 4nx is newbtown (something I can support based on playing with him previously), but you follow it up with some scumbuddy theorizing. Is there something else to your gut read on 4nx? Redacted's play is potentially scummy, but I hope you aren't giving 4nx a town read just because you don't think he could be scum with Redacted.


Reads:

Redacted - leaning scum for the misrep on timeater.

VMD - possible scum for comments on timeater and 4nx/Redacted.


Timeater - wildcard


CK - probably leaning town

Fennin - leaning town, would like more content not related to game theory.

[Timeater]

Alot of you guys seem to be agreeing with me about Redacted's scumminess but aren't going the extra step by voting him.

Its a good wagon. Throw your votes that way so when he logs on tonight after work he can claim.

[Timeater]

CK is like a reverse empking

[PeregrineV]

@Karne- There are lots of playstyle choices that arouse my suspicion. The "I don't vote except to hammer" is one of them.
Everyone else's votes will be out there clumped together, while yours have to be individually researched.

But, you've stated you'll post your own FoS analysis when requested, so I'll hold you to that.

Do you understand what the word playstyle means?

Sure. But so we are on the same page definition-wise, I mean "The manner and style by which you play mafia forum games."

[PeregrineV]

CK is like a reverse empking

Yeah, I do see this, oddly enough.

[Timeater]

nice lurk, redac

lynch this scumbag

[Felmix]

Can you tell me why you quoted me talking about my town read on Anxiety (due to his opinions re. redacted) when you posted that you agreed with him? Seems to me a bit like you're trying to ride that town cred bandwagon, even while you talk about Timeater doing kind of the same thing. (!!!)

I quoted you because the post was addressed to you. I think you're making a mistake by writing Anxiety off as "newbtown", especially when the only person who believes Timeater is mega-town for his claim is you.

I also don't know what town cred bandwagon you're talking about (so far to my knowledge, there is no town cred bandwagon in this game), but I do find it curious that you would accuse me of attempting to look town for... agreeing with someone you believe is newbtown? That doesn't really make sense.

vmd def town

Is that for a good reason or just because she has a mega-town read on you?

Preview Edit: On second thought, that could be a hydra clash. Fenix seems like he supports Redacted, while Elmo is voting him. What's the offical "together" stance on him?

Since I'm posting, I can clear this up as well. I agree with the general skepticism of the random name-claim being town, because name-claiming by itself could be town pulling a gambit or scum trying to earn town-cred. To be honest, the follow-up to the name-claim is kinda scummy; it looks like he just did it for town cred. However, I've seen town pull worse stunts than that, and for less gain. There's also the issue that in terms of hard scumtells, a random name-claim isn't one of them, there's nothing scummy about the claim itself, and nothing that Timeater's done with the claim has been directly scummy. Elmo later pointed out [Redacted]'s 135, especially the part where he adds things that were never said. I hadn't read that post well, I would have skipped over it and still thought that Redacted just didn't like the nameclaim.

@PeregrineV:

There's a lot of mafia theory and playstyle talk from you, but reading your ISO, I have no idea where you stand on the current issues. If you could let us know where you stand and contribute a little to the discussion, that'd be great. Please and thank you.

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[Timeater]

felmix 75% scum

malth will see it too

[Citizen Karne]

In post 40, Vala Mal Doran wrote:Timeater is almost certainly town for that move; why are you voting him?In post 42, Vala Mal Doran wrote:Right now you are the towniest person in the game {..}I'm interested in the change, here. It seems like you overreacted, changing your mind when Time poked at you. Can you say why you had such an extreme initial reaction?

My opinion of him hasn't changed; I am essentially trying to communicate the same thing in both those posts -- that I think Timeater is very, very town right now. The difference is that in the initial post I was posting my opinion with the additional desire to ward off the kinds of people (like Redacted) that I knew were going to derp all over Timeater and insist that him trying to get the game out of RVS + therefore taking a bit of a town lead position is scummy, which... lolno, it's not... and the 2nd time I wasn't because I was speaking directly to Timeater so my opinion was put out there a bit more candidly.

This shit happens in games all the time (can't think of any specific examples atm though >.>) where someone takes initiative in a game and then people jump all over them stupidly for it because, idk, they're pissy that they didn't get to spend 20 pages making lolrandom votes and claiming super death miller vig cop or something. And then people instead spend those 20 pages debating about whether that one guy is scummy or not (with help from the scum, I'm sure) and end up wasting the one guy's initiative. All this

despite

the fact that if their name isn't Thor or Hoopla they're almost always town IME.

I feel as though this argument supports Timeater's play as representing a nulltell, as opposed to a towntell. What do you think of that assertion?

vmd def town

Ladies and gentlemen, I present you a rare example of reverse-OMGUS.

Post 126/CK

- You say that Peregrine's reaction to your playstyle is "a definite scumtell". You don't think people should be a little bit weary of a playstyle that differs greatly from the site meta, and even borders on being inherently scummy? Why is it a scumtell for him to question your playstyle? I appreciate you explaining it, but let's get with the scumhunting. I think your playstyle is a null-tell, and I think others should as well. 

I completely understand (and expect) that people will be wary of my playstyle. The word that I had issue with was not skeptical but "suspicious." I define a scumtell as an action or stance a mafia member will take more often than a townie. In my opinion (and experience), manipulating a playstyle to make it seem worthy of a vote or even a lynch (yes, it has happened) seems like something a mafia player is more likely to do than a townie, would you not agree? I'm glad you correctly identify it as a nulltell, and I agree. Enough theory for one game. Let's get to scumhunting!

CK is like a reverse empking

HA

@Karne- There are lots of playstyle choices that arouse my suspicion. The "I don't vote except to hammer" is one of them.
Everyone else's votes will be out there clumped together, while yours have to be individually researched.

But, you've stated you'll post your own FoS analysis when requested, so I'll hold you to that.

Do you understand what the word playstyle means?

Sure. But so we are on the same page definition-wise, I mean "The manner and style by which you play mafia forum games."

Do you see the issue with labeling it suspicious? It remains constant regardless of alignment.

felmix 75% scum

malth will see it too

Care to explain for those of us who are not Malthusis?

[jerobbo]

Redacted - stalling post, then a lurk with no post? Could all be innocent but can't say it doesn't warrant some more pressure

Vote [Redacted]

Other than that, I have Workdawg, CK and timeater as prob Town

Everyone else as null

Redacted as poss Scum

[Fennin]

That puts Redacted at -2

Still lurking?