Mafiascum.net

goodmorning ISO

post 45
goodmorning quotes my post 39 and says that it increases her townfeel re me. How does my post, which is alignment neutral, increase townfeel? Keep in mind that in the same post she thought some of my tentative reads were based on posts/comments of other players she thought were not alignment indicative.

Post 62:

↑ goodmorning wrote:In post 56, fferyllt wrote:I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.


1. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.
2. I think they do have basis, but in some cases... I don't know what I was trying to say here, just don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
3. It took me a little while to feel comfortable with having gut reads. Everyone differs. At any rate, it's not like a pg2 Townfeel makes you confTown.

I soft-FOSed her about getting a townfeel so early and with what I see as little basis. She glosses over that and focuses on why her disagreement with the basis of some of my reads at that point doesn't mean we're not on the same team.

Other parts of that post make me uneasy as well. She's encouraging about the Deras bandwagon without adding a vote to it. It's subtle but could be encouraging more votes without getting her own hands dirty.

post 85 also sounds alarms and is the one that finally drew my vote. It feels like she's subtly recast Fropome's suspicion of her as a reason to vote him. But, that looks like an OMGUS vote despite the window dressing.

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

↑ Eye Urn wrote:As much as I am a bit suspicious of Revenus in his last few posts, this is a terrible reason to vote for someone. Bandwagons are not bad things; you need them to lynch people, and you need to lynch people to kill the scum. You clearly don't want the pressure placed on you and are trying to deflect it somewhere else in any way you can.

Eye, How is this alignment indicative?

@Carey, how about some reads?

Fropome - I'm a little concerned that Fropome hasn't posted in the last day+, but he said he's trying to adapt to the pace here at MS.

Revenus - going after Deras bothered me a little, although Deras did make some objectively scummy posts. I'm used to seeing posts like that from n00bs and I personally don't find stuff like that strongly alignment indicative for n00bs unless there is more of a pattern to it.



Eye Urn - On reread, his posts seem to break down into two themes: arguments for lynching lurkers and Deras. His posts about Deras kinda look like confirmation bias - like he's decided Deras is scum and is seeing most of what Deras posts as more evidence of scumminess.

AlexisTay - Not a lot of content here given the number of posts. lukewarm scumhunting, not a lot of follow-up. One thing that caught my eye in reread was the stuff about game-modding affecting gameplay such that he's in the habit of observing and coming up with conspiracy theories. I'm not sure how game-modding leads to coming up with conspiracy theories when playing. I'm not sure if this is meant to excuse future bad play or if in the context of mafia AlexisTay considers conspiracy theories to be a good thing.


Mac - moar reads plz. And thanks again for replacing in!

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.


goodmorning - easy targets and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

BTW, also developing townreads on eye urn/fferty.

Eye Urn has had a similair thought process to mine; he's been genuine and seeing a lot of the same things that I have been.

fferylt is also interacting with most of the game, and is coming off as genuine.

↑ fferyllt wrote:some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago.

Although I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here; are you saying that even though he's doing genuinely scummy things, because he's a noob, they're not actually scummy?

How do YOU catch noob scum if you're going to excuse the scummy moves they make?

↑ Revenus wrote:

↑ fferyllt wrote:some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago.

Although I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here; are you saying that even though he's doing genuinely scummy things, because he's a noob, they're not actually scummy?

How do YOU catch noob scum if you're going to excuse the scummy moves they make?

n00bs don't get unlimited excuses, but I do tend to go easy in the early part of a game.

tbh, I'm not sure how I'll apply that in a game in this format. In a game with 12/24 hour days, a n00b might get more of a pass than strictly deserved on day 1. In this format, a whole day 1 of "aww, just a n00b" would be absurd.

Deras already seems to be taking some of the criticisms on board, so the bar is pretty much raised a notch or two after his most recent post.

Townfeel ranking

Fro > Eye > ffery > Deras > Rev = Mac > GM , Carey

Fropome (Most Town)
I see genuine attempts at bringing his case for his past game experience and the way he received his responses. His direct answers to GM's subtle attack at his overreaction strengthen my townfeel for him(see post 76). In particular, his response to me in post 42 suggests that he is trying to contribute by mentioning something slightly different. The back and forth that keeps taking place between him and GM suggest to me that GM is either trying to take advantage of Fro's unorthodox points about lynching scum/lurkers and rather quick reactions (which indeed can be misrepresented as defensive behaviour), or that there's a bus driving past. More on this below.

Eye Urn (Very Town)
I see his vehement attempts to chase after lurkers as a sign of townie play. He first went after Deras, who hasn't contributed much but had a knee-jerk reaction to Rev's vote. I interpret his WIFOM about Deras "trying to deflect pressure however he can" (see post 68) as a way to pile on pressure, as he also does for Carey, who incidentally already has a bad stink going around. I see pretty consistent behaviour from him so far, so a strong townfeel.

fferylit (Very Town)
I see a very consistent theme hanging around about making alignment indicative posts, right from the first off-hand townfeel GM gave her. However, I also see her paying a lot of attention to GM and Fro. And while she has done ISO and does talk about lurkers, I see that just like GM, she's not giving a lot of pressure to heavy and recalcitrant lurkers esp Carey, who at least as far as my newbie opinion goes, shouldn't be behaving as such in this game. I, however, feel that this may be her having anticipated such play from said players, being more experienced, so the overall read is also very town.

