↑DarthYoshi wrote:No. Though that's not this setup.
What do you think prevents a Day 1 massclaim essentially making it this setup? It's not rational for scum to counterclaim Doctor, as they're forced to leave at least one alive, enabling the town one or two Doc protections each night. It's not rational for scum to counterclaim Tracker - as it gives town a 50/50 on Day 1 straight up. Assuming this, the setup does become 3 Innocent Childs, with the added bonus of a couple more chances for night powers to do something. The Doctors can then either protect two players amongst the three, forcing scum to either gamble (and give them a free vig kill if they miss) or use their Strongman kill. Presuming they do use the Strongman, the town will either have two Doctors (scum won't do that), or a Doctor and a Tracker. This means the Tracker gets two uses of its action (N1 and N2) for free, plus the benefits of a 3-player open masonry for PoE.
Even if town played it normally, the Doctor-into-Vig role is probably too overpowered on its own. If a successful save is effected, you've done three things; you've prevented a scum-kill (handy), which leaves the town in even numbers. This in turn enables a vig shot to not cost a mislynch (super handy) AND it also confirms a townie (extremely handy). If the Doc-vig claims, it confirms itself and another player, plus a free kill the next night. That's too much swing for guessing one scumkill right.
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:08 pm
by Ether
Why is the old version of Pick Your Poison still in the queue? When would scum ever choose to add a cop into the game? The novelty never becomes relevant.
Patrick's made alternative versions, though I don't know if they're normal. I'm still nostalgic over PYP2.
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:18 pm
by Hoopla
↑Ether wrote:Why is the old version of Pick Your Poison still in the queue? When would scum ever choose to add a cop into the game? The novelty never becomes relevant.
Patrick's made alternative versions, though I don't know if they're normal. I'm still nostalgic over PYP2.
Yes, there are better Pick Your Poison setups we could use instead of the current one.
↑DarthYoshi wrote:No. Though that's not this setup.
What do you think prevents a Day 1 massclaim essentially making it this setup? It's not rational for scum to counterclaim Doctor, as they're forced to leave at least one alive, enabling the town one or two Doc protections each night. It's not rational for scum to counterclaim Tracker - as it gives town a 50/50 on Day 1 straight up. Assuming this, the setup does become 3 Innocent Childs, with the added bonus of a couple more chances for night powers to do something. The Doctors can then either protect two players amongst the three, forcing scum to either gamble (and give them a free vig kill if they miss) or use their Strongman kill. Presuming they do use the Strongman, the town will either have two Doctors (scum won't do that), or a Doctor and a Tracker. This means the Tracker gets two uses of its action (N1 and N2) for free, plus the benefits of a 3-player open masonry for PoE.
Even if town played it normally, the Doctor-into-Vig role is probably too overpowered on its own. If a successful save is effected, you've done three things; you've prevented a scum-kill (handy), which leaves the town in even numbers. This in turn enables a vig shot to not cost a mislynch (super handy) AND it also confirms a townie (extremely handy). If the Doc-vig claims, it confirms itself and another player, plus a free kill the next night. That's too much swing for guessing one scumkill right.
Fair 'nuff. I'll take it back to the drawing board and see what I can come up with. Probably need to remove the tracker at the very least, maybe give scum a roleblocker (the horror, etc). Thanks, Hoopla.
No, that's a set-up where when a mislynch occurs that townie lives and the scum get to kill.
That's a completely different set-up.
No Lynching Townie
This
Night Kill Each Night
Night Kill on Scum Death
Scum decides if mislynched townie should be a treestump or whether another townie should be killed
Mislynched Townies Die
However, the it would no longer be nightless.
Empking wrote:None of those are proper Nightless.
Also, the second is nightless. Just without a majority rule.
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:11 am
by GreyICE
You'd be shocked and appalled how often scum shoot confirmed town in no-lynching town. What with them all being CONFIRMED TOWN and such.
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:09 am
by Max
↑GreyICE wrote:You'd be shocked and appalled how often scum shoot confirmed town in no-lynching town. What with them all being CONFIRMED TOWN and such.
This is accurate that 99.9% of the time that it's the right move to lynch the confirmed townie. But, if you have a choice between killing Confirmed-DeityKabuto and killing a Glork... I would kill Glork.
Izak made a suggestion to include a role blocker, but I'm unsure if that will ruin the spirit of the setup.
The main issue is that massclaim allows vigs to be protected and docs to just train on each other. Thus, the goons and SK get screwed.
A possibility I thought up was instead of having six docs, have 1-3 blues and 3-5 docs.
So:
1 VT and 5 Docs
2 VT and 4 Docs
3 VT and 3 Docs
This would prevent doc train unless all VTs die. The issue with this is the amount of deaths will be increased significantly.
Perhaps make those VTs into 1-Shot Vested VTs and give one of the mafia a 1-Shot Vest?
Thoughts?
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:14 pm
by izakthegoomba
1) I don't see how introducing VTs would help. The only people who will fakeclaim Doc is the scum, so the same breaking strategy could still be worked. And I dislike that the outcome of that setup could be random.
2) Does that not ruin the spirit of the setup WAY more than an RB would? It's supposed to have crazy night phases, and a big part of that is achieved by giving everyone a power.
I think if this setup is to be fixed AND remain a fun, crazy setup to play, adding another scum PR, probably an RB, is the only way to do it.
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:16 pm
by izakthegoomba
Oh, and just reposting my suggestion here:
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:05 am
by GreyICE
3 Mafia doctors
If a mafia member is targeted by two doctors of opposite alignments, they are unprotected.
That breaks the circle protect strategy, and essentially gives the mafia similar scum protecting power, and MORE town protecting power (for why this is pro-scum, the vig shots were being used as cop investigations - more ways to funk up vig shots is pro scum). It also makes it very possible to 'double protect' a vig target, especially a town vig target, even with two confirmed vigs.
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:13 am
by izakthegoomba
I think I prefer that Docblocker idea, in place of the Roleblocker I put in.
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:16 am
by Shadow Dancer
Adding a single power role such as a mafia role blocker would still have the setup as broken if said PR ever dies...
Maybe making some of the docs jailkeepers would help, maybe also giving the mafia a jailkeeper... But the basic problem to me seems to be that too many identical power roles in a game just don't work - and always for basically the same reason. vig - texas justice, circle shot, docs - see here: Circle protect... Same with trackers or watchers obviously... Too many investigation roles are a problem anyway... We had the discussion about mass roleblockers in the setup uggestion thread... I think for something like this to work you need some special mechanic roles that are designed to limit this kind of breaking strats.
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:27 am
by hitogoroshi
Remember, designing and balancing setups Open setups goes here. I think we're mostly looking at current setups until the backlog is looked at. (That being said, if a setup has two or more nominations in the Open setup thread, feel free to send me a PM and I can talk about it/post it here if it's up to snuff. But I want setups that have already been through some vetting.)
Hoopla, are there any setups I'm supposed to be looking at? I'm afraid I kind of lost where we're at in the thread here.
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:29 pm
by Hoopla
Yes, I've been a bit busy recently, and foolishly decided to play in two mafia games as well which didn't help. I'm going to make a concerted effort in the next couple of days to work on this thread, though.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:28 am
by Hoopla
Holiday time is over. It's time to start setting aside more time for this. I want to make a big effort over the next week to get this done, so any help will be appreciated. Here is what we have for the mids;
C/9 is something I remember seeing some arguments about.
I'm surprised you haven't accepted C9++ simply because of its popularity.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:49 am
by Hoopla
I'm just going to go down the list of unconfirmed setups, so to start with;
Bad Tweed
- Doesn't work with 12 players. Either needs an extra VT or should be scrapped. I'm in favour of the latter, as even if this is were a balanced game, it doesn't seem like an especially fun game. I don't think a 13p version of this would be balanced anyhow. It's optimal for the Tailor to target itself N1 to guarantee it can't be caught and can use its power again later. Having power isolated in two roles really exposes town to lucky nightkills, and although I know this community tends to value the influence of cops highly, I don't think it's enough. Best case scenario is catching two scum from the roles, but this won't happen every game.
Town is almost guaranteed to mislynch D1 as optimal scumplay is claiming Cop which can't be disproved. Hypo-cop claiming strategies
may
be beneficial for town at times, but the risk of narrowing the cops down for scum is too great. Guilties and Innocents are of less value as cops are less sure of their results, and town is less sure of a player actually being a Cop. For example, if a Cop claimed a guilty D2, got that player lynched and they flipped town, town would be in a very tricky situation wondering if the target was tailored or scum was gambiting. The nerfed nature of the Cops (less confirmed status upon claiming, paranoia about results) is good for the game, but doesn't give the town enough power.
I personally don't rate this setup very highly, so I'd like other opinions on this one.
C/9
- Bad setup. Should probably be binned (don't know why I haven't yet). I hope I don't get anybody sticking up for this one, otherwise I'll shoot them.
C9++
- There is another thread on this regarding changes, so I'll bump that and solve it there.
Faith Plus One
- This setup has four variants, so we really ought to just pick one and use it if people like it. I know it was played recently. Is there anyone here that played or read the game? What did they think of the setup? To me, it doesn't have that X-factor about it, and I think there are some people who think %-based roles are kind of meh. It feels a little scum-sided too. Again, would like others to weigh in on this one.
Follow The Cop... Or Not
- Doesn't seemed balanced for an 11-player game. That's one less lynch, and the Cop has two possible ways of collecting false or no results. I don't think I'd want to be town in this setup. Not a fan of this setup, but I think I remember someone liking it?
Friends and Enemies and Enemies/Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy
- Don't need both of these. I'd probably favour the first one out of the two though. Being a mason seems difficult in this game, and you probably wouldn't want to claim it, as you increase your chance of being offed at night by scum, which isn't good in a game dependent on crosskills. I don't think we need a whole heap of 2:2:X setups, but this one seems popular enough.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:50 am
by Hoopla
↑Vi wrote:I'm surprised you haven't accepted C9++ simply because of its popularity.
Yeah, it's very popular. But it does need a revamp.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:01 am
by Quilford
I played Faith Plus One as scum and not only found it incredibly boring but that the winning faction being decided on a 50/50 flip was unfair.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:02 am
by Hoopla
↑Quilford wrote:I played Faith Plus One as scum and not only found it incredibly boring but that the winning faction being decided on a 50/50 flip was unfair.
What happened in the game to make winning/losing 50/50?
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:12 am
by Hoopla
Hey Vi. I've been thinking that the current roster thing is kind of a silly, unnecessary exercise. I feel like the easiest way to determine which games are chosen is to just assign a category (small/mid/large/experimental) to an upcoming mod and just let them pick whatever game they want from that pool. Then once that game has been chosen, it gets locked out for 5 picks (or half the amount of setups within the category) - I don't know yet exactly. This way you get a roster that changes by itself so different games get picked, but there is still an element of popularity involved. Does that make sense?
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:14 am
by Quilford
Cop had been outed as had one of the two faith healers and I was the only scum left.
I successfully killed the cop but he had targeted me that night.
When I went on to kill the faith healers the 50% chance also worked in my favour.