And yes, I would say it is to let you guys anticipate that I sometimes use the whole conspiracy theory to try and associate people. This tends to happen when you want to design setups that are as fool proof as possible, you want to anticipate how people will try to buddy or bus and how that relates to the setup. I think it is a different way to play and I am trying it out, since it has worked in the cases where I see it being used in RL games. If experience tells you guys its bad play, I welcome you guys to show me.

Deras (Leaning Town)
Although content wise I see little contribution and considering the early lurking-like behaviour, I see his attempt to contribute and his acknowledgement that his behaviour has been objectively bad as a sign of town behavior. Keeping a close eye on him.

Revenus (Leaning Town)
Rev has not posted much other than to put pressure on Deras and Carey. He suspecting Deras is objective, but considering the difference in experience levels, there seems to be undue focus, especially since Deras has attempted to contribute while Carey is simply not doing so, and he hasn't commented much on others. I look around and it appears that there is some history about his behaviour in other games, (45), so he "being in a good mood" may explain a little. His attention appears to be focused on only the lurkers and maybe a bit on fferylit's ISO of GM. Nothing else strongly indicative other than that, so I get a weak townfeel. More reads from him may help.

Mac (Neutral)
Mac has only two posts which provided very brief reads, I have null. I must say, replacing in must be hard, with all that catching up to do.

GM (Manipulative Scummy)
In her posts I see a very selective appeal to reasoning, as Fro's behaviour does not really justify him being voted over Carey. Moreover, when Eye Urn attempted to resolve a possible misunderstanding, she did not respond in time, leading me to suspect that she's deliberately playing on Fro's rather newbie posts. Too focused on the behaviour on one person and not paying attention to another. The back and forth that took place between her and Fro also does not help her case. A very strong association between her and Fro, and fferylit is hot on their tail, and GM's rather flimsy reasoning leads me to believe there's a lot happening there. GM's playing real hard on the manipulation.

Carey (Foolhardy Scummy)
Carey has not posted anything useful, period. His strange attempts to dismiss others also comes across as really foolhardy to me, not making sense both as scum or town. If he does not give a good post the next time we see him, I will put my vote on him.

It's hard for me to pin down whether GM or Carey is "scummier", they're different kinds of scummy IMO.

*slight correction to above post, it should be "Rev > Mac". That is all.

RE GM vs Carey, I obviously agree they both look scummy. In my prioritization, as town I always assume the current game day could be my last - i.e., I could be the NK. And I go after my scum read I feel will be hardest to lynch. We may very well lynch Carey today if the level of engagement doesn't improve. If so, whether I'm alive on day 2 or not the case I develop on the more difficult to lynch player will be a matter of record for the living town players to do with as they see fit.

Sorry guys. I've been really shit in here right now due to work piling up at me at the moment. However, after Monday I have a few days off and will be able to do a proper catch-up and analysis. Until then, I'll try to post as much as time allows.

SPOILER TAG TIME





All of this may be relevant to you even if you aren't one of those players and I encourage you to read it anyway, but it's a giant quotewall so it's been spoiler'd for sanity purposes.

P-EDIT:
MAC ;-;
FAIR FORTUNE TO YOU, GOOD SIR

I don't remember when I said I don't take notes. That's only partly true; for notes I just ISO myself and Ctrl-F "interesting." For everything else I just reread.

NOTE TO SELF: 135 is interesting.

Re: GM/Frop and posts 33/35

Upon preview, that's exactly what happened, so I'm feeling better about GM - but still haven't really seen any decent scum hunting and so nothing's really pulling me from a neutral read here.

Re: Carey

I'm totally shocked. I expected to wake up this morning and see him actually have posted something of substance much like Deras eventually did, but instead I see nothing. And I don't see this as a mere policy lynch. An hour after he says AFK for 2 days, he posts another absolutely worthless comment. What was he doing in that hour? If he was away from the game, why did he come back after an hour when he said he'd be gone for 2 days, and why did he post such meaningless drivel after that hour? It seems to me that even if he doesn't really have much interest in the game (even though he once said he does), he's actively avoiding trying to discuss anything at all - presumably because he can't come up with anything to say due to an inability to play scum effectively. He's doing the absolutely worst kind of pseudo-lurking of posting once a day and not even bothering with a few gameplay related comments. If his level of involvement so far is truly the only thing he's capable of due to other commitments, he should be replacing out. By actually wanting to stay in the game with his level of involvement so far, I definitely expect to see a massive amount of commentary the next time he manages to get on.

↑ goodmorning wrote:I don't remember when I said I don't take notes. That's only partly true; for notes I just ISO myself and Ctrl-F "interesting." For everything else I just reread.

You said it here

↑ goodmorning wrote:Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions, I can look back and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Rereading Deras's 103, basically all I see is just a parroting of what everyone else has said. I don't really see anything that's standing out as an original opinion except for his view that Rev's vote is based on shaky reasoning, and I'm pretty sure Rev just didn't feel it necessary to repeat the argument I had already made. Claiming to not have reads the first few days, and then coming back with the exact same reads as everyone else once under a bit of pressure feels a bit contrived. If possible, I'd like to see him make some original comments on the various threads of discussion. I totally agree that this might just be confirmation bias on my part, but what I really am interested in is everyone voicing their own opinions; it's easy to get by as scum by just repeating what the rest of the town has said.

↑ Eye Urn wrote:...what I really am interested in is everyone voicing their own opinions; it's easy to get by as scum by just repeating what the rest of the town has said.

And this is why 133 gives me pause.

↑ goodmorning wrote:I've already explained why I'm off Carey. If he's not really paying attention, voting him will add no pressure. I only have one vote, I'd prefer it went somewhere more useful.

But Carey himself already said he is paying attention, just not posting any content

↑ Deras wrote:

↑ goodmorning wrote:I've already explained why I'm off Carey. If he's not really paying attention, voting him will add no pressure. I only have one vote, I'd prefer it went somewhere more useful.

But Carey himself already said he is paying attention, just not posting any content

Also, he already reacted to a vote against him with an OMGUS vote, so he IS paying attention.

↑ goodmorning wrote:

↑ Fropome wrote:

↑ goodmorning wrote:Bit defensive, this.

Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

Possible? Seems legit. Only three though? I must be improving.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later to see how it bounces off the rest.

I see you don't keep notes then.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions, I can look back and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Sorry you feel I redirected. This is my first time ICing, I'm trying to figure out where the hat should go exactly.

I don't feel redirected. You redirected, I didn't.

Let me rephrase: "Sorry that you feel that I redirected."

As for the replacement issue: you're mostly right, 90% of the time replacements hurt the Town. But there are replacements that hurt Scum (I'm only harping on this because I was Scum in a game like that really, but eh.)

Welp, I'm not sure you're not scum in this game, possibly facing the same problem. I'm bemused at how my willingness to talk about my scum experience tingles you in any way.

I doubt any replacements this early on would be of the hurting-anyone variety.
It's something I want to remember you doing, because it's fairly out of the ordinary.

↑ Mac wrote:Hello everyone. Nice to see someone familiar faces, and not so familiar faces too in this game.

MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT.
EXCITE
_{TRACEY YOU ARE CLEARLY WONDERFULLLLLLLLL}

I'm beginning to enjoy Revenus already, this sarcasm thing will be immensely entertaining.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

^^ This vote, IMO is the thinly veiled OMGUS vote.

↑ fferyllt wrote:

↑ Eye Urn wrote:As much as I am a bit suspicious of Revenus in his last few posts, this is a terrible reason to vote for someone. Bandwagons are not bad things; you need them to lynch people, and you need to lynch people to kill the scum. You clearly don't want the pressure placed on you and are trying to deflect it somewhere else in any way you can.

Eye, How is this alignment indicative?

You're right, it's not. I do recognize that townies under pressure want to deflect it as much as scum, since they're confirmed town to themselves, so perhaps that last sentence wasn't particularly useful to others. However, it was intended to try to get a further response (which it did). Even the first two sentences don't necessarily say anything alignment-specific, but they do argue that his actions were not pro-town.

@Rev could you give us your reads?

@Deras: If you're actually paying attention and have time to say you are, you have time to post a brief post with a read or two instead of "lol I'll try again later".

Votes stand out in thread. It is very easy to skim the thread looking for a vote on you to OMGUS if you're into that sort of thing.

@ffffff: I am aware that that was the vote you thought was an OMGUS vote, being the only vote I have made on Fro so far. What I am not aware of is why you think that. Overreaction is a valid reason to vote someone and, should he explain himself reasonably, I would not then have a reason to keep voting him. So far he has not done so, therefore I do have a valid reason to keep voting him.

In case anyone is interested in my reads:

ffffffffffffffff (dropping towntells everywhere)
Fe (this is, of course, Eye Urn) (for future reference) (pretty townish, but somewhat vague at times in a way?)

Deras (hard newb rea, not so hard any other read)
Mac (few posts)
Rev (I am flipflopping on him. I do not know why.)
Carey (general behaviour BUT it's kind of his playstyle, I'll have a real read on him when he posts substance)

AT3 (reads post)
Fro (pending explanation)

↑ goodmorning wrote:

↑ Eye Urn wrote:...what I really am interested in is everyone voicing their own opinions; it's easy to get by as scum by just repeating what the rest of the town has said.

And this is why 133 gives me pause.

I totally agree that 103 and 133 are very similar, but 133 at least has a bit of original reasoning. True, it might just be scum deciding that they need something to back up their parroting, but at least it's showing an intent to get something original out there for us to analyze. It very well might be a scum play, but it's a riskier one and so I'm going to consider it a bit more townish. Still not leaning all that much away from neutral on Alexis, for precisely the reason quoted.